Communism: Discussion on practicalities

[Ifreann]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

Further away.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

1. [Citation needed]
2. The path towards communism can be paved without a coercive government.
3. Stalin was a right-winger in the context of the revolution and governed over what effectively became a state capitalist entity.
4. Communism entails a stateless and classless society. You're thinking of state socialism, which, again, is not necessary.
5. kek
6. Soviet Russia was not communist.
7. Name a communist country.

1. What the hell is a "kek"
2. Russia does not even to this day, has progressive social policies, look up how russia handles gay rights.
3. Soviet russia would literally send you to rot in a frozen hellhole if you had an opinion.
It seems to me that communism is WRONG, and DOES NOT WORK.

So you think all leftism is Soviet Russia? You do understand that dictatorship by the way happens under capitalism too, right? I mean America literally went around the world during the cold War putting dictators in power to preserve capitalism. Equating socialism with dictator and capitalism with free when they're economic systems is kinda strange.

[Greater Cesnica]

1. [Citation needed]
2. The path towards communism can be paved without a coercive government.
3. Stalin was a right-winger in the context of the revolution and governed over what effectively became a state capitalist entity.
4. Communism entails a stateless and classless society. You're thinking of state socialism, which, again, is not necessary.
5. kek
6. Soviet Russia was not communist.
7. Name a communist country.

1. What the hell is a "kek"
2. Russia does not even to this day, has progressive social policies, look up how russia handles gay rights.
3. Soviet russia would literally send you to rot in a frozen hellhole if you had an opinion.
It seems to me that communism is WRONG, and DOES NOT WORK.

1. Something Awful/4chan speak
2. That's the influence of the Orthodox Church, not Communism.
3. Again, authoritarian states are not necessary to bring forth communism.

[Salus Maior]

That's just Switzerland.

Are their towns literally run by the whole population?

Switzerland could fit my idea more if they abolished capitalism but still, that's pretty based of them to devolve most things to the towns.

Why would the entire population of the country run the town? Unless you mean the entire population of the town? In which case pretty much yes.

[Kilobugya]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

Much further away. Gig economy is a trap - workers don't have much more power, they are still subject to the whim of the platforms who control their income, the rules they must follow, who can blacklist them, ... and yet they lose all the rights won by centuries of class struggle, unions and collective bargains, sick leaves, paid holidays, unemployment benefits, protection from illegitimate termination of work contract, ...

[Greater Cesnica]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

Further away.

What angle are you looking at it from? I answered "closer" because Alan's idea would presumably entail the abolition of the capitalist workplace hierarchy and wage slavery. Still nowhere close to communism, but a tad bit closer, no?

[Greater Cesnica]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

Much further away. Gig economy is a trap - workers don't have much more power, they are still subject to the whim of the platforms who control their income, the rules they must follow, who can blacklist them, ... and yet they lose all the rights won by centuries of class struggle, unions and collective bargains, sick leaves, paid holidays, unemployment benefits, protection from illegitimate termination of work contract, ...

Oh, right. I was approaching the question with the assumption that those platforms would be abolished. If they aren't, then yes, further away.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Are their towns literally run by the whole population?

Switzerland could fit my idea more if they abolished capitalism but still, that's pretty based of them to devolve most things to the towns.

Why would the entire population of the country run the town? Unless you mean the entire population of the town? In which case pretty much yes.

Yeah I mean like imagine a town where they have a town hall meeting and say "okay so we're thinking about building a new bike trail but we want your opinion on it. We're passing around papers right now, please sign off on whether we should build a new bike path or not."

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

1. [Citation needed]
2. The path towards communism can be paved without a coercive government.
3. Stalin was a right-winger in the context of the revolution and governed over what effectively became a state capitalist entity.
4. Communism entails a stateless and classless society. You're thinking of state socialism, which, again, is not necessary.
5. kek
6. Soviet Russia was not communist.
7. Name a communist country.

1. What the hell is a "kek"
2. Russia does not even to this day, has progressive social policies, look up how russia handles gay rights.
3. Soviet russia would literally send you to rot in a frozen hellhole if you had an opinion.
It seems to me that communism is WRONG, and DOES NOT WORK.

The key point is: the Soviet, authoritarian model is not the only way.

[Kubra]

Further away.

What angle are you looking at it from? I answered "closer" because Alan's idea would presumably entail the abolition of the capitalist workplace hierarchy and wage slavery. Still nowhere close to communism, but a tad bit closer, no?

Because it doesn't involve big ol' factories.
Unironically.

[Duvniask]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

There's nothing weird about it. You unwittingly stumbled upon a revelation that reveals the truth about what these "market socialists" are.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Tfw you're supposed to be free because Chile is a capitalist society, but instead of seeing freedom you just see the ocean beneath the helicopter.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

There's nothing weird about it. You unwittingly stumbled upon a revelation that reveals the truth about what these "market socialists" are.

This is why I'm hesitant with market socialism. I used to be a market socialist back in time during my transformation from being a social Democrat to a full fledged leftist, but now I genuinely worry that a market socialist economy would be a slippery slope back to capitalism.

[Greater Cesnica]

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

There's nothing weird about it. You unwittingly stumbled upon a revelation that reveals the truth about what these "market socialists" are.

Then I presume you recognize that the PRC is a state capitalist entity, alongside the USSR being one?

[Enjuku]

If everyone was self-employed selling their services in the gig economy, is that closer to communism, or further away?

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

I think market socialism covers so many different things, it's easy to equate it with libertarianism.

You got market socialists who support the PRC and market socialists who essentially want every business to be a coop. It's confusing lol

[Greater Cesnica]

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

I think market socialism covers so many different things, it's easy to equate it with libertarianism.

You got market socialists who support the PRC and market socialists who essentially want every business to be a coop. It's confusing lol

I fall in the latter camp.

[Kilobugya]

Communism is bad in my opinion for these reasons.
1. It does not make everyone's life better by raising them up, it pulls everyone down.
2. The government should not be allowed to take my money and property.
3. It paves the way for psychotic dictators like Stalin to take power.
4. A centrally planned economy is not as good as a free one, because, in the centrally planned economy, you have no choice in your job, and the best people for the job are not picked.
5. Did I say that the government should not be allowed to steal from its citizens? Well, let me say it again.
6. Soviet Russia did NOT have progressive social policies.
7. Communist countries just become police states 99.9 percent of the time.

1. [[citation needed]]
2. The employers shouldn't be allowed to take the wealth created by workers and put it in their pocket, that's actually a much stronger issue. But there is no "government" under communism anyway.
3. Yeah because capitalism doesn't pave the way for psychotic dictators like Hitler, Mussolini or Franco.
4. A centrally planned economy isn't necessarily the shape communism will take, it's just one possible way. And a centrally planned economy doesn't mean you have no choice in your job, actually, under capitalism most people don't - they have to accept crappy, low-paid, painful, dangerous job or starve. As for the "the best people for the job", capitalism is very bad at it - ever heard of the Peter principle ?
5. Taxes are not theft, at all. But in communism there is no government and no taxes, anyway.
6. Hrm, it did, in many forms, depending on the periods at least. That doesn't excuse the crimes of Stalin (or to a lesser extend his successors) but that's just factually wrong.
7. The 99.9 percent number is non-sense, but yeah "communist" places tend to be attacked by the capitalists with such a level of reckless violence that often either they get slaughtered or they become a police state for survival. I blame the capitalists for that.

[Enjuku]

I think market socialism covers so many different things, it's easy to equate it with libertarianism.

You got market socialists who support the PRC and market socialists who essentially want every business to be a coop. It's confusing lol

I fall in the latter camp.

Other than minor things like coop vs union, what really separates your views from say left-libertarians or syndicalists?

Class analysis? Tolerating a hierarchy in the workplace?

[Bigpipstan]

I feel like Revolutionary Catalonia would be a good place to start when researching this topic.

[Salus Maior]

Why would the entire population of the country run the town? Unless you mean the entire population of the town? In which case pretty much yes.

Yeah I mean like imagine a town where they have a town hall meeting and say "okay so we're thinking about building a new bike trail but we want your opinion on it. We're passing around papers right now, please sign off on whether we should build a new bike path or not."

They do almost everything by referendum in Switzerland. Although, while that has made Switzerland more progressive than America in some aspects, Switzerland is also more conservative in other ways. For example, they didn't give women the vote until the 70's or so, and the last cantonal holdout on that issue didn't change until the 90's.

Which actually leads me to theorize that decentralized structures actually lend themselves to conservatism. But that's another thread.

[Greater Cesnica]

I fall in the latter camp.

Other than minor things like coop vs union, what really separates your views from say left-libertarians or syndicalists?

Class analysis? Tolerating a hierarchy in the workplace?

I am a left-libertarian. I don't like workplace hierarchies.

[Salus Maior]

I've asked myself before if right libertarianism and market socialism are really as different as they say they are partially because of this.

It's like the weirdest version of horseshoe theory.

I think market socialism covers so many different things, it's easy to equate it with libertarianism.

You got market socialists who support the PRC and market socialists who essentially want every business to be a coop. It's confusing lol

I'm all for co-ops. I don't identify as a socialist of any sort, however.

[Enjuku]

Other than minor things like coop vs union, what really separates your views from say left-libertarians or syndicalists?

Class analysis? Tolerating a hierarchy in the workplace?

I am a left-libertarian. I don't like workplace hierarchies.

You confused me by saying you fall into the camp of market socialists wanting everyone to be a coop

Cooperatives exist already and they're very hierarchal. Whole Foods has coops.

[Duvniask]

To be frank, these threads always turn to shit. You have someone asking about the simple practicality of communist society and what it might conceivably look like, then someone shows up and thinks they're smart for mentioning gulags or somesuch and then the entire thread derails. It then turns into a battle over definitions where a bunch of good-for-nothings try, and fail, to explain communism or inevitably contaminate the discussion with their own edgy off-brand version of "socialism".

If I was a moderator on this site, things would have to be whipped back into shape immediately.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

There's nothing weird about it. You unwittingly stumbled upon a revelation that reveals the truth about what these "market socialists" are.

This is why I'm hesitant with market socialism. I used to be a market socialist back in time during my transformation from being a social Democrat to a full fledged leftist, but now I genuinely worry that a market socialist economy would be a slippery slope back to capitalism.

Maybe mutualism is worth considering then. I personally thinks it strikes a good balance between the market and the non-market tendencies. Even more than market socialist co-ops, mutualism is a fundamental restructuring of the notion of value around labor that makes it completely incompatible with capitalism while retaining the immediate advantages of a market.