Should there be a caliphate?

[Punished UMN]

Because the last one worked out really well for them didn't it lol

Is the Ottoman Empire not technically classed as the last Caliphate?

Sultan Cruise Ghazi

[Muzehnaya]

... What did you mean by "absolutely" then, lol?

"There should be a Caliphate," not "the establishment of a Caliphate is plausible under extant circumstances."

Ah okay then. Well, I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of one. I think there would be great benefits to a united Middle East, or at least some sort of union between the various countries there to stop the region from spiraling further down into hell.

[Roegerland]

Because the last one worked out really well for them didn't it lol

What was the "last one"?
The Rashidun, Abbasids?

Nope, the last declared "Islamic Caliphate" with a Caliph known to most as the Islamic State.

Or do you mean ISIS? In which case, they aren't Muslims by any measure. They're apostates and they deserved what they got.

By your measure perhaps, they certainly thought they were muslims, so why should I not believe them?

[Darqas]

The first course of action toward some "Islamic rectification" would be the formation of a unified, sovereign Sunni-Islamic military bloc, but the most powerful of the Islamic world would sooner mire in games of petty despotism than pursue any undertaking of the sort.

[Fatimida]

What was the "last one"?
The Rashidun, Abbasids?

Nope, the last declared "Islamic Caliphate" with a Caliph known to most as the Islamic State.

I edited my post to fit this but I'll repeat myself; the "Islamic" state was not Muslim. They were apostates. They repeatedly went against the very basics of the Quran and the Prophet (peace be upon him)'s orders. It's sad they weren't completely destroyed.

[Fatimida]

The first course of action toward some "Islamic rectification" would be the formation of a unified, sovereign Sunni-Islamic military bloc, but the most powerful of the Islamic world would sooner mire in games of petty despotism than pursue any undertaking of the sort.

The Islamic world needs to look past sect. Even as a Shi'a myself, dividing ourselves along that line has not helped either sect.

[The Islands of Versilia]

By the will of God, there will be again. When, I can't say, but it'll rise again. And it'd be the greatest day of my life if I lived to see it rise.

Because the last one worked out really well for them didn't it lol

It’s honestly hilarious that people can even think a medieval relic like a caliphate could rise let alone be at all a world player. It’s frankly delusional, even pitiful.

Besides, I’m completely malevolent to any idea of a caliphate. The people of the Near East and North Africa should think about becoming stable, modern nations rather than reverting to the bloody Middle Ages lmao.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Is the Ottoman Empire not technically classed as the last Caliphate?

Still didn't work out in the end.

Quoted the wrong comment.

Was meant to quote Fatimida.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Is the Ottoman Empire not technically classed as the last Caliphate?

Sultan Cruise Ghazi

wat

[Fatimida]

Because the last one worked out really well for them didn't it lol

It’s honestly hilarious that people can even think a medieval relic like a caliphate could rise let alone be at all a world player. It’s frankly delusional, even pitiful.

Besides, I’m completely malevolent to any idea of a caliphate. The people of the Near East and North Africa should think about becoming stable, modern nations rather than reverting to the bloody Middle Ages lmao.

The last Caliphate died in 1923. That's not the Middle Ages nor does a Caliphate have anything to do with reverting to that era. A Caliphate is, in it's broadest definition, a united state of all Muslim-majority regions and countries. It doesn't even have to be a theocracy in that sense.

[Punished UMN]

Sultan Cruise Ghazi

wat

He was the last one... the last khalifa.

[The Islands of Versilia]

Honestly speaking, this is not the right time to even think about establishing khilafat. This video gives some imaginary ideal which is not even remotely achievable in the present day. And how do you even think we would go about establishing one? That we would all grab guns and start a revolution in some country? That's an absurd idea.

Well it would start with democracies and a few monarchies.

Eventually if any Muslim-majority nation refused to join they could boycott it’s trade and refuse to send military support.

Combined with an Islamic revival, that makes military service for such a divisive, arrogant government unpopular amongst young men and women and eventually they’d join the caliphate just to be protected by it’s army.

Yeah sure buddy and the college student in Starbucks tells me communism is gonna become relevant again

[Resilient Acceleration]

I would seriously like to know how you even plan on doing that.

Well you’d need to get the support of a handful of Muslim countries (say, Jordan, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey).
Jordan might support it because a Hashemite would probably be chosen as Caliph.
Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey don’t have unaccountable rulers so if a caliphate was a popular idea a politician could be elected on that platform.

Also between them the nations I’ve mentioned have enough power to put encourage other nations to be in the caliphate with semi-independent states for defence and economic cooperation (like how the USA started)

Each nation that supports the caliphate would be another domino till eventually it covers all Muslim-majority countries
(As well as countries like Bosnia where they would be a majority if it wasn’t for genocide/settlers).

Indonesian here. The idea of khilafah is a national security threat that already plunge our diverse country into horrific civil wars multiple times, the government view them as an even bigger threat to peace than Papuan separatism and spend a large amount of resources in the prevention. The largest Muslim organization in the world and in here, the NU, is established in 1912 specifically to fight against Arab-sourced Wahhabist fundamentalism and protect Indonesia's unique secular-pluralistic national identity. No.

[The Archregimancy]

Because the last one worked out really well for them didn't it lol

Is the Ottoman Empire not technically classed as the last Caliphate?

Sort of. They were the last Islamic state to have reasonably widespread support for a claim to a caliphate directly descended from the heirs to Muhammed (PBUH). But it wasn't a clear claim; it was based on conquering the Egyptian Mamluks, who had maintained a shadowy Abbasid caliphate in Cairo from 1261 after the 1258 sack of Baghdad had ended the main Abbasid line. But the Ottoman claim was never universally recognised, and the Ottomans themselves were fairly slack about consistently claiming the title until their final century.

There were a couple of unsuccessful attempts to claim the title of Caliph after the 1924 abolition of the Ottoman office, notably the brief attempt by the Hashemite rulers of the Hejaz shortly before they were evicted by the House of Saud, but these didn't come to anything.

The Ottomans conquered the entire Islamic world

That'll come as a surprise to the Persians, Mughals, Omanis, and a fair few others.

[Fatimida]

Is the Ottoman Empire not technically classed as the last Caliphate?

Sort of. They were the last Islamic state to have reasonably widespread support for a claim to a caliphate directly descended from the heirs to Muhammed (PBUH). But it wasn't a clear claim; it was based on conquering the Egyptian Mamluks, who had maintained a shadowy Abbasid caliphate in Cairo from 1261 after the 1258 sack of Baghdad had ended the main Abbasid line. But the Ottoman claim was never universally recognised, and the Ottomans themselves were fairly slack about consistently claiming the title until their final century.

There were a couple of unsuccessful attempts to claim the title of Caliph after the 1924 abolition of the Ottoman office, notably the brief attempt by the Hashemite rulers of the Hejaz shortly before they were evicted by the House of Saud, but these didn't come to anything.

The Ottomans conquered the entire Islamic world

That'll come as a surprise to the Persians, Mughals, Omanis, and a fair few others.

I'll admit I exaggerated but you get the point. They conquered practically the entire Islamic world short of the far eastern fringes of it.
edit: Are you Muslim or just adding the honorific to be respectful?

[The Archregimancy]

It’s honestly hilarious that people can even think a medieval relic like a caliphate could rise let alone be at all a world player. It’s frankly delusional, even pitiful.

Besides, I’m completely malevolent to any idea of a caliphate. The people of the Near East and North Africa should think about becoming stable, modern nations rather than reverting to the bloody Middle Ages lmao.

The last Caliphate died in 1923. That's not the Middle Ages nor does a Caliphate have anything to do with reverting to that era. A Caliphate is, in it's broadest definition, a united state of all Muslim-majority regions and countries. It doesn't even have to be a theocracy in that sense.

Technically, the last widely recognised Caliph (Abdulmejid II) was deposed on 3 March 1924; but he only died in 1944.

But yes, leaving aside whether the office is desirable or not, the last 97 years are the only extended period of time since the foundation of the Rashidun Caliphate that there's been no widely recognised holder of the office in Sunni Islam; so it's a fair point that the title isn't inherently medieval, since it lasted some 450 years into Europe's post-medieval period.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Honestly speaking, this is not the right time to even think about establishing khilafat. This video gives some imaginary ideal which is not even remotely achievable in the present day. And how do you even think we would go about establishing one? That we would all grab guns and start a revolution in some country? That's an absurd idea.

This tbh. I'm not a Muslim, so I'm not especially for having one, but there are some merits it has, the issue is of course that I don't think political Islam or the Islamic world in the middle east has quite recovered from the ideological shock accumulated from the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Sykes-Picot agreement, the Arab-Israeli Wars, the Persian Gulf Wars, and the Arab Spring, and it's unlikely any effort to produce a functional form of political Islam would be either successful or desirable at the moment. When we talk about a Caliphate, OP, we're talking about a large state with hundreds of millions of inhabitants, varying religious sects, different nationalities, and more ideologies than you or I can count. Such a political project would require immense effort and investment, and right now there's so much ideological chaos that the Islamic world has not really recovered from enough to put together a coherent successor to the Caliphates of old.

Nor will it be desireable. Why the fuck should I or my country obey a random bearded boomer from faraway Mecca or Istanbul? We're not economically connected, and our relationship with the US and China is far more important.

[Fatimida]

But yes, leaving aside whether the office is desirable or not, the last 97 years are the only extended period of time since the foundation of the Rashidun Caliphate that there's been no widely recognised holder of the office in Sunni Islam; so it's a fair point that the title isn't inherently medieval, since it lasted some 450 years into Europe's post-medieval period.

In Sunni Islam?

[Vikanias]

On my cold dead hands.

[The Archregimancy]

I'll admit I exaggerated but you get the point. They conquered practically the entire Islamic world short of the far eastern fringes of it.
edit: Are you Muslim or just adding the honorific to be respectful?

The Persian and Mughal Empires are not 'just the far eastern fringes' of Islam, nor would the Ottomans have considered them as such; certainly not the Persians. The Ottomans controlled almost all of the Muslim Mediterranean, but this is not the same as the Muslim world; the Ottoman, Persian, and Mughal Empires were all powerful states (and civilisations).

I'm not Muslim, but I've lived and worked in both the Gulf and Egypt, so use the honorific to be polite when posting in a thread where there likely to be a significant number of Muslim posters writing in religious terms.

[Insaanistan]

Not unless you’re bringing Abu Bakr, Ūmar, Ūthman and Āli back to life, dude. Any Caliphate one would try to establish is not viable. From the nationalistic and sectarian differences exacerbated by colonialism to the discrimination towards minorities faiths in certain Muslim countries, no Caliphate like the Rashidun will exist again. 3 of the 4 Rashidun caliphs were assassinated. Salahuddin died penniless, and Ulu Hakan Abdulhamid II was overthrown (and those two had their fair share of criticizable actions.)

Islam promotes electing leaders, a practice that died out when Yazid took the throne without being elected. Democracy is the way forward. For nations that are presently secular, secular is the way to continue. For those that are not, the best way is the ideals of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Qaid-e-Azam: a state under Muslim rule where all are tolerated.

The caliphs are dead. There shall be no al-Sadiq or Asadullah or al-Ayyubi to lead the Ummah. And when I say Ummah, I mean Ummah as in what was originally meant: all those under the protection of the Muslims, all those who live in peace with those who pray towards Makkah five times a day.

All we can do is wait for the return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), son of Mary (May God be pleased with her), and the Mahdi.

[Fatimida]

This tbh. I'm not a Muslim, so I'm not especially for having one, but there are some merits it has, the issue is of course that I don't think political Islam or the Islamic world in the middle east has quite recovered from the ideological shock accumulated from the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Sykes-Picot agreement, the Arab-Israeli Wars, the Persian Gulf Wars, and the Arab Spring, and it's unlikely any effort to produce a functional form of political Islam would be either successful or desirable at the moment. When we talk about a Caliphate, OP, we're talking about a large state with hundreds of millions of inhabitants, varying religious sects, different nationalities, and more ideologies than you or I can count. Such a political project would require immense effort and investment, and right now there's so much ideological chaos that the Islamic world has not really recovered from enough to put together a coherent successor to the Caliphates of old.

Nor will it be desireable. Why the fuck should I or my country obey a random bearded boomer from faraway Mecca or Istanbul? We're not economically connected, and our relationship with the US and China is far more important.

You're Indonesian, correct? Your people are Muslim. If you are not a Muslim, then you are a minority. By the laws of democracy which I can only assume you support, the needs of the majority are above those of the minority. That's ignoring the economic and political benefit your region could have from unification with a Caliphate. I don't even see why you're adverse to the idea on the basis of not being Muslim given the fact a Caliphate, as I've stated, does not have to be a theocracy by itself.

[The Archregimancy]

But yes, leaving aside whether the office is desirable or not, the last 97 years are the only extended period of time since the foundation of the Rashidun Caliphate that there's been no widely recognised holder of the office in Sunni Islam; so it's a fair point that the title isn't inherently medieval, since it lasted some 450 years into Europe's post-medieval period.

In Sunni Islam?

Shia Islam didn't recognise the Ottomans as Caliphs; nor did the Ibadis, for that matter, but they typically get forgotten. Poor Ibadis.

[Fatimida]

Not unless you’re bringing Abu Bakr, Ūmar, Ūthman and Āli back to life, dude. Any Caliphate one would try to establish is not viable. From the nationalistic and sectarian differences exacerbated by colonialism to the discrimination towards minorities faiths in certain Muslim countries, no Caliphate like the Rashidun will exist again. 3 of the 4 Rashidun caliphs were assassinated. Salahuddin died penniless, and Ulu Hakan Abdulhamid II was overthrown (and those two had their fair share of criticizable actions.)

While I agree with the end of this post, the thread asked whether there SHOULD be, not whether it's viable. Which I don't think it is by worldly means without the guidance of God.

[Fatimida]

In Sunni Islam?

Shia Islam didn't recognise the Ottomans as Caliphs; nor did the Ibadis, for that matter, but they typically get forgotten. Poor Ibadis.

Ibadis are apostates but that's an entirely different discussion that I'm not going into here.
I'm not an expert on late-Ottoman history, but weren't the Persians (at the least) aligned with the Central Powers?