Did Hercules Act Without Honour?

[Thermodolia]

The scenario explores that fine gap (if it exists) between following the terms of a distasteful contract and the personal honors of heroism

Does that space exist, in this scenario, that fine space where Hercules can say “Yes I breached a contract, but I’m still within the ambit of honour?” Alternatively you can argue other contract law principles to try and say there wasn’t a breach etc

I like how Disney cartoons can provoke such critical thinking

Personal honor is fucking dumb

[Heloin]

What does that have to do with Classical and ancient Greek Heroics?

A hero looks out for the people right? But is he doing it for the right reasons? That was the point of the Hercules.

That's not how Heroics work in the classical sense.

And the thread asks how that intersects with a contractual breach (whether the two can be squared)

You're probably overthinking it.

What does that have to do with Classical and ancient Greek Heroics?

Not much to do with heroics, per se.

But cardiomegaly is a real condition, and those happen to be Greek words.

Of course, in the real world, an enlarged heart doesn't make you a better person. It makes you a deader one.

Poor Grinch.

[Ethel mermania]

What about the size of heart thing that Disney was trying to go for with Hercules?

What is this Dr Seuss?

As Neanderthaland's point is correct, its not looking good for the long term health of the grinch either

Ninja'd by the former rabbit.

[Infected Mushroom]

The scenario explores that fine gap (if it exists) between following the terms of a distasteful contract and the personal honors of heroism

Does that space exist, in this scenario, that fine space where Hercules can say “Yes I breached a contract, but I’m still within the ambit of honour?” Alternatively you can argue other contract law principles to try and say there wasn’t a breach etc

I like how Disney cartoons can provoke such critical thinking

Personal honor is fucking dumb

How come?

[Ifreann]

What does that have to do with Classical and ancient Greek Heroics?

A hero looks out for the people right? But is he doing it for the right reasons? That was the point of the Hercules. And the thread asks how that intersects with a contractual breach (whether the two can be squared)

What contractual breach? What contract law was in force in the fictional setting of the Underworld some time before the 6th century BCE?

[Infected Mushroom]

A hero looks out for the people right? But is he doing it for the right reasons? That was the point of the Hercules. And the thread asks how that intersects with a contractual breach (whether the two can be squared)

What contractual breach? What contract law was in force in the fictional setting of the Underworld some time before the 6th century BCE?

Contract law and principles predate the common law

Even in ancient Greek times they had contractual practices and principles; it’s necessary for commerce and trade and many Greek cities were big on trade

Such principles would inform the mythology of the time too and Disney’s interpretation of them

[Ifreann]

What contractual breach? What contract law was in force in the fictional setting of the Underworld some time before the 6th century BCE?

Contract law and principles predate the common law

Even in ancient Greek times they had contractual practices and principles; it’s necessary for commerce and trade and many Greek cities were big on trade

Such principles would inform the mythology of the time too and Disney’s interpretation of them

But what were those laws?

[The Free Joy State]

What contractual breach? What contract law was in force in the fictional setting of the Underworld some time before the 6th century BCE?

Contract law and principles predate the common law

Even in ancient Greek times they had contractual practices and principles; it’s necessary for commerce and trade and many Greek cities were big on trade

Such principles would inform the mythology of the time too and Disney’s interpretation of them

Actually, Hades' trick would have rendered the contract null in the time it was set:

If a man fails to fulfill an agreed contract - unless he had contracted to do something forbidden by law or decree, or gave his consent under some iniquitous pressure, or was involuntarily prevented from fulfilling his contract because of some unlooked-for accident - an action for such an unfulfilled agreement should be brought in the tribal courts, if the parties have not previously been able to reconcile their differences before arbitrators (their neighbors, that is).

Plato, The Laws, Book 11, §23, Contracts.

Hercules "gave his consent under iniquitous pressure". Just as today, coercion renders a contract void.

[Ifreann]

Contract law and principles predate the common law

Even in ancient Greek times they had contractual practices and principles; it’s necessary for commerce and trade and many Greek cities were big on trade

Such principles would inform the mythology of the time too and Disney’s interpretation of them

Actually, Hades' trick would have rendered the contract null in the time it was set:

If a man fails to fulfill an agreed contract - unless he had contracted to do something forbidden by law or decree, or gave his consent under some iniquitous pressure, or was involuntarily prevented from fulfilling his contract because of some unlooked-for accident - an action for such an unfulfilled agreement should be brought in the tribal courts, if the parties have not previously been able to reconcile their differences before arbitrators (their neighbors, that is).

Plato, The Laws, Book 11, §23, Contracts.

Hercules "gave his consent under iniquitous pressure". Just as today, coercion renders a contract void.

There you go, straight from Plato himself.

[Just-An-Illusion]

Since when did you care about honor...? Last time I checked you would give your Jewish wife away to the Nazis. Because the state told you so.

[Infected Mushroom]

Contract law and principles predate the common law

Even in ancient Greek times they had contractual practices and principles; it’s necessary for commerce and trade and many Greek cities were big on trade

Such principles would inform the mythology of the time too and Disney’s interpretation of them

Actually, Hades' trick would have rendered the contract null in the time it was set:

If a man fails to fulfill an agreed contract - unless he had contracted to do something forbidden by law or decree, or gave his consent under some iniquitous pressure, or was involuntarily prevented from fulfilling his contract because of some unlooked-for accident - an action for such an unfulfilled agreement should be brought in the tribal courts, if the parties have not previously been able to reconcile their differences before arbitrators (their neighbors, that is).

Plato, The Laws, Book 11, §23, Contracts.

Hercules "gave his consent under iniquitous pressure". Just as today, coercion renders a contract void.

Except in the movie, Hades didn’t propose the deal. Hercules did.

Hercules said “You like making deals? How about this...”

It was actually his idea.

Iniquitous pressure would fail in court in most cases if the party wanting to invoke it was the party that initiated the entire contract without much prompting.

Hades wasn’t going to make any deal at all. Hercules came and said the first word on it.

As for illegality of actions, Hades is a god of the underworld so matters of life and death seem to fall within his jurisdiction.

[The Free Joy State]

Actually, Hades' trick would have rendered the contract null in the time it was set:

Plato, The Laws, Book 11, §23, Contracts.

Hercules "gave his consent under iniquitous pressure". Just as today, coercion renders a contract void.

Except in the movie, Hades didn’t propose the deal. Hercules did.

Hercules said “You like making deals? How about this...”

It was actually his idea.

Iniquitous pressure would fail in court in most cases if the party wanting to invoke it was the party that initiated the entire contract without much prompting.

Hades wasn’t going to make any deal at all. Hercules came and said the first word on it.

As for illegality of actions, Hades is a god of the underworld so matters of life and death seem to fall within his jurisdiction.

Never seen the movie so I must assume that is what happens.

Still... Imminent death or harm to self or a loved one is pressure and prompting and a promise made to avert that is very voidable (it comes under "Duress to the Person", I believe; which voids a contract as merely one of, not just the only, reason for entering into a contract).

Say someone accosts you (general "you") and your loved one in the street, with a gun, and threatens to kill them and you scream -- unthinkingly -- "Please don't. I'll give you my house if you just leave us alone." They agree and you even sign a contract saying "Dear would-be-murderer, I.O.U my house" but instead direct them to the police station and manage to scream: "Help, he is trying to harm us." before any harm comes to anyone -- would they later be able to use the I.O.U to claim your house?

Or, less extreme example: if someone comes to your (again, general) home and puts undue pressure on you to buy their product, making you feel uncomfortable in your home and you sign just to make them go away, there is a mandatory seven-day cooling off period in which you can say: "I never wanted it and just wanted them to leave my home."

Agreeing to something, under pressure, does not mean you cannot get out of a contract. The Ancient Greeks were familiar with this concept.

[Nevertopia]

Please consider an ethical question that arises in the Disney Hercules movie:

Hades attempts to have Zeus overthrown as king of Olympus.

Meg dies (to try and save Hercules from a cyclops sent by Hades) and her soul ends up in the underworld in a green whirlpool filled with floating dead souls.

Hercules, a mortal demo-god and son of Zeus (the hero) goes to the underworld and wants to save Meg.

Hades and Hercules make a deal:
Hercules can go in the river and get Meg out, but then Hercules stays.

Hercules jumps into the whirlpool to try and catch and drag out Meg’s soul.

Hades then says: “Oh did I forget to mention the part where you’re mortal and will never make it out of the water alive?”

When Hercules jumps in, he immediately begins to age and die but he keeps swimming. But then because he’s “proven himself a hero with a true heart” he transforms into a literal god, grabs Meg, and gets out.

He then leaves with Meg.

...

The question is this:
Did Hercules act with honor? Didn’t he promise he’d stay in the thing? How does becoming a god void anything? Or is the whole deal null because Hades didn’t disclose at the beginning that Hercules was supposed to die in the water? But then again... why would Hades’ bad faith excuse Hercules’ blatant breach?

That’s a lot of questions to consider but based on your understanding of honor, contract law and principles, good faith/bad faith, and the nature and terms of the agreement... did Hercules act within the confines of honor?

Your options:

1. Hercules acted with honour, his conduct wasn’t in breach of contract principles
2. Hercules acted with honour, although his conduct was in breach of contract principles
3. Hercules acted without honour, his conduct wasn’t in breach of contract principles
4. Hercules acted without honour, his conduct was in breach of contract principles

Please justify.

I’m going to have to go with option 4. He should have stayed in the pool. He got the benefits of the deal (Hades allowed him to try and get Meg) and he got Meg out, he should have carried out his promised obligation. Yes Hades didn’t say the whole context, but that’s got little to do with the basic setup of the deal which was an exchange of benefits... Hercules saving a life he cared about, Hades getting Hercules soul as leverage against Zeus.

hercules acted with honor and hades broke the contract principle.

[Ethel mermania]

Actually, Hades' trick would have rendered the contract null in the time it was set:

Plato, The Laws, Book 11, §23, Contracts.

Hercules "gave his consent under iniquitous pressure". Just as today, coercion renders a contract void.

Except in the movie, Hades didn’t propose the deal. Hercules did.

Hercules said “You like making deals? How about this...”

It was actually his idea.

Iniquitous pressure would fail in court in most cases if the party wanting to invoke it was the party that initiated the entire contract without much prompting.

Hades wasn’t going to make any deal at all. Hercules came and said the first word on it.

As for illegality of actions, Hades is a god of the underworld so matters of life and death seem to fall within his jurisdiction.

Trial for the underworld, Southern District New York is controlling.

[Atheris]

What is this Dr Seuss?

As Neanderthaland's point is correct, its not looking good for the long term health of the grinch either

Ninja'd by the former rabbit.

To quote TF2:

"Get what gift-givers call "the Smissmas spirit," and what cardiologists call hypertrophic cardiomyopathy."

[Infected Mushroom]

Except in the movie, Hades didn’t propose the deal. Hercules did.

Hercules said “You like making deals? How about this...”

It was actually his idea.

Iniquitous pressure would fail in court in most cases if the party wanting to invoke it was the party that initiated the entire contract without much prompting.

Hades wasn’t going to make any deal at all. Hercules came and said the first word on it.

As for illegality of actions, Hades is a god of the underworld so matters of life and death seem to fall within his jurisdiction.

Trial for the underworld, Southern District New York is controlling.

Let me put it this way.

Let’s say I have a ton of economic power over you.

But then you come to see me on your own volition and you suggest we do a contract (I’ve said nothing). I then agree to the contract exactly as you’ve stated it (I don’t suggest any counter-offers or switches to the terms).

Then when it goes badly you go to the court and want the whole contract undone because i had undue/coercive influence over its formation so the whole thing should be thrown out. I don’t think the court will undo the whole contract... I mean, you didn’t sign a standard form
Contract; you’re the architect, initiator and sole author of the thing.

[Ethel mermania]

Trial for the underworld, Southern District New York is controlling.

Let me put it this way.

Let’s say I have a ton of economic power over you.

But then you come to see me on your own volition and you suggest we do a contract (I’ve said nothing). I then agree to the contract exactly as you’ve stated it (I don’t suggest any counter-offers or switches to the terms).

Then when it goes badly you go to the court and want the whole contract undone because i had undue/coercive influence over its formation so the whole thing should be thrown out. I don’t think the court will undo the whole contract... I mean, you didn’t sign a standard form
Contract; you’re the architect, initiator and sole author of the thing.

I am not a contracts attorney. I dont know that a Hercules was under duress claim would fail

[The Free Joy State]

Trial for the underworld, Southern District New York is controlling.

Let me put it this way.

Let’s say I have a ton of economic power over you.

But then you come to see me on your own volition and you suggest we do a contract (I’ve said nothing). I then agree to the contract exactly as you’ve stated it (I don’t suggest any counter-offers or switches to the terms).

Then when it goes badly you go to the court and want the whole contract undone because i had undue/coercive influence over its formation so the whole thing should be thrown out. I don’t think the court will undo the whole contract... I mean, you didn’t sign a standard form
Contract; you’re the architect, initiator and sole author of the thing.

You never did answer my considerably more comparable situation to the pressure Heracles was under -- duress caused by personal threat to a loved one (and, yes, if someone has a "ton" of financial power over another person, that could be cause to go to court and get the contract looked at; I believe that's economic duress in contract law):

Say someone accosts you (general "you") and your loved one in the street, with a gun, and threatens to kill them and you scream -- unthinkingly -- "Please don't. I'll give you my house if you just leave us alone." They agree and you even sign a contract saying "Dear would-be-murderer, I.O.U my house" but instead direct them to the police station and manage to scream: "Help, he is trying to harm us." before any harm comes to anyone -- would they later be able to use the I.O.U to claim your house?

[Infected Mushroom]

Let me put it this way.

Let’s say I have a ton of economic power over you.

But then you come to see me on your own volition and you suggest we do a contract (I’ve said nothing). I then agree to the contract exactly as you’ve stated it (I don’t suggest any counter-offers or switches to the terms).

Then when it goes badly you go to the court and want the whole contract undone because i had undue/coercive influence over its formation so the whole thing should be thrown out. I don’t think the court will undo the whole contract... I mean, you didn’t sign a standard form
Contract; you’re the architect, initiator and sole author of the thing.

Meg is already dead. Nothing further would happen to her. Her soul is just sitting in underworld river/whirlpool/lake.

There was no threat. Hercules wanted something that he wasn’t entitled to. In Greek mythology, usually those who died stayed dead.

In fact, Hades didn’t want Meg to die. He made a previous deal with Hercules where Hercules would lose his powers but would get them back if Meg got hurt. Meg sacrificed herself to help Hercules and activate this contract loophole.

[The Free Joy State]

Meg is already dead. Nothing further would happen to her. Her soul is just sitting in underworld river/whirlpool/lake.

There was no threat. Hercules wanted something that he wasn’t entitled to. In Greek mythology, usually those who died stayed dead.

In fact, Hades didn’t want Meg to die. He made a previous deal with Hercules where Hercules would lose his powers but would get them back if Meg got hurt. Meg sacrificed herself to help Hercules and activate this contract loophole.

Again, I have to only accept what you say on the Disney movie made when it hacked apart the tale of Heracles and Megara (as I have not seen it). A deal made to save a life, even if broken, can be argued to be legal duress. Also, as Greek Gods were always doing various dishonourable deeds (Hera tried to kill Heracles in the cradle and tricked him into killing his family), ascribing human notions of "honour" to their actions seems to miss point of the myths.

Finally, I at least answered your comparison (irrelevant to the hypothetical as it was). Cutting mine out entirely is far from sporting.

Here it is again, in case it was an accident:

You never did answer my considerably more comparable situation to the pressure Heracles was under -- duress caused by personal threat to a loved one (and, yes, if someone has a "ton" of financial power over another person, that could be cause to go to court and get the contract looked at; I believe that's economic duress in contract law):

Say someone accosts you (general "you") and your loved one in the street, with a gun, and threatens to kill them and you scream -- unthinkingly -- "Please don't. I'll give you my house if you just leave us alone." They agree and you even sign a contract saying "Dear would-be-murderer, I.O.U my house" but instead direct them to the police station and manage to scream: "Help, he is trying to harm us." before any harm comes to anyone -- would they later be able to use the I.O.U to claim your house?

[Infected Mushroom]

Meg is already dead. Nothing further would happen to her. Her soul is just sitting in underworld river/whirlpool/lake.

There was no threat. Hercules wanted something that he wasn’t entitled to. In Greek mythology, usually those who died stayed dead.

In fact, Hades didn’t want Meg to die. He made a previous deal with Hercules where Hercules would lose his powers but would get them back if Meg got hurt. Meg sacrificed herself to help Hercules and activate this contract loophole.

Again, I have to only accept what you say on the Disney movie made when it hacked apart the tale of Heracles and Megara (as I have not seen it). A deal made to save a life, even if broken, can be argued to be legal duress.

Finally, I at least answered your comparison (irrelevant to the hypothetical as it was). Cutting mine out entirely is far from sporting.

Here it is again, in case it was an accident:

You never did answer my considerably more comparable situation to the pressure Heracles was under -- duress caused by personal threat to a loved one (and, yes, if someone has a "ton" of financial power over another person, that could be cause to go to court and get the contract looked at; I believe that's economic duress in contract law):

In the situation you describe, the contract will probably be voided due to duress.

However, in your situation,

A threat is made against living people to induce entry into the contract
The party doing the threatening is the initiator and architect of the contract

But in my situation

The allegedly threatened party is already dead (and in no further additional danger)
The party claiming that they’ve been threatened is the one designing and proposing the deal (and going to the other party to push for it)

[The Free Joy State]

Again, I have to only accept what you say on the Disney movie made when it hacked apart the tale of Heracles and Megara (as I have not seen it). A deal made to save a life, even if broken, can be argued to be legal duress.

Finally, I at least answered your comparison (irrelevant to the hypothetical as it was). Cutting mine out entirely is far from sporting.

Here it is again, in case it was an accident:

In the situation you describe, the contract will probably be voided due to duress.

However, in your situation,

A threat is made against living people to induce entry into the contract
The party doing the threatening is the initiator and architect of the contract

But in my situation

The allegedly threatened party is already dead (and in no further additional danger)
The party claiming that they’ve been threatened is the one designing and proposing the deal (and going to the other party to push for it)

Incorrect. The party being threatened initiates and is the architect of the contract in my example too. The person with the gun's apparent aim is to shoot someone (they do not say they want a house). The person being threatened is the one who shouts: "I will give you my house if you leave us alone"; terms which are accepted. They bad actor (the person with the gun) is then tricked, sent to a police station and handed over.

In this version of the myth (according to the OP, Hercules offers (unbidden according to you) to go into the pool and get Megara (ignoring the fact that Hades tricked him and that lying often voids a contract anyway). He rescues her and leaves. He has tricked the bad actor who harmed her in the first place.

Very comparable.

[Infected Mushroom]

In the situation you describe, the contract will probably be voided due to duress.

However, in your situation,

A threat is made against living people to induce entry into the contract
The party doing the threatening is the initiator and architect of the contract

But in my situation

The allegedly threatened party is already dead (and in no further additional danger)
The party claiming that they’ve been threatened is the one designing and proposing the deal (and going to the other party to push for it)

Incorrect. The party being threatened initiates and is the architect of the contract in my example to. The person with the gun's only apparent aim is to shoot someone (they do not say they want the house). The person being threatened is the one who shouts: "I will give you my house if you leave us alone"; terms which are accepted. They bad actor (the person with the gun) is then tricked, sent to a police station and handed over.

In this version of the myth (according to the OP, Hercules offers (unbidden according to you) to go into the pool and get Megara (ignoring the fact that Hades tricked him and that lying often voids a contract anyway). He rescues her and leaves. He has tricked the bad actor who harmed her in the first place.

Very comparable.

I see...

But I don’t believe Hades ever made a threat. What was the threat? “Meg stays dead?” People were supposed to stay dead.

Hades wasn’t even responsible for Meg’s death. That was his cyclops goon going overboard. In fact, Hades needed Meg alive (per their previous deal) so Hercules doesn’t get his powers back. Meg dying was actually a wrench in Hades’ plans.