NationStates

Today in Shushi, a city formally in the Republic of Artsakh before the Azeri invasion and expulsion of it's population last year, President's of Azerbaijan and Tukrey Aliyev and Erdogan meet to finalise a military alliance and finalise plans for the destruction of Armenia. The press conference in question contained mostly what you'd expect, lies about the war, lies about Artsakh administration of the city destroyed in the war, lies about destruction of Armenian cultural artefacts as a rebuilding effort, and lies that Armenia is the aggressor.

These lies are normal and sadly expected. The much more damning point is a call for construction through a 'Zangezur corridor'. For those who don't know which I can assume will be most of you Zangezur refers to the Syunik Province in Armenian, that region between the Karabakh and Nakhchivan. And before anyone thinks this is just peaceful calls for connection with an Azeri exclave, Azerbaijan has already invaded Armenia. Azerbaijan invaded into Lake Sev in Syunik only in May, continued clashes along the whole border have continued since then. The world continues to abandon the Armenia to their destruction while powerful dictatorships surrounding them circle above, waiting for their death.

Thanks to a general translation of events from the press conference by Cavid Ağa https://twitter.com/cavidaga/status/1404773233237409796
General rule for those new to the region don't trust Turkish sources except as general confirmation https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/dip ... ted-shusha

The question I want to bring up is fairly plain if bitter, what if anything can be done to support Armenia and where does this all end? Is there no hope and Armenia is to be cast to the winds of time or can the West or Russia work to help the small country in the Lesser Caucasus? Is Armenia doomed?

Ain't it funny how America justifies Israeli oppression with "remember the holocaust, they gotta defend themselves," but when Armenia is genuinely attacked by an alliance of racial supremacists, the US is giving said bigots bombs and guns. Don't the Armenians have a right to defend themselves? People are dying and the world is like "k." And I got news for anyone who lives in the middle east, this turkish aggression isn't gonna stop with Armenia. I know Turkey has been playing this little game of "We're all Islamic brothers" but the fact is you're not. Turkey has a history of dividing and conquering people and just like the Kurds before them, I guarantee you when the Turks and their allies have no further need for their Arab allies, they will put a bullet in their backs and throw them on the burn pile. Never work with people who believe their ethnicity is superior to all others, cause if they think that, they probably think they're superior to you.

We will remember them through this thread.

Heloin wrote:Today in Shushi, a city formally in the Republic of Artsakh before the Azeri invasion and expulsion of it's population last year, President's of Azerbaijan and Tukrey Aliyev and Erdogan meet to finalise a military alliance and finalise plans for the destruction of Armenia. The press conference in question contained mostly what you'd expect, lies about the war, lies about Artsakh administration of the city destroyed in the war, lies about destruction of Armenian cultural artefacts as a rebuilding effort, and lies that Armenia is the aggressor.

These lies are normal and sadly expected. The much more damning point is a call for construction through a 'Zangezur corridor'. For those who don't know which I can assume will be most of you Zangezur refers to the Syunik Province in Armenian, that region between the Karabakh and Nakhchivan. And before anyone thinks this is just peaceful calls for connection with an Azeri exclave, Azerbaijan has already invaded Armenia. Azerbaijan invaded into Lake Sev in Syunik only in May, continued clashes along the whole border have continued since then. The world continues to abandon the Armenia to their destruction while powerful dictatorships surrounding them circle above, waiting for their death.

Thanks to a general translation of events from the press conference by Cavid Ağa https://twitter.com/cavidaga/status/1404773233237409796
General rule for those new to the region don't trust Turkish sources except as general confirmation https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/dip ... ted-shusha

Your definition of the Azerbaijani army as an invader shows that your knowledge of the region is weak. The Armenian occupation mentality has to comply with the decision of the United Nations. Erdogan's aim is not to destroy Armenia, he only thinks about his own interests, not the Armenian or Turkish people. In addition, your information regarding the agreement is incorrect, a safe corridor will be created and the Azerbaijani people will be able to freely cross into Nakhchivan territory. We know that before the agreement, cars with Azerbaijan license plates were taken under fire by Armenian soldiers. Yes, do not trust the morning newspaper. because it is a newspaper that propagates political Islam. I see it as proof of your racist mentality because you keep all Turkish media inside when you say don't trust Turkish sources. According to you, the most reliable newspaper is the newspaper published by the racist dashnak party. You are no different from political Islam and its supporter newspapers. The supporters of the Dashnak party and the political Islamist sect are the same, so they cannot think of the rights of the Armenian people, the only thing they think is the policy of enmity.


List of newspapers that can be trusted in Turkish media.I am also sure that there are fearless journalists in the Armenian media that you can trust.
https://www.sozcu.com.tr/
https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/
https://www.korkusuz.com.tr/

General reminder to anyone new that Hakinda is a Turkish Ultranationalist who support any and all aggression against Armenians for the crime of being Armenian.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Ain't it funny how America justifies Israeli oppression with "remember the holocaust, they gotta defend themselves," but when Armenia is genuinely attacked by an alliance of racial supremacists, the US is giving said bigots bombs and guns. Don't the Armenians have a right to defend themselves? People are dying and the world is like "k."

US government policy almost certainly does not reflect US public opinion.

During Ireland's struggle for independence, the US did nothing to support the republicans because it was increasingly looking to the UK as an ally. Nevertheless, the Irish diaspora in the US - which is the largest in the world - were probably the single largest material supporter of the Irish republican cause outside Ireland. They gave them money and weapons, and public opinion in the US was almost certainly with the Irish, due in part to the parallels with the US Revolution and antipathy towards British colonialism.

The US is home to what is probably the largest Armenian overseas diaspora in the world. Public opinion in the US almost certainly lies with Armenia rather than Turkey or Azerbaijan - American views of Erdogan's Turkey have gone increasingly downhill in the past decade, plus the impact of the massive Armenian population in the states also makes them more favorably viewed.

That being said, Armenia is heavily backed by Russia, which maintains a military presence in the country and is its largest supplier of arms. The US government will not side with Russia against Turkey, a traditional NATO ally.

I'm guessing that Turkey and Azerbaijan are closely studying Israel's cultural genocide playbook and will try to do the same things to the Armenians as Israel does to Palestinians: Cut off continguous borders, have settlers move in, and control commerce until what's left is little more than a prison.

I almost read the title wrong.

Guys, "who now remembers the Armenians?" was originally used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust - if the Young Truks could get away with a genocide, so could the far-right Germans - was their line of thought.

Is OP implying that Turkey and Azerbaijan are conspiring to commit another genocide?

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Ain't it funny how America justifies Israeli oppression with "remember the holocaust, they gotta defend themselves," but when Armenia is genuinely attacked by an alliance of racial supremacists, the US is giving said bigots bombs and guns. Don't the Armenians have a right to defend themselves? People are dying and the world is like "k." And I got news for anyone who lives in the middle east, this turkish aggression isn't gonna stop with Armenia. I know Turkey has been playing this little game of "We're all Islamic brothers" but the fact is you're not. Turkey has a history of dividing and conquering people and just like the Kurds before them, I guarantee you when the Turks and their allies have no further need for their Arab allies, they will put a bullet in their backs and throw them on the burn pile. Never work with people who believe their ethnicity is superior to all others, cause if they think that, they probably think they're superior to you.

Unfortunately, our government is absolutely corrupt, and this is what we get. We're supposed to be a Democracy, but we cannot change this electorally.

Page wrote:I'm guessing that Turkey and Azerbaijan are closely studying Israel's cultural genocide playbook and will try to do the same things to the Armenians as Israel does to Palestinians: Cut off continguous borders, have settlers move in, and control commerce until what's left is little more than a prison.

They learned the ropes in Syria. Now they're replicating it in Armenia while the US Government says "yeah there's no way this is gonna cause a major war in the future."

Composite Atmospheres wrote:Guys, "who now remembers the Armenians?" was originally used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust - if the Young Truks could get away with a genocide, so could the far-right Germans - was their line of thought.

Is OP implying that Turkey and Azerbaijan are conspiring to commit another genocide?

They're doing more than implying. They're shouting it from the roof, hoping people hear.

Composite Atmospheres wrote:Guys, "who now remembers the Armenians?" was originally used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust - if the Young Truks could get away with a genocide, so could the far-right Germans - was their line of thought.

Is OP implying that Turkey and Azerbaijan are conspiring to commit another genocide?

Well yeah, did you read the rest of my OP?

A m e n r i a wrote:I almost read the title wrong.

I'll remember you.

I guess we will have to remember them.

It's fucked up what Turkey and Azerbaijan are doing to Armenia, and its even worse that the world is silent on the matter. But the question then pivots towards; what can be done? Who or what could intervene to save them?

A m e n r i a wrote:I almost read the title wrong.

anyway my two cents: Turkey is a horrible ally and our continued support of them is a mistake. This is just further proof.

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:

A m e n r i a wrote:I almost read the title wrong.

anyway my two cents: Turkey is a horrible ally and our continued support of them is a mistake. This is just further proof.

It's weird how we support turkey while turkey employs former ISIS fighters to wage war both in Libya and against Armenians. Aren't we supposed to be against ISIS?

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

Composite Atmospheres wrote:Guys, "who now remembers the Armenians?" was originally used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust - if the Young Truks could get away with a genocide, so could the far-right Germans - was their line of thought.

Is OP implying that Turkey and Azerbaijan are conspiring to commit another genocide?

They're doing more than implying. They're shouting it from the roof, hoping people hear.

I'm too subtle in my bright Armenian jacket and sunglasses playing a guitar solo of Dashnak Dro on top of Mount Ararat.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Ain't it funny how America justifies Israeli oppression with "remember the holocaust, they gotta defend themselves," but when Armenia is genuinely attacked by an alliance of racial supremacists, the US is giving said bigots bombs and guns. Don't the Armenians have a right to defend themselves? People are dying and the world is like "k." And I got news for anyone who lives in the middle east, this turkish aggression isn't gonna stop with Armenia. I know Turkey has been playing this little game of "We're all Islamic brothers" but the fact is you're not. Turkey has a history of dividing and conquering people and just like the Kurds before them, I guarantee you when the Turks and their allies have no further need for their Arab allies, they will put a bullet in their backs and throw them on the burn pile. Never work with people who believe their ethnicity is superior to all others, cause if they think that, they probably think they're superior to you.

Turkey does not consist of the money that political Islamist nationalists earn for arms dealers.

Heloin wrote:General reminder to anyone new that Hakinda is a Turkish Ultranationalist who support any and all aggression against Armenians for the crime of being Armenian.

At the Dashnak party, you and your friends can discuss the hideous slanders against me. Today, the Dashnak party in Armenia is the same as the justice and development party and the nationalist movement party. The people of the region are fed up with your racist religious policies.

I can’t say much as my knowledge of this conflict is very superficial but I’m saddened by the Armenian plight.

Composite Atmospheres wrote:Guys, "who now remembers the Armenians?" was originally used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust - if the Young Truks could get away with a genocide, so could the far-right Germans - was their line of thought.

Is OP implying that Turkey and Azerbaijan are conspiring to commit another genocide?

I wouldn’t exactly be surprised.

Heloin wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
They're doing more than implying. They're shouting it from the roof, hoping people hear.

I'm too subtle in my bright Armenian jacket and sunglasses playing a guitar solo of Dashnak Dro on top of Mount Ararat.

Im standing here in bright red clothes with a mustache shouting "Yeghbayrner, mi ban arek" while Chop Suey plays from two huge speakers behind me.

Chan Island wrote:I guess we will have to remember them.

It's fucked up what Turkey and Azerbaijan are doing to Armenia, and its even worse that the world is silent on the matter. But the question then pivots towards; what can be done? Who or what could intervene to save them?

The waiting game right now is for Azerbaijan or Turkey to fuck up. They are on the coattails of a military victory while Armenia has internal issues that must be dealt with. A competent Armenian leader and a Azeri misstep could force Russia into the conflict. That Is Azerbaijan's biggest fear, if Russia gets involved they will lose and Turkey is likely unwilling to wage such a war with Russia knowing that in such a conflict NATO would have no obligation to come to their aid.

Turkey and Azerbaijan are acting like they've won and at the moment they have, if they stopped here there would be nothing Armenia could ever do. Azerbaijan wants to see how much further it can push. Only time will tell if that is the step too far.

Heloin wrote:Today in Shushi, a city formally in the Republic of Artsakh before the Azeri invasion and expulsion of it's population last year, President's of Azerbaijan and Tukrey Aliyev and Erdogan meet to finalise a military alliance and finalise plans for the destruction of Armenia. The press conference in question contained mostly what you'd expect, lies about the war, lies about Artsakh administration of the city destroyed in the war, lies about destruction of Armenian cultural artefacts as a rebuilding effort, and lies that Armenia is the aggressor.

These lies are normal and sadly expected. The much more damning point is a call for construction through a 'Zangezur corridor'. For those who don't know which I can assume will be most of you Zangezur refers to the Syunik Province in Armenian, that region between the Karabakh and Nakhchivan. And before anyone thinks this is just peaceful calls for connection with an Azeri exclave, Azerbaijan has already invaded Armenia. Azerbaijan invaded into Lake Sev in Syunik only in May, continued clashes along the whole border have continued since then. The world continues to abandon the Armenia to their destruction while powerful dictatorships surrounding them circle above, waiting for their death.

Thanks to a general translation of events from the press conference by Cavid Ağa https://twitter.com/cavidaga/status/1404773233237409796
General rule for those new to the region don't trust Turkish sources except as general confirmation https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/dip ... ted-shusha

Just a couple of quick points here for the sake of accuracy.

1) 'Invaded into Lake Sev' is perhaps a poor choice of phrasing since Lake Sev (easily confused with the much larger Lake Sevan) straddles the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan. "Took control of the heights overlooking Lake Sev on the Armenian side of the border" would perhaps work better.

2) Slightly oddly, you perhaps downplay the significance of Azeri rhetoric as regards the 'Zangezur Corridor'. The language from Baku over the proposed corridor has frequently been heated in recent months. Aliyev told Azeri state media in April 2021 that:

The creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We are implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not. If she wants, we will solve this issue easier, if she does not want, we will solve it by force.

Just as before and during the war, I said that they must free themselves from our lands, or we will expel them by force. And so it happened. The same will be the fate of the Zangezur corridor.

Our main rival is time, because the construction of a railway and a highway takes time. Therefore, all forces have been mobilized to implement this project. Thus, the Azerbaijani people will return to Zangezur, which was taken away from us 101 years ago.

And in an international conference he went quite a bit further (see about halfway through that link):

So, when I say that Zangazur is an ancient Azerbaijani land, this is truth. Zangazur was given to Armenia in 1920-101 years ago. Before that it belonged to us. When I say that Goyche, which they call Sevan now, is the lake where Azerbaijanis lived, it is also the truth. It’s enough to look at the map of beginning of the 20th century and you will not find Sevan there, you will see Goyche. The same with Yerevan. They destroyed the historical part of Yerevan. It is an obvious fact. Azerbaijanis lived there, including my ancestors. So, this is the fact, but it does not mean that we have territorial claims. Yes, I can tell you even more, maybe you know but don’t want to mention, maybe you don’t know. I even said that we will return there. Yes, I said that. But I didn’t say we will return there on tanks. I said that we will return. It means that why not. If we are returning to Zangazur corridor, if we are using the road, why should not we return to Yerevan? I think that the time will come and we will do it. So, once again, thank you for this question. It allowed me to make clarification and also to present my position we will remember our history, but we don’t have any territorial claims against any country including Armenia.

It's an odd paragraph. 'We don't have any territorial claims' doesn't seem to be wholly compatible with stating that Lake Sevan 'is the lake where Azerbaijanis lived', claiming that Yerevan is historically an Azeri city, that before 1920 'Zangazur' 'belonged to us', and stating that 'we will return' to both 'Zangazur' and Yerevan. Even acknowledging that he said 'I didn't say we would return there on tanks', the general tone is a bit chest-thumping.

Armenia, inevitably, sees the issue differently. They agree that the peace agreement brokered by Russia calls for the following (see the section headed 'What does the tripartite agreement say?'):

All economic and transport links in the region are being unblocked. The Republic of Armenia guarantees the safety of transport links between the western regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic in order to organize the unimpeded movement of citizens, vehicles and goods in both directions. Control over transport communication is carried out by the bodies of the Border Service of the FSB of Russia.

By agreement of the Parties, the construction of new transport communications linking the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic with the western regions of Azerbaijan will be ensured.

As far as the Armenians are concerned, this means unblocking previously existing communication routes, primarily the old rail line along the Aras River on Armenia's far southern border with Iran. The highly mountainous territory makes it difficult to do anything more ambitious, though it's not clear if the protocol requires restoring the old highway link running south from Yerevan to Nakhichevan.

So Aliyev's rhetoric does seem rather unnecessarily heated given Armenia isn't disputing the parts of the protocol that require unblocking past transport links.


And one quick note that both sides are seeing fit to gloss over... Turkey has a land border with Nakhchivan, via a tongue of land extending east of Mount Ararat, through which the Turks have built a modern highway. Nakhchivan also has a border crossing with Iran at Julfa. The exclave isn't remotely cut off (or rather, it's remote, but by no means cut off).

The Archregimancy wrote:
1) 'Invaded into Lake Sev' is perhaps a poor choice of phrasing since Lake Sev (easily confused with the much larger Lake Sevan) straddles the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan. "Took control of the heights overlooking Lake Sev on the Armenian side of the border" would perhaps work better.

To further add to what Arch is saying, in general, the exact de jure border between Armenia and Azerbaijan has been poorly defined ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, not least due to inconsistent maps from that era.

The Archregimancy wrote:

Heloin wrote:Today in Shushi, a city formally in the Republic of Artsakh before the Azeri invasion and expulsion of it's population last year, President's of Azerbaijan and Tukrey Aliyev and Erdogan meet to finalise a military alliance and finalise plans for the destruction of Armenia. The press conference in question contained mostly what you'd expect, lies about the war, lies about Artsakh administration of the city destroyed in the war, lies about destruction of Armenian cultural artefacts as a rebuilding effort, and lies that Armenia is the aggressor.

These lies are normal and sadly expected. The much more damning point is a call for construction through a 'Zangezur corridor'. For those who don't know which I can assume will be most of you Zangezur refers to the Syunik Province in Armenian, that region between the Karabakh and Nakhchivan. And before anyone thinks this is just peaceful calls for connection with an Azeri exclave, Azerbaijan has already invaded Armenia. Azerbaijan invaded into Lake Sev in Syunik only in May, continued clashes along the whole border have continued since then. The world continues to abandon the Armenia to their destruction while powerful dictatorships surrounding them circle above, waiting for their death.

Thanks to a general translation of events from the press conference by Cavid Ağa https://twitter.com/cavidaga/status/1404773233237409796
General rule for those new to the region don't trust Turkish sources except as general confirmation https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/dip ... ted-shusha

Just a couple of quick points here for the sake of accuracy.

1) 'Invaded into Lake Sev' is perhaps a poor choice of phrasing since Lake Sev (easily confused with the much larger Lake Sevan) straddles the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan. "Took control of the heights overlooking Lake Sev on the Armenian side of the border" would perhaps work better.

The phrasing I've used is that of Armenians I personally know in the region, both in Artsakh and Armenia. I'd argue both phrasings are correct but I will add a link so no one confuses it with lake Sevan.

2) Slightly oddly, you perhaps downplay the significance of Azeri rhetoric as regards the 'Zangezur Corridor'. The language from Baku over the proposed corridor has frequently been heated in recent months. Aliyev told Azeri state media in April 2021 that:

The creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We are implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not. If she wants, we will solve this issue easier, if she does not want, we will solve it by force.

Just as before and during the war, I said that they must free themselves from our lands, or we will expel them by force. And so it happened. The same will be the fate of the Zangezur corridor.

Our main rival is time, because the construction of a railway and a highway takes time. Therefore, all forces have been mobilized to implement this project. Thus, the Azerbaijani people will return to Zangezur, which was taken away from us 101 years ago.

And in an international conference he went quite a bit further (see about halfway through that link):

So, when I say that Zangazur is an ancient Azerbaijani land, this is truth. Zangazur was given to Armenia in 1920-101 years ago. Before that it belonged to us. When I say that Goyche, which they call Sevan now, is the lake where Azerbaijanis lived, it is also the truth. It’s enough to look at the map of beginning of the 20th century and you will not find Sevan there, you will see Goyche. The same with Yerevan. They destroyed the historical part of Yerevan. It is an obvious fact. Azerbaijanis lived there, including my ancestors. So, this is the fact, but it does not mean that we have territorial claims. Yes, I can tell you even more, maybe you know but don’t want to mention, maybe you don’t know. I even said that we will return there. Yes, I said that. But I didn’t say we will return there on tanks. I said that we will return. It means that why not. If we are returning to Zangazur corridor, if we are using the road, why should not we return to Yerevan? I think that the time will come and we will do it. So, once again, thank you for this question. It allowed me to make clarification and also to present my position we will remember our history, but we don’t have any territorial claims against any country including Armenia.

It's an odd paragraph. 'We don't have any territorial claims' doesn't seem to be wholly compatible with stating that Lake Sevan 'is the lake where Azerbaijanis lived', claiming that Yerevan is historically an Azeri city, that before 1920 'Zangazur' 'belonged to us', and stating that 'we will return' to both 'Zangazur' and Yerevan. Even acknowledging that he said 'I didn't say we would return there on tanks', the general tone is a bit chest-thumping.

Armenia, inevitably, sees the issue differently. They agree that the peace agreement brokered by Russia calls for the following (see the section headed 'What does the tripartite agreement say?'):

All economic and transport links in the region are being unblocked. The Republic of Armenia guarantees the safety of transport links between the western regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic in order to organize the unimpeded movement of citizens, vehicles and goods in both directions. Control over transport communication is carried out by the bodies of the Border Service of the FSB of Russia.

By agreement of the Parties, the construction of new transport communications linking the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic with the western regions of Azerbaijan will be ensured.

As far as the Armenians are concerned, this means unblocking previously existing communication routes, primarily the old rail line along the Aras River on Armenia's far southern border with Iran. The highly mountainous territory makes it difficult to do anything more ambitious, though it's not clear if the protocol requires restoring the old highway link running south from Yerevan to Nakhichevan.

So Aliyev's rhetoric does seem rather unnecessarily heated given Armenia isn't disputing the parts of the protocol that require unblocking past transport links.


And one quick note that both sides are seeing fit to gloss over... Turkey has a land border with Nakhchivan, via a tongue of land extending east of Mount Ararat, through which the Turks have built a modern highway. Nakhchivan also has a border crossing with Iran at Julfa. The exclave isn't remotely cut off (or rather, it's remote, but by no means cut off).

I didn't mean to sound as if I'm downplaying Aliyev's rhetoric and seeming military ambitions towards Armenia proper, the OP was written more quickly then I should have.