American Politics Thread VI: Can't We All Just Get Along?

[The Temple of the Computer]

Wikipedia tells me that he is an Unspecified Protestant, but ok I guess that works too.

Every belief he has is unspecified.

Other then owning the libs, that for a fact I know is true.

[Fauzjhia]

Right-wing Christians are panicking because they’re such a shrinking part of the population.

If we were shrinking, but our beliefs were still seen as valid, it wouldn't be a problem.

I really fail to see how the legalization of abortion is an attack against your belief. No one is going to force you to get an abortion and no one is going to come for your gun.

[Necroghastia]

I’m not attempting anything. Just because the majority of people disagree with your theology doesn’t mean there isn’t religious freedom. You’re upset because not everyone agrees with you. Religious liberty also means that people have a right not to be religious.

You completely ignored my central point. Even if you yourself are not part of the problem, there's a very active section of the populace that is trying to make a commitment to traditional sexual morality

Not everyone's tradition, mind.

out to be "homophobic," and that smears pro-lifers as "misogynists."

If the shoe fits.

No one outside of my ingroup will even attempt to understand why my position is the way it is,

You're not making much effort to explain it, from what I can tell.

and if I publically express my views, there go my employment opportunities. I put it to you that, if someone can't publically state the moral teachings of their religion without being blacklisted, then religious liberty is decidedly lacking.

Religious discrimination is a thing you can sue for, if that's truly the thing being persecuted here.
I do find myself skeptical that that's the case, however.

[Punished UMN]

The reason that's not comforting for those of us who are religious is that it's not persecution we're afraid of, it's ceasing to exist as viable communities. A lot of religious communities already have pretty crippling demographic decline just from people leaving, and the worry for a lot of us is that as the more atheist mindset becomes the cultural default that practicing our religions will just stop being physically and culturally viable. You don't have to be persecuted to cease to exist.

That sounds like work that Conservative Christians need to work on. People are free to leave any religious communities anytime they wish in the United States. It’s not the job of the wider society to push people into religion, that is the job of believers.

Again, we're not worried about people being free or unfree to leave communities, but the wider culture is actually kind of actively hostile to our social mores and it's extremely difficult to have retention in your community under those circumstances, and very few people are converting in because it's actually pretty unpopular to be a traditionalist Christian. This also actually makes it very difficult because there is a chronic lack of options for even basic social functions like friendship, marriage, etc.

[Thermodolia]

Donald Trump was a Presbyterian?

So he said, iirc.

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

[Necroghastia]

You can sue against discrimination.

Yeah, you think I can afford lawyers? You've got another thing coming.

And even if I could, the judge would just say that I got what was coming to me. That's the way the tide is turning. There's no room for us in society any more. Are you surprised that we fight tooth and nail to the last breath, applying every means at our disposal?

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

[North Washington Republic]

So he said, iirc.

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

Agreed. I think he was not only atheist, but hostile to religion. Had opinions about religion similar to Ayn Rand, but he kept his opinions to himself because there are enough marks to buy into his bullshit.

[The Temple of the Computer]

So he said, iirc.

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

I am sure he believes in some kind of god, but it's not a very nice one, probably a lot like him actually.

[Senkaku]

I put it to you that, if someone can't publically state the moral teachings of their religion without being blacklisted, then religious liberty is decidedly lacking.

Or it could be that the moral teachings of that religion are simply so strange as to alienate most of society, but I’m sure you’ve already drawn a more self-serving conclusion

[Catarapania]

You completely ignored my central point. Even if you yourself are not part of the problem, there's a very active section of the populace that is trying to make a commitment to traditional sexual morality

Not everyone's tradition, mind.

Only because increasing numbers of people are disowning their patrimony.

out to be "homophobic," and that smears pro-lifers as "misogynists."

If the shoe fits.

It doesn't, but that won't stop you from saying that it does.

No one outside of my ingroup will even attempt to understand why my position is the way it is,

You're not making much effort to explain it, from what I can tell.

Because it's not worth the effort. I'm not going to change your mind. You're always going to think that I'm a moral monster, and will never give the Christian perspective a fair hearing as a result.

and if I publically express my views, there go my employment opportunities. I put it to you that, if someone can't publically state the moral teachings of their religion without being blacklisted, then religious liberty is decidedly lacking.

Religious discrimination is a thing you can sue for, if that's truly the thing being persecuted here.
I do find myself skeptical that that's the case, however.

That's the Leftist trick. Don't restrict the religion as a whole, go after individual moral teachings and pretend that they can be separated from the religion.

[Thermodolia]

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

Agreed. I think he was not only atheist, but hostile to religion. Had similar opinions like Ayn Rand, but he kept his opinions to himself because there are enough marks to buy into his bullshit.

He wasn’t hostile to religion but he definitely didn’t think highly of people who where devout followers of it

[Thermodolia]

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

I am sure he believes in some kind of god, but it's not a very nice one, probably a lot like him actually.

Ya, he’s the god. Or at least he thinks he’s one

[Uiiop]

So he said, iirc.

I’m pretty sure Trump was the first atheist president. Though not officially

Religious hypocrisy is not so specials it means kicking them out of having faith at least.

Though I'm still giggling at one of his towers possibly being 666ft tall or something like that.

[Immortan Khan]

The reason that's not comforting for those of us who are religious is that it's not persecution we're afraid of, it's ceasing to exist as viable communities. A lot of religious communities already have pretty crippling demographic decline just from people leaving, and the worry for a lot of us is that as the more atheist mindset becomes the cultural default that practicing our religions will just stop being physically and culturally viable. You don't have to be persecuted to cease to exist.

That sounds like work that Conservative Christians need to work on. People are free to leave any religious communities anytime they wish in the United States. It’s not the job of the wider society to push people into religion, that is the job of believers.

But it can be encouraged by the state. That's what Saint Constantine did. While pagans were still allowed to go about their ways and many traditional pagan mores were allowed to be expressed, if not practiced, he created an environment that made becoming Christian advantageous to oneself socially and culturally. I mean, this is also what hyper-secularists are doing at the social level and leveraging elite institutions for their own side.

[North Washington Republic]

Agreed. I think he was not only atheist, but hostile to religion. Had similar opinions like Ayn Rand, but he kept his opinions to himself because there are enough marks to buy into his bullshit.

He wasn’t hostile to religion but he definitely didn’t think highly of people who where devout followers of it

Yes. A lot of his followers were of the charismatic or Pentecostal orientation. So, someone like him would mock the shit out of them.

[Catarapania]

Yeah, you think I can afford lawyers? You've got another thing coming.

And even if I could, the judge would just say that I got what was coming to me. That's the way the tide is turning. There's no room for us in society any more. Are you surprised that we fight tooth and nail to the last breath, applying every means at our disposal?

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

[Sincluda]

Biden doesn't get his religion involved in his politics. He doesn't want to force his views on others, which is why he's personally pro-life but want pro-choice policies. That's an admirable quality, and my favorite thing about him, even if I'm not raving in support of him.

That's one way you could see it. Another way you can see it is as a man who can easily bend his own apparent principles when it benefits him.

Regardless, there's no such thing as "personally" pro life people. You either are or you're not.

Sure, that's another view, and a fair one.

I mean he is opposed to abortion but not in his political policies.

[The Temple of the Computer]

And what are you actually fighting for? Before you say "traditional values," I am also asking what do they stand for?

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

So if a wife/husband gets domestically abused by their partner, they are not allowed to get a divorce? Or when they simply don't love one a other anymore?

[North Washington Republic]

That sounds like work that Conservative Christians need to work on. People are free to leave any religious communities anytime they wish in the United States. It’s not the job of the wider society to push people into religion, that is the job of believers.

But it can be encouraged by the state. That's what Saint Constantine did. While pagans were still allowed to go about their ways and many traditional pagan mores were allowed to be expressed, if not practiced, he created an environment that made becoming Christian advantageous to oneself socially and culturally. I mean, this is also what hyper-secularists are doing at the social level and leveraging elite institutions for their own side.

I go by the United States Constitution. I don’t really give two shits what Saint Constantine did. We live in a government and society with no official or theology. Religious liberty includes the right of “hyper-secularists” to advocate for their causes.

[Catarapania]

You know damn well what, but if necessary, I'll spell it out for you. The rights of the unborn. The nuclear family as the bedrock social unit. Every child having one parent of each biological sex. No single mothers trapped in poverty by irresponsible fathers. The de-commodification of sex. The permanence of marriage. Among other things.

So if a wife/husband gets domestically abused by their partner, they are not allowed to get a divorce? Or when they simply don't love one a other anymore?

I am willing to make exceptions in the case of abuse, abandonment, and adultery - but only in those cases.

[Necroghastia]

Not everyone's tradition, mind.

Only because increasing numbers of people are disowning their patrimony.

Not every culture is christian, let alone your particular brand of tradition.

If the shoe fits.

You're not making much effort to explain it, from what I can tell.

Because it's not worth the effort. I'm not going to change your mind. You're always going to think that I'm a moral monster, and will never give the Christian perspective a fair hearing as a result.

So much for fighting tooth and nail, hm? You can't possibly care too terribly much about the whole thing if you can't come up with a justification you are willing to put forward to those you judge as enemies.

Religious discrimination is a thing you can sue for, if that's truly the thing being persecuted here.
I do find myself skeptical that that's the case, however.

That's the Leftist trick. Don't restrict the religion as a whole, go after individual moral teachings and pretend that they can be separated from the religion.

You are aware there are plenty of pro-choice and LGBTQ-friendly Christians and churches, yes?

[Punished UMN]

But it can be encouraged by the state. That's what Saint Constantine did. While pagans were still allowed to go about their ways and many traditional pagan mores were allowed to be expressed, if not practiced, he created an environment that made becoming Christian advantageous to oneself socially and culturally. I mean, this is also what hyper-secularists are doing at the social level and leveraging elite institutions for their own side.

I go by the United States Constitution. I don’t really give two shits what Saint Constantine did. We live in a government and society with no official or theology. Religious liberty includes the right of “hyper-secularists” to advocate for their causes.

You edited this so that it wouldn't say "we live in a society" didn't you?

[The Temple of the Computer]

I go by the United States Constitution. I don’t really give two shits what Saint Constantine did. We live in a government and society with no official or theology. Religious liberty includes the right of “hyper-secularists” to advocate for their causes.

You edited this so that it wouldn't say "we live in a society" didn't you?

It's true, we do truly live in a capitalist society.

[Thermodolia]

Not everyone's tradition, mind.

Only because increasing numbers of people are disowning their patrimony.

Not our problem mate. Maybe if religious institutions where idk less corrupt and at times down right evil and didn’t have messed up priorities, like going after two consenting adults but kiddie fuckers are left alone, maybe if they wherent like that then they wouldn’t be loosing so many people.

But either way that’s not the governments nor societies problem. It’s the religions problems

[Thermodolia]

You edited this so that it wouldn't say "we live in a society" didn't you?

It's true, we do truly live in a capitalist society.

Fucking sucks ass