Communism: Discussion on practicalities

[Kowani]

The lifehack of Western democracies of course is to not make their target ethnic minorities 'fully enfranchised participants'. Just like China, in fact.



Yeah, because most Western settler colonial states successfully ethnically cleansed their ethnic minorities whose only recourse was violence. See Israel's ongoing bombardment of Gaza as an example of what Western democracies do while those ethnic groups are armed and because 'their only option is violence'.

I define liberal democracy as a democratic regime that protects property rights, civil rights, and minority rights. If it doesn't do that, then it isn't a liberal democracy in a meaningful way.

this just defines "liberal democracy" into a very narrow category of state that does "good thing X"

[Senkaku]

The lifehack of Western democracies of course is to not make their target ethnic minorities 'fully enfranchised participants'. Just like China, in fact.



Yeah, because most Western settler colonial states successfully ethnically cleansed their ethnic minorities whose only recourse was violence. See Israel's ongoing bombardment of Gaza as an example of what Western democracies do while those ethnic groups are armed and because 'their only option is violence'.

I define liberal democracy as a democratic regime that protects property rights, civil rights, and minority rights. If it doesn't do that, then it isn't a liberal democracy in a meaningful way.

Name a liberal democracy

All things considered what Israel is doing in Gaza is not as bad as what China has done to Tibet and Xinjiang,

What does that have to do with anything

but I do not want to get drawn into that tedious debate.

Who’s debating that and why lmao

They are obviously a flawed liberal democracy.

You just created a substantive definition of liberal democracy— a democratic government that protects property rights, civil rights, and minority rights; anything that doesn’t do that is not a liberal democracy. Which means you have to demonstrate that Israel is/does all these things to say it’s a liberal democracy, or if it doesn’t, then it isn’t a liberal democracy in any meaningful way and “flawed” is just a mealy-mouthed weasel word because you’re uncomfortable taking your own ideas to their logical conclusion

[South Reinkalistan]

The USSR displaced over half a million "problematic" ethnic minorities to Central Asia in conditions where about a quarter of them died and then tried to erase their heritage by repopulating their land with other peoples.

Damn bro... looks like Stalin committed a few shitty abuses of power. Guess Communism is over!! Sorry guys, emancipation from the chains of capital is overrated now, a Georgian who died 70 years ago did a handful of bad things

[Azalfia]

The USSR displaced over half a million "problematic" ethnic minorities to Central Asia in conditions where about a quarter of them died and then tried to erase their heritage by repopulating their land with other peoples.

Damn bro... looks like Stalin committed a few shitty abuses of power. Guess Communism is over!! Sorry guys, emancipation from the chains of capital is overrated now, a Georgian who died 70 years ago did a handful of bad things

>handful
From one socialist to another man, jesus christ. I definitely need to do more reading on his policies, but come on. Displacing half a million people is not a "handful of bad things". That is a half million human beings, forced from there homes, and relocated. Of those, 25%, a quarter, died.

[South Reinkalistan]

Damn bro... looks like Stalin committed a few shitty abuses of power. Guess Communism is over!! Sorry guys, emancipation from the chains of capital is overrated now, a Georgian who died 70 years ago did a handful of bad things

>handful
From one socialist to another man, jesus christ. I definitely need to do more reading on his policies, but come on. Displacing half a million people is not a "handful of bad things". That is a half million human beings, forced from there homes, and relocated. Of those, 25%, a quarter, died.

Realistically the policy behind the ethnic relocations was one that emerged from a lot of stress placed upon a revolutionary state where ethnicity was being used by surrounding imperialist powers as an attempt to deconstruct it from the inside. This led to desperate measures which had to be taken, in the view of the people at the time -- "for the greater good". Of course this was not the case and indeed the forced relocation of human beings from their home was a monstrous atrocity, but realistically hindsight is 20-20 and I don't see how the existence of this act refutes Communist principles nor soaks the entire USSR in blood.

[Northern Connecticut]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

[South Reinkalistan]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

the communism understander appears to have logged on

[Azalfia]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

Hey my friend, I think you may not understand what communism or socialism is, and I don't mean any harm to it. Would you mine defining it? I'd love to help explain.

[Northern Connecticut]

Yes, I have. I am allowed to say what I like. Don't like it? go cry to the mods.

[Kubra]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

oh come now, there were hardly any taxes in the Soviet Union.

[Northern Connecticut]

Communism is an ECONOMIC system where the government takes your wealth and redistributes it to poor people. (its not a social system by the way.)

[South Reinkalistan]

Communism is an ECONOMIC system where the government takes your wealth and redistributes it to poor people. (its not a social system by the way.)

Communism is a state of society whereupon there is no division on the basis of class and therefore no antagonisms exist to generate a state structure

literally everything you said was wrong

[Azalfia]

Yes, I have. I am allowed to say what I like. Don't like it? go cry to the mods.

Alright, let me define socialism to you, because maybe then you'll see where I am coming from with my views. To understand, you need to know 2 simple terms: means of production and social control. Means of production is factories, or farms for example. In capitalist societies, these things are owned by private individuals or corporations. In a socialist society, this is owned through social control: while there isn't one exact definition, here's a few possible alternatives. Imagine a factory. In a socially controlled economy, here's what that factory might look like when it comes to control.

-That factory could be nationalized and under the control of the state, in a economy planned by the state. Here, there are not markets, and through the government, and maybe with local participation, the economy is planned based on human need and economy wide plans for production, resource allocation, etc.
-The factory is a worker co-op. Within it, the workers in the factory run the operation democratically; they vote on the working hours, the wages, and whatnot. They get around and vote on the decisions of it. Maybe the market economy still exists, with companies competing, but there under the control of workers.

This is vastly simplified, but I hope you understand.

[Atheris]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

If this is communism, then I guess I'm a communist.

Me.

Who has said numerous times that I am against communism.

Who used to be a communist before I actually read Marx.

Who thinks that socialism is socially and economically impossible.

Yes, I am a communist. За Родину, за Сталина, ура!

[Kubra]

Communism is an ECONOMIC system where the government takes your wealth and redistributes it to poor people. (its not a social system by the way.)

and what did that look like in the year 1967

[Kowani]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

none of this has anything to do with communism

[Azalfia]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

What your referring to here by the way is a social democracy; capitalist markets still exist. But now the government provides generous welfare; free healthcare, free education and whatnot.

[Atheris]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

What your referring to here by the way is a social democracy; capitalist markets still exist. But now the government provides generous welfare; free healthcare, free education and whatnot.

aka basedville population me

[Samudera Darussalam]

Communism is bad. Why should I have to pay for other people's things? I don't want to pay for everyone's free healthcare, and I don't think the government should take more of my money. The US sinks billions into debt every year, and now they just want to take my money to pay for illegal immigrants healthcare.

Wow, a lot of communist nations in Europe and Canada.

[Azalfia]

What your referring to here by the way is a social democracy; capitalist markets still exist. But now the government provides generous welfare; free healthcare, free education and whatnot.

aka basedville population me

While I disagree, I think we can both agree "communism is when free healthcare" is uhhh, interesting definition.

[South Reinkalistan]

Who used to be a communist before I actually read Marx.

1. why were you a communist before you read marx

2. what works of marx did you read

[Atheris]

Who used to be a communist before I actually read Marx.

1. why were you a communist before you read marx

2. what works of marx did you read

1. because i was a moron

2. The Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, and The Poverty of Philosophy, although I have to admit it's been ~2 years since I've read any besides the first.

[Major-Tom]

As of current, I see no feasible way for communism to work in practice.

Hypothetically, let's say that there was a silver bullet that could cause communism to work in practice, the stateless, classless version that is deemed by many purists to be the most proper incarnation. It would still take the implementation of communist policies across a large scale of countries to get anywhere, lest they find themselves unable to compete in a global marketplace that is fundamentally capitalist. It is why many communists are ardent internationalists because they know that for it to be even remotely practical, it would have to be in place around many facets of the globe.

Even then, I'm not convinced that such a silver bullet exists, nor am I convinced that the dream of such a utopian society is even remotely attainable. Unless dozens upon dozens of nation-states wish to move rapidly towards a non-market-based approach, we (lefties) ought to consider what our end goals are, and work backward from there. With that in mind, the best approach is usually for a state to offer generous programs, safety nets, and comprehensive government services to their people. Countries that were once developing (but are now middle or middle to high-income), have found that the only way to fund such a system in the first place is through market reforms where governments can increase revenues to the point where they can finance lofty projects.

It is fundamentally imperfect but works far better than cutthroat laissez-faire capitalism or the ruination associated with communist transitions, be it from the perspective of Marxism-Leninism or Left-Communism. But that's just the thing, there are rarely silver bullet solutions in governance, and if the "least worst" option is also the most intellectually consistent from a policy standpoint, it's usually the best option until the facts and circumstances around you change.

[South Reinkalistan]

1. because i was a moron

understandable

2. The Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, and The Poverty of Philosophy, although I have to admit it's been ~2 years since I've read any besides the first.

the basic principle as to when everyone claims to have read all three volumes of capital on the internet is to immediately presume bullshit, and even then the other two aren't great enough to develop a proper understanding of communism tbh; but go off ig

[Atheris]

1. because i was a moron

understandable

2. The Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, and The Poverty of Philosophy, although I have to admit it's been ~2 years since I've read any besides the first.

the basic principle as to when everyone claims to have read all three volumes of capital is to immediately presume bullshit, and even then the other two aren't great enough to develop a proper understanding of communism tbh; but go off ig

marxists.org, the website I used, only has the first volume, so I haven't read the other two (yet). I think I used another pdf website for The Poverty of Philosophy. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: Found it.