Vatican says anti-hate bill infringes on treaty with Italy

[Luminesa]

You…do realize the Church still functioned even when the Pope was still in Avignon…correct? The reason Avignon was a problem was because there were several…antipopes at the time. Making it difficult for administrative functions to happen.

Notably the Pope is the only government official I know of who has openly called-out the mafia and excommunicated them.

Well Lumi, that aside, the Vatican will continue to have sovereignty within its walls regardless of what’s enacted on Italian soil. Technically, if that bill is enacted, it has no bearing within Vatican City. Outside it’s gates? Well that’s a different matter.

I mean it also wouldn’t be the first time someone tried to storm the Vatican…and failed.

Really still gives me Naruto-runner and Area 51 vibes. Italy is a democratic republic, if there’s a law in question clearly Risottia can just contact his representative and let them know what he thinks.

[Greater Cesnica]

Since the catholic church wants the vatican to be treated as a "nation" then they should also face the consequences of playing nation-games.

Start dictating the terms of what other governments are doing in their own nations, then run the risk of going to war.

Let's see 200 swiss guards deal with an airstrike. If they want to be bigoted haters then keep it inside of their own borders. When they want to play at politics and feist off their hatred as a doctrine to be filled by other nations then they deserve what they get.

You're a real tough guy.

[Ifreann]

If the Vatican is a sovereign state then what business do they have opposing Italian laws?

Nations oppose laws in other nations all the time.

And nations object to other nations trying to influence their laws all the time.

---

No jokes to be made against the Vatican apparently.

Jokes are imperialism.

[Sundiata]

Since the catholic church wants the vatican to be treated as a "nation" then they should also face the consequences of playing nation-games.

Okay.

Start dictating the terms of what other governments are doing in their own nations, then run the risk of going to war.

Or not?

Let's see 200 swiss guards deal with an airstrike. If they want to be bigoted haters then keep it inside of their own borders. When they want to play at politics and feist off their hatred as a doctrine to be filled by other nations then they deserve what they get.

Come on man, leave Pope Francis alone.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Well Lumi, that aside, the Vatican will continue to have sovereignty within its walls regardless of what’s enacted on Italian soil. Technically, if that bill is enacted, it has no bearing within Vatican City. Outside it’s gates? Well that’s a different matter.

I mean it also wouldn’t be the first time someone tried to storm the Vatican…and failed.

Really still gives me Naruto-runner and Area 51 vibes. Italy is a democratic republic, if there’s a law in question clearly Risottia can just contact his representative and let them know what he thinks.

Yep. In essence, calls to kick the pope back to Avignon is a tad much. Italy can enact whatever laws it wants, despite the Holy See’s protestations. The pope is sovereign within the Vatican. Outside it’s another matter. Same as usual. This, if it were to pass, really… changes nothing. *shrug*

[Dylar]

Let's see 200 swiss guards deal with an airstrike. If they want to be bigoted haters then keep it inside of their own borders. When they want to play at politics and feist off their hatred as a doctrine to be filled by other nations then they deserve what they get.

With what? An A-10 that can't even do the job of Close Air Support correctly?

[Ifreann]

Since the catholic church wants the vatican to be treated as a "nation" then they should also face the consequences of playing nation-games.

Okay.

Start dictating the terms of what other governments are doing in their own nations, then run the risk of going to war.

Or not?

Let's see 200 swiss guards deal with an airstrike. If they want to be bigoted haters then keep it inside of their own borders. When they want to play at politics and feist off their hatred as a doctrine to be filled by other nations then they deserve what they get.

Come on man, leave Pope Francis alone.

pls no bulli pope :'(

[Sundiata]

While the violent joke towards the Church joke was originally just a joke, I think it's important to emphasize possible reconciliation between the laws of Italy and the requests of the Vatican. Maybe the problem is with the Italian government's view of human rights compared to how the Catholic Church views human rights.

[Sundiata]

Okay.

Or not?


Come on man, leave Pope Francis alone.

pls no bulli pope :'(

I would like that, it's weird to pray for well-being a man and then see hosility in his direction. Calm down.

[Ifreann]

While the violent joke towards the Church joke was originally just a joke, I think it's important to emphasize possible reconciliation between the laws of Italy and the requests of the Vatican. Maybe the problem is with the Italian government's view of human rights compared to how the Catholic Church views human rights.

Why should Italy care about reconciling their laws with what the Vatican wants? If the Pope doesn't like Italian law then he can stay out of Italy.

[Dylar]

While the violent joke towards the Church joke was originally just a joke, I think it's important to emphasize possible reconciliation between the laws of Italy and the requests of the Vatican. Maybe the problem is with the Italian government's view of human rights compared to how the Catholic Church views human rights.

Why should Italy care about reconciling their laws with what the Vatican wants? If the Pope doesn't like Italian law then he can stay out of Italy.

I mean that's kinda hard to do considering they're surrounded by Italy

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

While the violent joke towards the Church joke was originally just a joke, I think it's important to emphasize possible reconciliation between the laws of Italy and the requests of the Vatican. Maybe the problem is with the Italian government's view of human rights compared to how the Catholic Church views human rights.

If the Holy See is ok with certain human rights violations that the Italian government is against, i don’t see how to “reconcile”. I’m not even sure why the pope is upset, tbh, as this bill, if passed, will only be enacted in Italian soil while he still retains sovereignty within Vatican City. Is the Italian government going to force its laws on a sovereign nation? I don’t think that’s the stated intention.

[Ifreann]

Why should Italy care about reconciling their laws with what the Vatican wants? If the Pope doesn't like Italian law then he can stay out of Italy.

I mean that's kinda hard to do considering they're surrounded by Italy

I'm sure the Pope will find a way to avoid international travel if Italian law disturbs him that much.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

What kind of name is ddl Zan, and is there a place to see it's contents?

Anyway, the church shouldn't be doing this. Regardless of what the bill says, it really shouldn't interfere in other nations business. The bill almost certainly won't infringe on religious rights either.

[Heloin]

I mean that's kinda hard to do considering they're surrounded by Italy

I'm sure the Pope will find a way to avoid international travel if Italian law disturbs him that much.

The papacy invents teleportation.

[Merni]

Since the catholic church wants the vatican to be treated as a "nation" then they should also face the consequences of playing nation-games.

Start dictating the terms of what other governments are doing in their own nations, then run the risk of going to war.

Let's see 200 swiss guards deal with an airstrike. If they want to be bigoted haters then keep it inside of their own borders. When they want to play at politics and feist off their hatred as a doctrine to be filled by other nations then they deserve what they get.

This was probably in a jocular vein, but what you and a few others seem to be forgetting is that 71% of Italians are Catholics, and a large proportion of them would not be OK with their nation bombing one of their most important religious sites and leaders. Most Catholics perhaps don't agree with every one of their church's positions on social issues (something that is common to most religions); all the same, they still have great respect for the Pope. That being the case, any active violence or hostility by the Italian state towards the Catholic Church or the Pope would probably result in the collapse of an already fragile Italian government.

Also, this is not the first nor last time that a nation has commented on another nation's laws or decisions. It happens literally all the time.

[Sundiata]

While the violent joke towards the Church joke was originally just a joke, I think it's important to emphasize possible reconciliation between the laws of Italy and the requests of the Vatican. Maybe the problem is with the Italian government's view of human rights compared to how the Catholic Church views human rights.

If the Holy See is ok with certain human rights violations that the Italian government is against, i don’t see how to “reconcile”. I’m not even sure why the pope is upset, tbh, as this bill, if passed, will only be enacted in Italian soil while he still retains sovereignty within Vatican City. Is the Italian government going to force its laws on a sovereign nation? I don’t think that’s the stated intention.

This is not a question of national sovereignty but instead one of legislative morality. The Vatican does not want to rule any nation but instead align the laws of each nation with a moral standard that is Christian, traditionally Christian. This moral authority of the church comes from God, a higher authority than any state.

[Vassenor]

I think the correct answer by the Italian government should be sending the Bersaglieri to storm the fuck out of St.Peter's and kick the Church all the way back to Avignon, where they should have stayed.
The Esercito is already trained for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5FCmvNO868

When you're so anti-hate that you endorse armed violence against people who disagree with you, to show how very non-hateful you are.

So what gives the Vatican the right to dictate what laws a sovereign nation can pass in its democratically elected legislature?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If the Holy See is ok with certain human rights violations that the Italian government is against, i don’t see how to “reconcile”. I’m not even sure why the pope is upset, tbh, as this bill, if passed, will only be enacted in Italian soil while he still retains sovereignty within Vatican City. Is the Italian government going to force its laws on a sovereign nation? I don’t think that’s the stated intention.

This is not a question of national sovereignty but instead one of legislative morality. The Vatican does not want to rule any nation but instead align the laws of each nation with a moral standard that is Christian, traditionally Christian. This moral authority of the church comes from God, a higher authority than any state.

Not how political treaties work however. It is a question of National sovereignty. The pope has it within Vatican City, parliament has it within Italian soil. Neither has a right to interfere with the other. It’s not about deities, as much as you may insist it is.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

When you're so anti-hate that you endorse armed violence against people who disagree with you, to show how very non-hateful you are.

So what gives the Vatican the right to dictate what laws a sovereign nation can pass in its democratically elected legislature?

The Vatican really shouldn't do it, but it isn't armed violence.

[Ifreann]

What kind of name is ddl Zan...

Disegno di Legge, I think "drafting of law" would be the literal translation.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

What kind of name is ddl Zan...

Disegno di Legge, I think "drafting of law" would be the literal translation.

Oh, it's an acronym. The lower capitalization confused me. Well, that clears up the DDL part, and I already know why Zan was added.

[Merni]

When you're so anti-hate that you endorse armed violence against people who disagree with you, to show how very non-hateful you are.

So what gives the Vatican the right to dictate what laws a sovereign nation can pass in its democratically elected legislature?

The same right that the West has to "dictate" (actually just comment on, which is what the Vatican did) against the anti-gay law that Hungary's parliament recently passed. Nations commenting on another nation's decisions happens all the time -- calling it "dictating" is just hilarious.

[Dylar]

This is not a question of national sovereignty but instead one of legislative morality. The Vatican does not want to rule any nation but instead align the laws of each nation with a moral standard that is Christian, traditionally Christian. This moral authority of the church comes from God, a higher authority than any state.

Not how political treaties work however. It is a question of National sovereignty. The pope has it within Vatican City, parliament has it within Italian soil. Neither has a right to interfere with the other. It’s not about deities, as much as you may insist it is.

To be fair, no nation has a right to interfere with another nation's internal affairs, but literally every nation on this globe does it anyway

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Not how political treaties work however. It is a question of National sovereignty. The pope has it within Vatican City, parliament has it within Italian soil. Neither has a right to interfere with the other. It’s not about deities, as much as you may insist it is.

To be fair, no nation has a right to interfere with another nation's internal affairs, but literally every nation on this globe does it anyway

True, but I fail to see how this changes anything. Italy and Vatican City are separate governmental entities.