American Politics Thread VI: Can't We All Just Get Along?

[Immortan Khan]

We live in a government and society with no official or theology. Religious liberty includes the right of “hyper-secularists” to advocate for their causes.

These can always change.

[Necroghastia]

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

My, my, and here I was thinking you were talking of 2000 year old traditions. But here you are talking about the nuclear family and whatnot. Which is it?
Not to mention that this still doesn't answer my question. What good comes out most of this?

[North Washington Republic]

We live in a government and society with no official or theology. Religious liberty includes the right of “hyper-secularists” to advocate for their causes.

These can always change.

Good luck with that,

[Uiiop]

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

Ignoring the abortion issue that just seems like enforcing arbitrary norms and solutions looking at the wrong problems.

Being a single parent while not definably a cake can in fact be manageable and a valid choice nor does one need a figure of both sexes or just one of each.

Why how are you planning to deal with amicable divorces? Or people with massive issues that a shrink can't solve?

[Catarapania]

Only because increasing numbers of people are disowning their patrimony.

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the AMERICAN discussion thread. Most of us are ultimately of European descent, and therefore most heavily influenced by Christianity. Hence my statement.

You're not making much effort to explain it, from what I can tell.

Because it's not worth the effort. I'm not going to change your mind. You're always going to think that I'm a moral monster, and will never give the Christian perspective a fair hearing as a result.

So much for fighting tooth and nail, hm? You can't possibly care too terribly much about the whole thing if you can't come up with a justification you are willing to put forward to those you judge as enemies.[/quote]

If I had any evidence that the Left was open-minded enough to give me a fair hearing, I'd be happy to engage in argument and counter-argument. I have no such evidence.

That's the Leftist trick. Don't restrict the religion as a whole, go after individual moral teachings and pretend that they can be separated from the religion.

You are aware there are plenty of pro-choice and LGBTQ-friendly Christians and churches, yes?

I am aware of the depth of decay into which the church in America has fallen, yes.

[Punished UMN]

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that, even if there isn't persecution, it's completely understandable to have fears of your community's future in a society where you're increasingly a minority group and one that is pretty routinely derided in culture as uneducated, ignorant, and culturally backward. To say that it's complete paranoia to fear that your community might become totally irrelevant or even cease to exist is pretty strange when many internal projections already show a terminal decline in membership because many churches actually have reached a point of decline in generational membership that it is no longer viable for them to continue existing, because even socializing and reproduction within the community is no longer viable (there's a reason "flirt to convert" is a common joke in conservative Christian circles -- because the only option to meet a partner usually is to convince one to marry you and convert to your religion).

[North Washington Republic]

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

My, my, and here I was thinking you were talking of 2000 year old traditions. But here you are talking about the nuclear family and whatnot. Which is it?
Not to mention that this still doesn't answer my question. What good comes out most of this?

Conservative Christians typically believe that the nuclear family is the oldest example of what a typical family is.

The oldest example of typical families were polygamist.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the AMERICAN discussion thread. Most of us are ultimately of European descent, and therefore most heavily influenced by Christianity. Hence my statement.

Because it's not worth the effort. I'm not going to change your mind. You're always going to think that I'm a moral monster, and will never give the Christian perspective a fair hearing as a result.

So much for fighting tooth and nail, hm? You can't possibly care too terribly much about the whole thing if you can't come up with a justification you are willing to put forward to those you judge as enemies.

If I had any evidence that the Left was open-minded enough to give me a fair hearing, I'd be happy to engage in argument and counter-argument. I have no such evidence.

That's the Leftist trick. Don't restrict the religion as a whole, go after individual moral teachings and pretend that they can be separated from the religion.

You are aware there are plenty of pro-choice and LGBTQ-friendly Christians and churches, yes?

I am aware of the depth of decay into which the church in America has fallen, yes.[/quote]
If you're sticking to not changing any part of the bible, polygyny should be legal.

[Immortan Khan]

These can always change.

Good luck with that,

Thanks!

[North Washington Republic]

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that, even if there isn't persecution, it's completely understandable to have fears of your community's future in a society where you're increasingly a minority group and one that is pretty routinely derided in culture as uneducated, ignorant, and culturally backward. To say that it's complete paranoia to fear that your community might become totally irrelevant or even cease to exist is pretty strange when many internal projections already show a terminal decline in membership because many churches actually have reached a point of decline in generational membership that it is no longer viable for them to continue existing, because even socializing and reproduction within the community is no longer viable (there's a reason "flirt to convert" is a common joke in conservative Christian circles -- because the only option to meet a partner usually is to convince one to marry you and convert to your religion).

Again, that seems like a issue that conservative Christians must work on and not ask help from us hell bound apostate and heathens. This would be similar to asking a Conservative Christian clergy member or pastor to officiate a same-sex wedding, and I am also against that too. However it’s not the job of non-conservative Christians to make sure that is enough conservative Christians. That is the job of the church.

[Thermodolia]

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that, even if there isn't persecution, it's completely understandable to have fears of your community's future in a society where you're increasingly a minority group and one that is pretty routinely derided in culture as uneducated, ignorant, and culturally backward. To say that it's complete paranoia to fear that your community might become totally irrelevant or even cease to exist is pretty strange when many internal projections already show a terminal decline in membership because many churches actually have reached a point of decline in generational membership that it is no longer viable for them to continue existing, because even socializing and reproduction within the community is no longer viable (there's a reason "flirt to convert" is a common joke in conservative Christian circles -- because the only option to meet a partner usually is to convince one to marry you and convert to your religion).

The whole pedo problem and it’s cover up has definitely not helped at all. I read somewhere that it was the major cause of most people leaving religion

[Immortan Khan]

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that, even if there isn't persecution, it's completely understandable to have fears of your community's future in a society where you're increasingly a minority group and one that is pretty routinely derided in culture as uneducated, ignorant, and culturally backward. To say that it's complete paranoia to fear that your community might become totally irrelevant or even cease to exist is pretty strange when many internal projections already show a terminal decline in membership because many churches actually have reached a point of decline in generational membership that it is no longer viable for them to continue existing, because even socializing and reproduction within the community is no longer viable (there's a reason "flirt to convert" is a common joke in conservative Christian circles -- because the only option to meet a partner usually is to convince one to marry you and convert to your religion).

Furthering this point: no one asks "What stake do conservative Christians have in our current society?" and the answer is pretty much zero. Why should we expect communities to be more civil and not be dragged towards more radical views and politics when they don't really have anything to really lose?

[Punished UMN]

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that, even if there isn't persecution, it's completely understandable to have fears of your community's future in a society where you're increasingly a minority group and one that is pretty routinely derided in culture as uneducated, ignorant, and culturally backward. To say that it's complete paranoia to fear that your community might become totally irrelevant or even cease to exist is pretty strange when many internal projections already show a terminal decline in membership because many churches actually have reached a point of decline in generational membership that it is no longer viable for them to continue existing, because even socializing and reproduction within the community is no longer viable (there's a reason "flirt to convert" is a common joke in conservative Christian circles -- because the only option to meet a partner usually is to convince one to marry you and convert to your religion).

Again, that seems like a issue that conservative Christians must work on and not ask help from us hell bound apostate and heathens.

It's not about asking for help, it's asking for a lack of condescension and triumphalism about it. Whether you'd admit it or not, the broad cultural zeitgeist is derisive towards us at best and actively hostile at worst. We're treated as though we're some large oppressive group controlling society through the GOP from the shadows when in reality we are struggling to eek out an existence.

[Fauzjhia]

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the AMERICAN discussion thread. Most of us are ultimately of European descent, and therefore most heavily influenced by Christianity. Hence my statement.

how about you show us how the left threaten your freedom of religion. because I asked for evidence, and you fail to produce any evidence that the left is threatening your freedom of religion.
the only I see, is that you dislike the fact that people are starting to accept vision/ policies that are in contradiction with your vision, but how does that threaten your freedom of religion.
If you say the left threaten your religious liberty, then provide evidence please.

[Thermodolia]

Again, that seems like a issue that conservative Christians must work on and not ask help from us hell bound apostate and heathens.

It's not about asking for help, it's asking for a lack of condescension and triumphalism about it. Whether you'd admit it or not, the broad cultural zeitgeist is derisive towards us at best and actively hostile at worst. We're treated as though we're some large oppressive group controlling society through the GOP from the shadows when in reality we are struggling to eek out an existence.

It doesn’t help your case when you have religiously conservative politicians who want to reverse every socially liberal thing in the past 50 years. It also doesn’t help that many of those politicians where/are in positions of power

[Catarapania]

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

My, my, and here I was thinking you were talking of 2000 year old traditions. But here you are talking about the nuclear family and whatnot. Which is it?

I'd favor the high degree of interconnection of an extended family, but we have to start improving things somewhere. Going back to the nuclear family is a good first step.

Not to mention that this still doesn't answer my question. What good comes out most of this?

The way I see it, the things I listed are themselves proper ends, rather than means to separate ends. With the exception of the nuclear family, which is the first step towards returning to the natural order of society.

[Thermodolia]

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the AMERICAN discussion thread. Most of us are ultimately of European descent, and therefore most heavily influenced by Christianity. Hence my statement.

Last time I checked the US isn’t a theocracy.

[Necroghastia]

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the AMERICAN discussion thread. Most of us are ultimately of European descent, and therefore most heavily influenced by Christianity. Hence my statement.

Not everyone, though. Notably not, since you emphasized it, many AMERICANS.

So much for fighting tooth and nail, hm? You can't possibly care too terribly much about the whole thing if you can't come up with a justification you are willing to put forward to those you judge as enemies.

If I had any evidence that the Left was open-minded enough to give me a fair hearing, I'd be happy to engage in argument and counter-argument. I have no such evidence.

Hmph. Not my fault you're unwilling to fight as tooth and nail as you claimed.

You are aware there are plenty of pro-choice and LGBTQ-friendly Christians and churches, yes?

I am aware of the depth of decay into which the church in America has fallen, yes.

So christians that interpret the religion differently than yourself are "decayed?" Is every denomination but one decayed, then?

[Immortan Khan]

Also there is a pseudo-official form of state atheism that is both promoted and even enforced. Even politicians deriving their political stances and ethics from religion is derided and seen as something that should disqualify them from holding office and/or power. This gets further translated into the legal process. There is no "Live and let live" system because there is a universal legal system which means that eventually once side is going to have to dominate when it comes to cultural norms, beliefs, laws etc. The only thing that could come close to a live and let live system is if there was a millet type system for (ir)religious communities. Eg abortion could be legally punished and would be illegal for people belonging to religious communities that hold that position.

[North Washington Republic]

Again, that seems like a issue that conservative Christians must work on and not ask help from us hell bound apostate and heathens.

It's not about asking for help, it's asking for a lack of condescension and triumphalism about it. Whether you'd admit it or not, the broad cultural zeitgeist is derisive towards us at best and actively hostile at worst. We're treated as though we're some large oppressive group controlling society through the GOP from the shadows when in reality we are struggling to eek out an existence.

I think it’s conservative Christians that have feelings of condescension and triumphalism compared to non-conservative Christians. People have have hostility towards conservative Christians is because they do have a feeling of superiority compared to the general populace. Are they’re hardcore anti-theists that feel condescension and triumphalism over the shrinking numbers of conservative Christians, I admit that. But the general populace doesn’t care.

The persecution complex among conservative Christians is nothing new. They have been saying that they are really the oppressed ones for decades. The the “secular elite” is against them and they are the arbiters of truth.

[HISPIDA]

We live in a government and society with no official or theology.

[Senkaku]

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

Why is it that the political vision of transcendent religious faiths always boils down to reactionary brutality? Why bother with all the ritual for such a pathetic creed? Breeders killing each other for burning dinner is going to happen whether or not you make them sit through a bunch of Cold War-era theatrics every Sunday, you might as well save yourself the trouble.

[Necroghastia]

My, my, and here I was thinking you were talking of 2000 year old traditions. But here you are talking about the nuclear family and whatnot. Which is it?

I'd favor the high degree of interconnection of an extended family, but we have to start improving things somewhere. Going back to the nuclear family is a good first step.

Not to mention that this still doesn't answer my question. What good comes out most of this?

The way I see it, the things I listed are themselves proper ends, rather than means to separate ends. With the exception of the nuclear family, which is the first step towards returning to the natural order of society.

The "natural order of society?" Please, do elaborate.

[Punished UMN]

It's not about asking for help, it's asking for a lack of condescension and triumphalism about it. Whether you'd admit it or not, the broad cultural zeitgeist is derisive towards us at best and actively hostile at worst. We're treated as though we're some large oppressive group controlling society through the GOP from the shadows when in reality we are struggling to eek out an existence.

It doesn’t help your case when you have religiously conservative politicians who want to reverse every socially liberal thing in the past 50 years. It also doesn’t help that many of those politicians where/are in positions of power

The implication though is that there's some monolith there. Like I'm Orthodox, we have basically nothing in-common with Evangelicals socially or politically. The most important religious figure in my church is a 60+ year old man from Syria, we're not represented by those people. There are as many hate crimes against Orthodox Christians who are mistaken for Muslims by right wingers as there are against Muslims. We're still equally affected by those cultural attitudes simply because our church is typically seen as patriarchal and sex-negative (and oftentimes with a subtext, even from liberal commentators, of actual racial animus against our leadership).

[Immortan Khan]

The the “secular elite” is against them

Yeah and that's true. No other religion gets pilloried or is seen as fair game to the same extent that Christianity is.