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American Politics Thread VI: Can't We All Just Get Along?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Is it no longer possible to collaborate with political opponents at this stage?

It is no longer possible.
232
36%
It is possible.
166
25%
Collaboration is possible if we have similar economic views.
47
7%
Collaboration is possible if we have similar cultural/social views.
106
16%
Why would I collaborate with anyone? Going monke is the best way forward.
102
16%
 
Total votes : 653

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Shazbotdom
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Anarchy

Postby Shazbotdom » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:43 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Kowani wrote:Trump supporters are now going door to door in Pennsylvania demanding to know which candidate people backed


Donald Trump supporters calling themselves an "election integrity committee" are going door to door in Pennsylvania and demanding to know whom residents voted for in the November election. York County president commissioner Julie Wheeler, a Republican, said she received numerous calls about alleged voter intimidation by members of the so-called committee, and has referred the matter to law enforcement, the York Dispatch reported Thursday. Wheeler added that the committee has no affiliation with county government.

County officials are currently weighing whether to comply with a "forensic audit" of the 2020 election spearheaded by GOP state Sen. Doug Mastriano, based on the former president's false claims of widespread fraud. Chad Baker, chair of the Democratic Party of York County, said members of the "election integrity committee" appear to be targeting Democrats. "There is an intimidation factor, and that's what their intent is," Baker said. "The timing of this doesn't seem suspect given the recent request of the audit by Sen. Mastriano."

>rawstory
Oh, so this is a lie then


I mean, it is being reported by a few different news outlets.

https://news.yahoo.com/police-notified-election-integrity-committee-224300748.html
https://www.abc27.com/news/local/york/york-leaders-call-cops-if-election-integrity-committee-knocks-on-your-door/
https://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvania/mc-nws-pa-york-election-integrity-20210729-zqf4ipu6yzfnfnt7cbcyknknwq-story.html
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/news/local/2021/07/29/election-integrity-committee-york-county-accused-voter-intimidation/5399739001/

Doesn't seem like it's fake to me if it's being reported by a few different outlets.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:48 pm


Proctopeo wrote:
Kowani wrote:yeah man its not like there's a link to a local news site running the story on the page

Ah, my mistake. Generally when it's some tabloid like Rawstory I assume it's mostly falsehoods mixed in with one or two partial truths for flavor.

He did admit his mistake. Seems that he had more trouble with the source than the story
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Shazbotdom
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Postby Shazbotdom » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:00 pm

Thermodolia wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:Ah, my mistake. Generally when it's some tabloid like Rawstory I assume it's mostly falsehoods mixed in with one or two partial truths for flavor.

He did admit his mistake. Seems that he had more trouble with the source than the story


I noticed that after I posted.
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Corrian
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Postby Corrian » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:29 pm

Man the cops in Washington are being a bunch of whiny manbabies about our new police laws. And we're supposed to trust a bunch of toddlers to defend us?
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:39 pm

Sex is great. But have you tried data visualizations of partisan spatial segregation?
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Sincluda
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Postby Sincluda » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:42 pm

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Bahia Roja
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Postby Bahia Roja » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:45 pm

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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm

Picairn wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:I'm not lying. Again, the circumstances are thus: a representative does not, 100%, support everything championed by the head(s) of the party, and is being declared a "secret member" of the other party. Republicans did it under Trump. Democrats (or people who broadly support them) are doing it right here, under Biden.

Overtly simplistic narratives created for a specific agenda aren't true in any circumstances.

It's simplistic, to be sure, but not overly. Whether or not it's """"deserved"""" in one case or another is purely a matter of ideology, and not fact.

Sinema has been going further right in recent years. She used to be a social worker and a Green Party member before joining the Democratic Party in 2004. She has moved from supporting left-wing positions in the 2000s to becoming one of the most conservative Democrats in Congress today. Even Manchin of all people is on board with the recon bill. What does that say about Sinema? My remark that Sinema at this point is a Republican-lite seems very much in line with her voting record and statements.

And your evidence for any of this?

I can't tell if this is a terrible attempt at gaslighting me, or a skilled attempt at maintaining your own delusions.

The confusion is mutual, I can't tell if you are deliberately baiting people or merely spreading propaganda.

I'm stating observations based off of the past several pages. It's not baiting or propaganda. Commenting on a group acting like the group they despise may lead to some uncomfortable revelations, but I'd say it's something worthy of being said.

I've run out of synonyms here, but to circle back to my original point: Sinema not being in utter, undying agreement with the Democrat party bigwigs doesn't make her a Republican; such intense loyalty is what is being demanded of her by users here for... some fucking reason, but it's unwarranted.

Corrian wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Well the female senator from Arizona pitched a fit about it and threatened to vote against it if it wasn’t watered down more than it is.

Then the republicans kept filibustering everything but Biden doesn’t support filibuster reform because his mind is stuck in the 90s back when the GOP wasn’t batshit insane and still thinks he can work with them.

I seriously need to get the fuck out of this useless ass country. Its a joke. I had a moment of hope, but man, it seems we're in a perpetual state of getting nothing done.

Fret not, the rest of the world is worse ;)
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Corrian
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Postby Corrian » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:19 pm

Proctopeo wrote:Fret not, the rest of the world is worse ;)

No, its not. Not in the least.

A lot of places are, yes, but there's dozens of countries I could go to that would still be better than here.
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Bahia Roja
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Postby Bahia Roja » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:33 pm

Proctopeo wrote:Fret not, the rest of the world is worse ;)


lol, no... there's a bunch of countries that are doing better than us.
Last edited by Bahia Roja on Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:50 pm

Kowani wrote:Trump supporters are now going door to door in Pennsylvania demanding to know which candidate people backed


Donald Trump supporters calling themselves an "election integrity committee" are going door to door in Pennsylvania and demanding to know whom residents voted for in the November election. York County president commissioner Julie Wheeler, a Republican, said she received numerous calls about alleged voter intimidation by members of the so-called committee, and has referred the matter to law enforcement, the York Dispatch reported Thursday. Wheeler added that the committee has no affiliation with county government.

County officials are currently weighing whether to comply with a "forensic audit" of the 2020 election spearheaded by GOP state Sen. Doug Mastriano, based on the former president's false claims of widespread fraud. Chad Baker, chair of the Democratic Party of York County, said members of the "election integrity committee" appear to be targeting Democrats. "There is an intimidation factor, and that's what their intent is," Baker said. "The timing of this doesn't seem suspect given the recent request of the audit by Sen. Mastriano."


This is highly illegal. They should lock up anyone participating in this harassment campaign.
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Kilobugya
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Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:17 am

Proctopeo wrote:Fret not, the rest of the world is worse ;)


Well, the parts of the world that the US (or another "Western" country) bombed back to the stone age, or in which they supported coups and dictators, sure. And a few others too, I've to admit.

But not all of the world, no. Most of Western/Nothern Europe is actually doing better (despite all of their shortcomings and problems) than USA. Canada is also doing better too.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:24 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Fret not, the rest of the world is worse ;)


Well, the parts of the world that the US (or another "Western" country) bombed back to the stone age, or in which they supported coups and dictators, sure. And a few others too, I've to admit.

But not all of the world, no. Most of Western/Nothern Europe is actually doing better (despite all of their shortcomings and problems) than USA. Canada is also doing better too.

Eh I wouldn’t say that Canada is doing better.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:34 am

Proctopeo wrote:It's simplistic, to be sure, but not overly. Whether or not it's """"deserved"""" in one case or another is purely a matter of ideology, and not fact.

Oh sure, the most effective propaganda always has a kernel of truth in it after all.

And your evidence for any of this?

This is Sinema in the 2000s:
The New York Times wrote:When Kyrsten Sinema began her rise in Arizona politics in the early 2000s, she was a Ralph Nader supporter and local spokeswoman for the Green Party who worked to repeal the death penalty and organized antiwar protests after the Sept. 11 attacks.

CNN wrote:Sinema, a former Green Party spokeswoman in Arizona who at the age of 25 in 2001 and 2002 ran and lost races for local office as an independent. She had moved to Arizona in 1995 and worked as a social worker.

When George W. Bush was elected president, Sinema quickly began to make a name for herself in the state with left-wing activism. In the run-up to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Sinema, then a law student at Arizona State University, was a frequent organizer of anti-war rallies, organizing 15 by the start of the Iraq War.

Sinema would later boast on a progressive message board in 2006 of her opposition to Afghanistan from the start and continued opposition, saying she opposed war in all forms.

Her biggest anti-war event was a February 15, 2003, protest in Patriot's Square Park in Phoenix. Flyers, as first reported by CNN's KFile, distributed by an anti-war group led by Sinema depicted a US soldier as a menacing skeleton inflicting "U.S. terror" in Iraq and the Middle East.

Sinema wrote:A huge dollar bill is the most accurate way to teach children the real motto of the United States: In the Almighty Dollar We Trust [...] Until the average American realizes that capitalism damages her livelihood while augmenting the livelihoods of the wealthy, the Almighty Dollar will continue to rule. It certainly is not ruling in our favor.

She co-sponsored a bill urging adoption of the DREAM Act in 2006 and campaigned against Proposition 107 and 102, which would have banned recognition of same-sex marriages. In 2008, she chaired Protect Arizona’s Freedom, the coalition that defeated Ward Connerly’s effort to place an initiative on the state ballot to eliminate equal opportunity programs. She sponsored a bill to give in-state tuition to veterans in 2010.

Following her election to the US House of Representatives in 2012, she generally shifted towards the center, by joining the conservative Blue Dog Democrats faction. In 2018 she voted for Trump's policies an appalling 60% of the time. In that same year she voted for the Crapo bill which rolled back some of Dodd-Frank regulations. Then there's the $15 minimum wage vote and the opposition to the infrastructure recon bill.

Sinema of the past and Sinema of today (who voted down a $15 minimum wage and unsupported the infrastructure recon bill even though freaking Manchin supports it) seem like two different person.

I'm stating observations based off of the past several pages. It's not baiting or propaganda. Commenting on a group acting like the group they despise may lead to some uncomfortable revelations, but I'd say it's something worthy of being said.

I've run out of synonyms here, but to circle back to my original point: Sinema not being in utter, undying agreement with the Democrat party bigwigs doesn't make her a Republican; such intense loyalty is what is being demanded of her by users here for... some fucking reason, but it's unwarranted.

My original comment is that she at this point "is very much a Republican-lite", which isn't far off from her voting record and statements.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 am

California Supreme Court rules that prisoners are entitled to a lawyer when challenging their murder convictions for killings that others committed

California prisoners are entitled to a lawyer when they challenge their murder convictions for killings that others committed, the state Supreme Court ruled Monday.

The court’s ruling means that hundreds of inmates who want to use a 2-year-old law to fight their convictions have the right to court-appointed attorneys to argue their cases, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

SB1437, which took effect in 2019, narrowed a California law that permitted murder convictions for anyone involved in a robbery, burglary or other serious felony where someone died — regardless of whether they actually committed the killing.

SB1437 permitted a murder conviction only for someone who intended the killing and directed and aided in it or acted with “reckless indifference to human life.” Hundreds of prisoners challenged their convictions and qualified for legal representation. However, most state appellate courts refused to require court-appointed lawyers before a lower court decided whether the challenge should be allowed to proceed.

More than 300 challenges that were dismissed are now before the California Supreme Court, the Chronicle said.

Monday’s ruling said that an inmate who hadn’t killed anyone and was fighting a murder conviction was entitled to an attorney to help them argue in the initial hearing that their case meets the basic requirements of the law.

The case was filed on behalf of Vince E. Lewis, who was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for the 2012 gang shooting of a woman by another gang member while Lewis waited in a car.

“The Legislature designed this law to give it as broad application as possible, to identify people who should be serving sentences for lesser crimes that they actually committed and not for murders that someone else committed,” said his attorney, Robert Bacon. “Too many courts made it unreasonably hard for them to even get in the courthouse door.” The author of the law, State Sen. Nancy Skinner, D-Berkeley, argued in a court filing that many inmates weren’t capable of handling the complexities of legal issues on their own.
“Many people in our prisons cannot read. Many people in our prison system have a limited education. Many people in our prisons have limited English comprehension. Many people in our prisons have intellectual disabilities or have been diagnosed with a mental disorder,” Skinner said in the filing.

The state attorney general’s office, which argued for upholding Lewis’ conviction, declined to comment on the ruling, the Chronicle said.
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Kilobugya
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Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:43 am

Thermodolia wrote:Eh I wouldn’t say that Canada is doing better.


Well, it has universal healthcare, higher HDI, higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, lower poverty rate, lower murder rate, lower incarceration rate, ... by about all metric except raw GDP Canada is doing better than USA.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:21 am

Kowani wrote:California Supreme Court rules that prisoners are entitled to a lawyer when challenging their murder convictions for killings that others committed

California prisoners are entitled to a lawyer when they challenge their murder convictions for killings that others committed, the state Supreme Court ruled Monday.

The court’s ruling means that hundreds of inmates who want to use a 2-year-old law to fight their convictions have the right to court-appointed attorneys to argue their cases, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

SB1437, which took effect in 2019, narrowed a California law that permitted murder convictions for anyone involved in a robbery, burglary or other serious felony where someone died — regardless of whether they actually committed the killing.

SB1437 permitted a murder conviction only for someone who intended the killing and directed and aided in it or acted with “reckless indifference to human life.” Hundreds of prisoners challenged their convictions and qualified for legal representation. However, most state appellate courts refused to require court-appointed lawyers before a lower court decided whether the challenge should be allowed to proceed.

More than 300 challenges that were dismissed are now before the California Supreme Court, the Chronicle said.

Monday’s ruling said that an inmate who hadn’t killed anyone and was fighting a murder conviction was entitled to an attorney to help them argue in the initial hearing that their case meets the basic requirements of the law.

The case was filed on behalf of Vince E. Lewis, who was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for the 2012 gang shooting of a woman by another gang member while Lewis waited in a car.

“The Legislature designed this law to give it as broad application as possible, to identify people who should be serving sentences for lesser crimes that they actually committed and not for murders that someone else committed,” said his attorney, Robert Bacon. “Too many courts made it unreasonably hard for them to even get in the courthouse door.” The author of the law, State Sen. Nancy Skinner, D-Berkeley, argued in a court filing that many inmates weren’t capable of handling the complexities of legal issues on their own.
“Many people in our prisons cannot read. Many people in our prison system have a limited education. Many people in our prisons have limited English comprehension. Many people in our prisons have intellectual disabilities or have been diagnosed with a mental disorder,” Skinner said in the filing.

The state attorney general’s office, which argued for upholding Lewis’ conviction, declined to comment on the ruling, the Chronicle said.

Wait California wasn’t doing what?! Where they seriously denying legal representation? Jesus
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 am

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:What an anaemic plan.

It gets better. I'm sure the Republicans will vote it down and it passes with all Democratic votes, meaning it got watered down for nothing, and the out of touch DNC will call it a victory.

Almost as if the Democrats never really wanted to deliver on their promises and are glad to have the excuse of bipartisanship for why they're hacking massive chunks out of the infrastructure bill.


Picairn wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:It's simplistic, to be sure, but not overly. Whether or not it's """"deserved"""" in one case or another is purely a matter of ideology, and not fact.

Oh sure, the most effective propaganda always has a kernel of truth in it after all.

And your evidence for any of this?

This is Sinema in the 2000s:
The New York Times wrote:When Kyrsten Sinema began her rise in Arizona politics in the early 2000s, she was a Ralph Nader supporter and local spokeswoman for the Green Party who worked to repeal the death penalty and organized antiwar protests after the Sept. 11 attacks.

CNN wrote:Sinema, a former Green Party spokeswoman in Arizona who at the age of 25 in 2001 and 2002 ran and lost races for local office as an independent. She had moved to Arizona in 1995 and worked as a social worker.

When George W. Bush was elected president, Sinema quickly began to make a name for herself in the state with left-wing activism. In the run-up to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Sinema, then a law student at Arizona State University, was a frequent organizer of anti-war rallies, organizing 15 by the start of the Iraq War.

Sinema would later boast on a progressive message board in 2006 of her opposition to Afghanistan from the start and continued opposition, saying she opposed war in all forms.

Her biggest anti-war event was a February 15, 2003, protest in Patriot's Square Park in Phoenix. Flyers, as first reported by CNN's KFile, distributed by an anti-war group led by Sinema depicted a US soldier as a menacing skeleton inflicting "U.S. terror" in Iraq and the Middle East.

Sinema wrote:A huge dollar bill is the most accurate way to teach children the real motto of the United States: In the Almighty Dollar We Trust [...] Until the average American realizes that capitalism damages her livelihood while augmenting the livelihoods of the wealthy, the Almighty Dollar will continue to rule. It certainly is not ruling in our favor.

She co-sponsored a bill urging adoption of the DREAM Act in 2006 and campaigned against Proposition 107 and 102, which would have banned recognition of same-sex marriages. In 2008, she chaired Protect Arizona’s Freedom, the coalition that defeated Ward Connerly’s effort to place an initiative on the state ballot to eliminate equal opportunity programs. She sponsored a bill to give in-state tuition to veterans in 2010.

Following her election to the US House of Representatives in 2012, she generally shifted towards the center, by joining the conservative Blue Dog Democrats faction. In 2018 she voted for Trump's policies an appalling 60% of the time. In that same year she voted for the Crapo bill which rolled back some of Dodd-Frank regulations. Then there's the $15 minimum wage vote and the opposition to the infrastructure recon bill.

Sinema of the past and Sinema of today (who voted down a $15 minimum wage and unsupported the infrastructure recon bill even though freaking Manchin supports it) seem like two different person.

I'm stating observations based off of the past several pages. It's not baiting or propaganda. Commenting on a group acting like the group they despise may lead to some uncomfortable revelations, but I'd say it's something worthy of being said.

I've run out of synonyms here, but to circle back to my original point: Sinema not being in utter, undying agreement with the Democrat party bigwigs doesn't make her a Republican; such intense loyalty is what is being demanded of her by users here for... some fucking reason, but it's unwarranted.

My original comment is that she at this point "is very much a Republican-lite", which isn't far off from her voting record and statements.

We may also wish to recall that video of Sinema voting against raising the minimum wage, despite campaigning on promises to raise it. Just before her vote, she can be seen trying to get Mitch McConnell's attention. She wanted him to see her voting with him and against her party. Not what we'd expect of someone who just happens not to agree with her party on the particular issue at hand.
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Berhakonia
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Postby Berhakonia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:11 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Idk why some people think that being a member of a religion is the same as being an expert on it.


I remember once having to explain (me, the atheist) to a South American friend, who self-identify as catholic, that Easter was a holiday because that's when Jesus is supposed to have been crucified (on Friday, hence why are supposed to not eat too much, as it's a mourning day) and then resurrected (on Monday, hence why that day you're supposed to celebrate, because it was a miracle).

I'll take things that never happened for 500, Alex
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Berhakonia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:15 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Eh I wouldn’t say that Canada is doing better.


Well, it has universal healthcare, higher HDI, higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, lower poverty rate, lower murder rate, lower incarceration rate, ... by about all metric except raw GDP Canada is doing better than USA.

Honestly rather get murdered than live in the cesspit known as Toronto
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The United Confederacy of Texas
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Posts: 873
Founded: Sep 06, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The United Confederacy of Texas » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:05 am

Kilobugya wrote:


Sometimes I wonder if Ted Cruz is not actively competing for the "most hated Senator" title.

I mean, everyone hates him, even here in Texas: he only gets the Republican vote because he went all sycophant for Trump and also because half the state still gets palpitations the moment someone says "Democrat."


Not gonna lie, seeing any potential dunking on Abbott brings a smile to my face.
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Kubra
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Posts: 14814
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kubra » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:07 am

Berhakonia wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
Well, it has universal healthcare, higher HDI, higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, lower poverty rate, lower murder rate, lower incarceration rate, ... by about all metric except raw GDP Canada is doing better than USA.

Honestly rather get murdered than live in the cesspit known as Toronto
aw Toronto ain't bad
Weird drive thrus tho
The working class can kiss my ass
I've got the Foreman's job at last!

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Austreylia
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Posts: 842
Founded: Mar 07, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Austreylia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 am

North Washington Republic wrote:This is highly illegal. They should lock up anyone participating in this harassment campaign.

Funny that the article doesn't mention how many houses this occurred at. I'd wager that a few people knocked at the doors of a dozen or so houses, and that was that.

Sensationalism at its finest from the anti-Trump community. Again.
...we do a little trolling, it's called we do a little trolling.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 147634
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:13 am

Austreylia wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:This is highly illegal. They should lock up anyone participating in this harassment campaign.

Funny that the article doesn't mention how many houses this occurred at. I'd wager that a few people knocked at the doors of a dozen or so houses, and that was that.

Sensationalism at its finest from the anti-Trump community. Again.

What does it matter how many houses this occurred at?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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Austreylia
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Posts: 842
Founded: Mar 07, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Austreylia » Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:17 am

Ifreann wrote:What does it matter how many houses this occurred at?

Because the headline is quite misleading. It acts as if there are roving platoons of trump supporters intimidating people across the state.

It really just happened to a few dozen households in one county.
...we do a little trolling, it's called we do a little trolling.

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