Vatican says anti-hate bill infringes on treaty with Italy

[Comfed]

Of course the leadership of an intolerant sect of Christianity opposes this.

[Heloin]

This got heated lmao
I personally agree with the Vatican's stance on it but I don't see what they seek to gain from it besides possibly decreasing popular support for it given the majority of Italy is Catholic.
I also don't see why Italy should start a war over it.

It’s just OP’s wording, perhaps. I doubt Italy has any real intention to start a war with Vatican City.

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

[Postauthoritarian America]

So what gives the Vatican the right to dictate what laws a sovereign nation can pass in its democratically elected legislature?

The Lateran Treaty of 1929, as noted in literally the second paragraph of the article, which is explicitly recognized by the Italian Constitution. Dictating what sovereign nations can and cannot do is, in fact, the exact point of treaties.

The specific issue is not with the hate crimes section, but the requirements the law places on Catholic-run schools, which the Vatican argues runs afoul of the treaty, which contains sections such as Article 36, cited here:

Art. 36: Italy, considering the teaching of Christian doctrine according to the form received by Catholic tradition as the foundation and the crown of public instruction, agrees that religious instruction imparted in the public elementary schools shall have a further development in the secondary schools according to a programme to be established by an accord between the Holy See and the State.

The Lateran treaty's place in the Constitution is explicitly referenced in Article 7.

Art. 7
The State and the Catholic Church are independent and sovereign, each within its own sphere. Their relations are regulated by the Lateran pacts. Amendments to such Pacts which are accepted by both parties shall not require the procedure of constitutional amendments.

As per the cited Lateran pacts, certain matters of schooling fall under the Catholic 'sphere', and thus the Vatican is not only well within their rights to object, it would be expected of any nation to take issue with another nation potentially violating a bilateral treaty.

The 1929 concordat was modified in the mid-1980s to, among other things, depose Catholicism from its former status as a state religion.

The main objections from the Holy See seem to be the articles relating to freedom of expression. One could argue no one is removing any Catholic's freedom to express anything they choose; as long as they are willing to face the consequences under Italian domestic law (should it ever pass) for such expression.

Divorce is still legal in Italy; I can't find any reference to the Vatican delivering a diplomatic note to the Italian Government on the subject.

Various nations can, and have, objected to various laws in various other nations. The practical effect of that is generally close to nil. The Vatican's public objection to the anti-homophobia law under consideration is pretty obviously a blatant attempt to affect its chances of passage negatively in a nation that is largely Catholic.

Assuming the law eventually passes, and assuming some Catholic (call him Giuseppe) is hailed into court for violating it, it would be up to Giuseppe's attorneys to argue that the Italian law somehow violated the concordat and therefore the charges should be dropped. I'm not even a lawya in the USA so I have no idea what the chances of that might be; f'rinstance I have no clue about the status of international treaties in Italian law.

According to the modified concordat linked above, "Should any difficulties in interpretation or application of the above provisions arise in the future, the Holy See and the Italian Republic shall entrust the search for an amicable solution to a joint Commission appointed by them." So there's that.

That the Vatican sees nothing wrong with arguing in favor of homophobia is imo particularly telling. I'd need some convincing that it's God's will or some kind of moral necessity to hate and fear people for who they are and/or who they choose to love.

[Immortan Khan]

The main objections from the Holy See seem to be the articles relating to freedom of expression. One could argue no one is removing any Catholic's freedom to express anything they choose; as long as they are willing to face the consequences under Italian domestic law (should it ever pass) for such expression.

Hello Idi, Idi, Idi Amin most amazin' man.

[Lady Victory]

It’s just OP’s wording, perhaps. I doubt Italy has any real intention to start a war with Vatican City.

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

[Heloin]

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

They also number 135 men. I'm not casting shade but they are 750 times smaller than the Italian Army.

[Rusozak]

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

All Italy has to do is close the border and cut off the utilities.

[Immortan Khan]

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

They also number 135 men. I'm not casting shade but they are 750 times smaller than the Italian Army.

The Italian Army has a pretty poor record though. Wouldn't be the first time they outnumbered someone and ran away. Hell they used to pay the Taliban to not attack them which completely fucked over the French when they took over from the Italians and the bribes stopped.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

How long did they hold of the French revolutionaries for?

[Lady Victory]

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

They also number 135 men. I'm not casting shade but they are 750 times smaller than the Italian Army.

To be serious for a minute, the Italian Army has a rather poor track record when it comes to facing armies of inferior size.

[Lady Victory]

I dunno the Swiss Guard doesn't fool around.

How long did they hold of the French revolutionaries for?

I'm not sure to what you're referring to seeing as the Swiss Guard are based in the Vatican and French Revolutionaries never besieged the Vatican as far as I know.

[Kubra]

How long did they hold of the French revolutionaries for?

I'm not sure to what you're referring to seeing as the Swiss Guard are based in the Vatican and French Revolutionaries never besieged the Vatican as far as I know.

A few hundred were assigned to guard the Tuileries Palace during the hubbub.
They weren't an exclusively vatican thing, the swiss were basically europes varangians for a while.

[Immortan Khan]

How long did they hold of the French revolutionaries for?

I'm not sure to what you're referring to seeing as the Swiss Guard are based in the Vatican and French Revolutionaries never besieged the Vatican as far as I know.

I think they are referring to the Swiss Guards of the Ancien Regime.

[Fatimida]

This got heated lmao
I personally agree with the Vatican's stance on it but I don't see what they seek to gain from it besides possibly decreasing popular support for it given the majority of Italy is Catholic.
I also don't see why Italy should start a war over it.

It’s just OP’s wording, perhaps. I doubt Italy has any real intention to start a war with Vatican City.

Oh of course not. The Italian PM/President is not childish enough to start a war over at worst an insult. Even if they did Italy would suffer for it in every way if it didn't face outright civil war or at the least civil violence. I just found it funny how heated an online discussion over something that doesn't affect most of the people in the discussion got.

[Heloin]

They also number 135 men. I'm not casting shade but they are 750 times smaller than the Italian Army.

The Italian Army has a pretty poor record though. Wouldn't be the first time they outnumbered someone and ran away.

Last time they fought the Swiss Guard in Rome the Papal States ceased to exist.

Hell they used to pay the Taliban to not attack them which completely fucked over the French when they took over from the Italians and the bribes stopped.

A rumor that the French government consider lies from British tabloids.

[Immortan Khan]

The Italian Army has a pretty poor record though. Wouldn't be the first time they outnumbered someone and ran away.

Last time they fought the Swiss Guard in Rome the Papal States ceased to exist.

Hell they used to pay the Taliban to not attack them which completely fucked over the French when they took over from the Italians and the bribes stopped.

A rumor that the French government consider lies from British tabloids.

The ISAF had a bad habit of scrubbing a lot of things it didn't want people knowing about. Openly admitting that the Italians actually bribed insurgents would have been a major diplomatic incident. What we know is that the AO of the Italians was almost too calm and then lit up once the French took over despite being seemingly pacified.

[Heloin]

Last time they fought the Swiss Guard in Rome the Papal States ceased to exist.


A rumor that the French government consider lies from British tabloids.

The ISAF had a bad habit of scrubbing a lot of things it didn't want people knowing about. Openly admitting that the Italians actually bribed insurgents would have been a major diplomatic incident. What we know is that the AO of the Italians was almost too calm and then lit up once the French took over despite being seemingly pacified.

That's a roundabout reasoning to bring up a long dead rumor with no proof to back it.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It’s just OP’s wording, perhaps. I doubt Italy has any real intention to start a war with Vatican City.

I mean, if Italy does actually consider military actions out of the blue we could have a war shorter than the Anglo-Zanzibar War.

Or the Six Day War.

[Major-Tom]

The Vatican interferes in the political process of many countries, not just Italy. This interference is (usually**) limited to whining and moaning like they are now in this scenario, which is annoying, but not really grounds for Italy to respond with...anything other than a statement telling them to screw off?

Like, it's the Vatican. Most of the time, it's easier to let them shoot themselves in the foot, no?

[Pasong Tirad]

No jokes to be made against the Vatican apparently.

How do you fit a pope into a volkswagen

[Ayytaly]

No jokes to be made against the Vatican apparently.

How do you fit a pope into a volkswagen

You rename it the Popeswagen and it turns into a tank, Girls und Panzer-style.

[USS Monitor]

Sure are a lot of people unironically endorsing imperialism against a sovereign nation.

Very disturbing.

If the Vatican is a sovereign state then what business do they have opposing Italian laws?

Italy's free to pass the bill anyway.

[Suriyanakhon]

Sure are a lot of people unironically endorsing imperialism against a sovereign nation.

Very disturbing.

A theocratic state that occupies rightfully Italian soil.

[WayNeacTia]

I think the correct answer by the Italian government should be sending the Bersaglieri to storm the fuck out of St.Peter's and kick the Church all the way back to Avignon, where they should have stayed.

That's a bit of an over-reaction, isn't it? Just cut off their power or something.

Like really. Just take away their WIFI. Seriously. Italy loses or performs very poorly in like every war they are in.

[Temple State]

Occasionally, the Vatican awakens out of their semi-liberal slumber and does something right.