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American Politics Thread VI: Can't We All Just Get Along?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Is it no longer possible to collaborate with political opponents at this stage?

It is no longer possible.
232
36%
It is possible.
166
25%
Collaboration is possible if we have similar economic views.
47
7%
Collaboration is possible if we have similar cultural/social views.
106
16%
Why would I collaborate with anyone? Going monke is the best way forward.
102
16%
 
Total votes : 653

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Merrill
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Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Merrill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:19 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Merrill wrote:
I'm not an Objectivist. Rand rejected private charity, I wish we had more of it. I have an optimistic view of humanity. People will take care of their neighbors, they just need the boot off of their neck so that they can. People miss an important point in the Parable of the Good Samaritan: he had MONEY! He had enough to spare, he could CHOOSE to help! We need a robust, unfettered economy. Prosperity reduces poverty.

Why are so many of you so pessimistic? You seem to believe that people won't help others unless they are compelled to by the government.

Because many won't help or at least not enough. When we impose tax cuts and deregulation, most people don't benefit but the ultra-wealthy, and they buy more yachts than help those in need. We live in an era where a handful of people own more than half the world's population. How is that acceptable? It's not, and I'm hardly a communist.


Tax rates are not the reason for the accumulation of wealth. Monetary policy, specifically fiat money is more to blame. Absurd levels of regulation also contribute. When property rights are respected, families grow generational wealth. When it is easier to start a business, more people are independent. When the government doesn't MANDATE purchasing insurance, or vaccines, the barons of "healthcare" don't end up more rich and powerful.

Those of us who value liberty don't say that the world is perfect as it is. We agree that there are problems to be solved. We just disagree as to the solution. Taking the wealth from the rich won't help the poor beyond an immediate short term. In the long term, everyone is worse off because prosperity has been reduced.
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Exalted Inquellian State
Minister
 
Posts: 3417
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm

Merrill wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Indeed. We pay more when we eliminate social assistance programs. Incarcerating someone costs more than providing social services that can reduce their chances of being incarcerated


Prison in the US is an abomination. There should be fewer laws, the only crimes should be direct harm to others. There should be no prisons, only punishments. Locking someone up doesn't do anything for the victim. Theft should be repaid. Assault should be flogging, plus monetary recompense. Murder should result in slavery to the victims family to replace (as much as possible) the life taken.

How would that help!? What did the family do?
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Washington Resistance Army
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:21 pm

For the love of god ignore the very obvious bait lol
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41911
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:21 pm

Merrill wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:Only because we allow it. An extensive social housing and welfare program would drastically reduce, if not eliminate, hunger.


The US has spent more than 23 TRILLION dollars since 1965 on anti poverty programs. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?

not having them be sabotaged by ideologues and racists would probably have gone a long way to making them more beneficial

North Washington Republic wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:People have always been unimaginative about the future, but the future's always been something beyond imagination.


The people behind the status quo have always spent unfathomable sums of wealth to spread these beliefs and undermine new revolutions, but things will change whether you like it or not.


Of course things change, but change for change sake isn’t always good and should require the consent of the govern, that is why we have elections. We shouldn’t be chasing unachievable pipe dreams when we can implement reforms such as a wealth tax. We’ve had 90% tax rates for the rich in the past, and we can do it again to pay for services that the poor and marginalized communities need in order to live.

Basic human nature and pure Marxism is like oil and water.

do you think there might be a reason that this status quo doesn't exist anymore
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Merrill
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Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Merrill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:26 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Merrill wrote:
I'm not an Objectivist. Rand rejected private charity, I wish we had more of it. I have an optimistic view of humanity. People will take care of their neighbors, they just need the boot off of their neck so that they can. People miss an important point in the Parable of the Good Samaritan: he had MONEY! He had enough to spare, he could CHOOSE to help! We need a robust, unfettered economy. Prosperity reduces poverty.

Why are so many of you so pessimistic? You seem to believe that people won't help others unless they are compelled to by the government.

That bit about people being willing to help each other out is my talking point, don't try to attach this bourgeois pseudo-"libertarian" nonsense to it.


Really? What are you, 4 years old? No one can use a phrase but you?!? Also, you should actually read posts before you comment, I have written about people voluntarily helping others many times on this thread...
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41911
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:29 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:For the love of god ignore the very obvious bait lol

indeed



governors gregg abott, kristi noem, and brian kemp are all promising to take action against biden's vaccine mandate
Sex is great. But have you tried data visualizations of partisan spatial segregation?
Hard truth: your homeowner parents and family members organizing to fight new apartments and keep their cities and suburbs exclusive is responsible for exorbitant housing costs, not "Zillow or Blackrock buying up all the homes"
Updating Trackers! How Congress votes, what Americans believe, and world leader approvals
Headline of the day: Switzerland votes to legalize gay marriage in national referendum (64.1%- 35.9%)

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The Reformed American Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5581
Founded: May 23, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:31 pm

Merrill wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Because many won't help or at least not enough. When we impose tax cuts and deregulation, most people don't benefit but the ultra-wealthy, and they buy more yachts than help those in need. We live in an era where a handful of people own more than half the world's population. How is that acceptable? It's not, and I'm hardly a communist.


Tax rates are not the reason for the accumulation of wealth. Monetary policy, specifically fiat money is more to blame. Absurd levels of regulation also contribute. When property rights are respected, families grow generational wealth. When it is easier to start a business, more people are independent. When the government doesn't MANDATE purchasing insurance, or vaccines, the barons of "healthcare" don't end up more rich and powerful.

Those of us who value liberty don't say that the world is perfect as it is. We agree that there are problems to be solved. We just disagree as to the solution. Taking the wealth from the rich won't help the poor beyond an immediate short term. In the long term, everyone is worse off because prosperity has been reduced.

And that's certainly not why people like the Koch brothers and wall street billionaires support your positions and astroturf the ideas you promote.
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Merrill
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Merrill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:32 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Merrill wrote:
Prison in the US is an abomination. There should be fewer laws, the only crimes should be direct harm to others. There should be no prisons, only punishments. Locking someone up doesn't do anything for the victim. Theft should be repaid. Assault should be flogging, plus monetary recompense. Murder should result in slavery to the victims family to replace (as much as possible) the life taken.

So you're liberating us from the eighth amendment?


At the time of the ratification, whipping was not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm an Originalist when it comes to the Constitution, although I'm more of an Anti-Federalist. When it comes to moral questions, it's "What would Jesus do?" When it comes to questions of government, it's "What would Jefferson do".

I'd rather be whipped and fined than spend years in a cage getting beaten and raped.
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Tarsonis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18151
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:33 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
So you support no work no food policies

I thought we were talking about greedy people who wanted to hoard the value of people's labor


No, that's the nonsense you're peddling the rest of us are discussing realistic ideas.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
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1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 67259
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:33 pm

Merrill wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I literally wouldn’t be alive today if it wasn’t because of welfare. That’s gotta count for something



Please clarify, thank you.

I think it’s pretty clear. I wouldn’t exist if I wasn’t for welfare. My great-grandparents where able to have kids and raise a family because of the welfare afforded to them by the New Deal. On top of that if it wasn’t for social security and other government benefits I’d be dead in a ditch because I’m unable to work
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:34 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Merrill wrote:
“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”
― Frederic Bastiat, The Law

Every Christian I know would be thrilled to increase their personal charitable donations to care for the children born because abortion is disallowed. Get rid of public welfare, reduce the tax burden on the productive, and people will take care of their neighbors voluntarily, like Jesus commanded.

Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. Decentralization and mutual aid is the hopeful end goal of communism, but eliminating public assistance in favor of hoping christians help people out is just dumb.

Decentralization is fucking stupid
Male, State Socialist, Cultural Nationalist, Welfare Chauvinist lives somewhere in AZ I'm GAY! Disabled US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 67259
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:36 pm

Merrill wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Ok so increase the funding for social programs then. If your house has a broken roof you fix the roof, not destroy the roof because it’s not working as a roof.


I agree it should be more. This really isn’t the gotcha you think it is.


Im pretty sure that Jesus was very clear that you shouldn’t be giving because you get things from it. Also you still aren’t forbidden from donating however much you want now.

It seems like you are making excuses for things


Seems that you don’t understand what pass though rate means. The issue isn’t that the welfare budget isn’t large enough, it’s that the money isn’t going to the people who supposedly need help. Every layer of government takes a cut. In 2016, the cost of the programs was over $25,000 per person under the poverty line. They most assuredly didn’t get $25,000 worth of benefits. No, don’t increase funding through the government. You don’t reward failure with a budget increase. Cancel all public welfare, and let people voluntarily contribute to charities that actually HELP people instead of being a jobs program for government employees.

So fix the leaks. If you have leaks in your roof you don’t destroy your house, you fix the roof. Same here. Fix the problem of government layers taking a cut.
Male, State Socialist, Cultural Nationalist, Welfare Chauvinist lives somewhere in AZ I'm GAY! Disabled US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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The Reformed American Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5581
Founded: May 23, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:37 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Merrill wrote:

Please clarify, thank you.

I think it’s pretty clear. I wouldn’t exist if I wasn’t for welfare. My great-grandparents where able to have kids and raise a family because of the welfare afforded to them by the New Deal. On top of that if it wasn’t for social security and other government benefits I’d be dead in a ditch because I’m unable to work

You should run for office tbh.
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The Temple of the Computer
Diplomat
 
Posts: 566
Founded: May 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Temple of the Computer » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Merrill wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:So you're liberating us from the eighth amendment?


At the time of the ratification, whipping was not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm an Originalist when it comes to the Constitution, although I'm more of an Anti-Federalist. When it comes to moral questions, it's "What would Jesus do?" When it comes to questions of government, it's "What would Jefferson do".

I'd rather be whipped and fined than spend years in a cage getting beaten and raped.

the 13th amendment abolished* Slavery and made it illegal. So your 'make the murderer a slave' idea will never happen.
#FreeNSGRojava

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Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50015
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:39 pm

The Temple of the Computer wrote:
Merrill wrote:
At the time of the ratification, whipping was not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm an Originalist when it comes to the Constitution, although I'm more of an Anti-Federalist. When it comes to moral questions, it's "What would Jesus do?" When it comes to questions of government, it's "What would Jefferson do".

I'd rather be whipped and fined than spend years in a cage getting beaten and raped.

the 13th amendment abolished* Slavery and made it illegal. So your 'make the murderer a slave' idea will never happen.


No it didn't. Slavery as a legal punishment is still legal.
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Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12332
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:39 pm

Merrill wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Indeed. We pay more when we eliminate social assistance programs. Incarcerating someone costs more than providing social services that can reduce their chances of being incarcerated


Prison in the US is an abomination. There should be fewer laws, the only crimes should be direct harm to others. There should be no prisons, only punishments. Locking someone up doesn't do anything for the victim. Theft should be repaid. Assault should be flogging, plus monetary recompense. Murder should result in slavery to the victims family to replace (as much as possible) the life taken.

I can't tell if this is more barbaric or less barbaric than the current criminal justice system, but it sounds more entertaining
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Merrill
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Merrill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:40 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Merrill wrote:
The US has spent more than 23 TRILLION dollars since 1965 on anti poverty programs. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?


The US has spent about the same on its military since 1965 and lost every war it started. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?


I'm guessing that you missed that I'm a libertarian? The US hasn't properly declared War since 8 December 1941. Every action since then has been unconstitutional. Korea, Vietnam, and Kuwait were NOT our business. After 9/11, Congress should have declared War on Al-Qaeda, we should have killed them all, and that's it! No nation building. No conflict in Iraq. No air strikes in Libya, Syria, etc. The "War on Terror" is as absurd as "The War on Drugs". If fundamentalist Islamic groups attack, declare War on that group, commit genocide only on that group, and go home. The issue is that we haven't REALLY waged war properly in a long time. We should leave everyone alone until attacked, then our response should be so horrifying that the next group thinks three times before attacking. Sherman's March should be a minimum guideline.
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 67259
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Merrill wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:Only because we allow it. An extensive social housing and welfare program would drastically reduce, if not eliminate, hunger.


The US has spent more than 23 TRILLION dollars since 1965 on anti poverty programs. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?

Dude we’ve spent over 5 trillion on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. That’s not counting the annual military funding either. If you want to cut spending, gut the DOD.
Male, State Socialist, Cultural Nationalist, Welfare Chauvinist lives somewhere in AZ I'm GAY! Disabled US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

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Necroghastia
Senator
 
Posts: 4857
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Merrill wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:So you're liberating us from the eighth amendment?


At the time of the ratification, whipping was not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm an Originalist when it comes to the Constitution, although I'm more of an Anti-Federalist. When it comes to moral questions, it's "What would Jesus do?" When it comes to questions of government, it's "What would Jefferson do".

I'd rather be whipped and fined than spend years in a cage getting beaten and raped.

pretty sure jefferson would not agree with originalism my dude
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The Temple of the Computer
Diplomat
 
Posts: 566
Founded: May 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Temple of the Computer » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Temple of the Computer wrote:the 13th amendment abolished* Slavery and made it illegal. So your 'make the murderer a slave' idea will never happen.


No it didn't. Slavery as a legal punishment is still legal.

Fair enough. But I don't think you're going to convince congress to make that 'murderers as slaves to the victim's family' thing a law.
#FreeNSGRojava

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The Reformed American Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5581
Founded: May 23, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Temple of the Computer wrote:the 13th amendment abolished* Slavery and made it illegal. So your 'make the murderer a slave' idea will never happen.


No it didn't. Slavery as a legal punishment is still legal.

Unfortunately.
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Merrill
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Merrill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Merrill wrote:
You don't want to work? You want everyone else to support you?

Did I say that? No? There's your answer.


Then what's your issue?
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 67259
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:42 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Merrill wrote:
The US has spent more than 23 TRILLION dollars since 1965 on anti poverty programs. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?


The US has spent about the same on its military since 1965 and lost every war it started. Please, tell us, how much more does it take?

The US military hasn’t lost every war it started since 1965. Unless Gulf War is somehow fake
Male, State Socialist, Cultural Nationalist, Welfare Chauvinist lives somewhere in AZ I'm GAY! Disabled US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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The Reformed American Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5581
Founded: May 23, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:43 pm

Merrill wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:Did I say that? No? There's your answer.


Then what's your issue?

He wants to destroy the current system.
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Here to stay whether you like me or not.
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Tarsonis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18151
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:43 pm

The Temple of the Computer wrote:
Merrill wrote:
At the time of the ratification, whipping was not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm an Originalist when it comes to the Constitution, although I'm more of an Anti-Federalist. When it comes to moral questions, it's "What would Jesus do?" When it comes to questions of government, it's "What would Jefferson do".

I'd rather be whipped and fined than spend years in a cage getting beaten and raped.

the 13th amendment abolished* Slavery and made it illegal. So your 'make the murderer a slave' idea will never happen.


Actually the 13th amendment left the caveat that it could still be used as punishment.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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