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Nativism vs. "your ancestors weren't from here either"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:00 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Rusozak wrote:
Not overnight no. But eventually? They're relatively recent concepts born out of nationalism and pseudo-science. I like to think future humans will look on these labels we obsess with organizing everyone under as historical oddities that came and went.

It will take intelligent aliens equally powerful as humans before the latter will look past race, nationality, and ethnicity.

So the Independence Day route

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:15 pm

Kilobugya wrote:
Atheris wrote:You say that like race and nationality and ethnicity will magically go away.


Magically ? No. Go away in the future ? Probably, yes. Like here in France we used to have "racism" and discrimination against people from some regions (Bretagne, Auvergne, ...) but nowadays it seems unthinkable. With greater travel and communication capabilities, with ever more connected world economy, with common threats like pandemics and climate change in front us, the material forces push towards more unification of the human race, and it'll either happen or we'll die, as a technology advanced race, in our petty fights over skin color, religion and place of birth.


Yeah, now you just have racism towards Muslims.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:52 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Atheris wrote:You say that like race and nationality and ethnicity will magically go away.


Magically ? No. Go away in the future ? Probably, yes. Like here in France we used to have "racism" and discrimination against people from some regions (Bretagne, Auvergne, ...) but nowadays it seems unthinkable. With greater travel and communication capabilities, with ever more connected world economy, with common threats like pandemics and climate change in front us, the material forces push towards more unification of the human race, and it'll either happen or we'll die, as a technology advanced race, in our petty fights over skin color, religion and place of birth.

There’s a difference between racism and regionalism.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:54 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
Magically ? No. Go away in the future ? Probably, yes. Like here in France we used to have "racism" and discrimination against people from some regions (Bretagne, Auvergne, ...) but nowadays it seems unthinkable. With greater travel and communication capabilities, with ever more connected world economy, with common threats like pandemics and climate change in front us, the material forces push towards more unification of the human race, and it'll either happen or we'll die, as a technology advanced race, in our petty fights over skin color, religion and place of birth.


Yeah, now you just have racism towards Muslims.


Damn so we went back to 1200.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Seangoli
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Postby Seangoli » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:45 am

Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.


Well, Native Americans constantly displaced one another through violence. We have numerous mass Graves and the like from prehistoric periods, and the historic period is marred by a near endless series of displacements and conflicts, some of which could very easily be viewed as ethnic cleansing on the scale of what Europeans did (I can rattle off a few tribes that were wiped out, or nearly wiped out, quite intentionally by displacing tribes). The same can be said for most everywhere in the world.

Humans suck. They see something/someplace other people have, want it, and are willing to kill over it.

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:47 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Yeah, now you just have racism towards Muslims.


Damn so we went back to 1200.

“So we’re still in the Middle Ages?”
“Always have been.”
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Kedri
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Postby Kedri » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:10 am

I kinda understand nativism, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Yes, America is a nation of immigrants, but there are some areas of the country where there isn't as much recent immigration, and the ancestors of the current populace immigrated over a century ago. Therefore, they feel little, if any, cultural connection to Europe, and simply see themselves as "American." While they are descended from immigrants, to them, it feels like their families have always lived here.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:06 am

Seangoli wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.


Well, Native Americans constantly displaced one another through violence. We have numerous mass Graves and the like from prehistoric periods, and the historic period is marred by a near endless series of displacements and conflicts, some of which could very easily be viewed as ethnic cleansing on the scale of what Europeans did (I can rattle off a few tribes that were wiped out, or nearly wiped out, quite intentionally by displacing tribes). The same can be said for most everywhere in the world.

Humans suck. They see something/someplace other people have, want it, and are willing to kill over it.

Okay?
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:54 am

Adamede wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Damn so we went back to 1200.

“So we’re still in the Middle Ages?”
“Always have been.”
Gets decapitated by a great sword.


Should go back to the middle ages tbh.

Their music was so much better.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:56 am

Kedri wrote:I kinda understand nativism, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Yes, America is a nation of immigrants, but there are some areas of the country where there isn't as much recent immigration, and the ancestors of the current populace immigrated over a century ago. Therefore, they feel little, if any, cultural connection to Europe, and simply see themselves as "American." While they are descended from immigrants, to them, it feels like their families have always lived here.

Nativism + isolationism on paper seems innocuous.
Nativism + expansionism, meanshile...

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GuessTheAltAccount
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:00 am

Ifreann wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:The white people living in places like Australia or the US really can't go back anywhere at this point. Besides the fact many of them are a mix of European ethnicities and other ethnicities too, there's also the fact that they've lived their whole lives down under or in the land of the free, so i don't see why they should have to move.

XKCD: "It's a bit silly to say that immigrants coming to America should learn English"
OP: "So you're saying that all white people should leave all former colonies?"

I think you're taking the comic a little too literally. I don't think it was meant to refer solely to the language issue so much as use it as a springboard to the more general "your ancestors weren't from here either" theme also seen here. (I suppose I should've included that in the OP, huh?) There are multiple examples of that theme out there, I just happened to pick one that approached it from a language angle. In and of itself, I don't mind that much if someone doesn't speak English; we have translation apps and all; I just think the overall theme rings hollow, especially if, as you presume, they're not actually proposing whites leave a place to which they aren't native. (Which kind of leaves behind the question of what their point is.)
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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:09 am

Diarcesia wrote:
Rusozak wrote:
Not overnight no. But eventually? They're relatively recent concepts born out of nationalism and pseudo-science. I like to think future humans will look on these labels we obsess with organizing everyone under as historical oddities that came and went.

It will take intelligent aliens equally powerful as humans before the latter will look past race, nationality, and ethnicity.

Even with that, I don't think we'd be able to truly unite humanity under one single identity. It would be more akin to the pan-XYZ forms of nationalism like Yugoslavism.
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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:11 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
Magically ? No. Go away in the future ? Probably, yes. Like here in France we used to have "racism" and discrimination against people from some regions (Bretagne, Auvergne, ...) but nowadays it seems unthinkable. With greater travel and communication capabilities, with ever more connected world economy, with common threats like pandemics and climate change in front us, the material forces push towards more unification of the human race, and it'll either happen or we'll die, as a technology advanced race, in our petty fights over skin color, religion and place of birth.


Yeah, now you just have racism towards Muslims.

It's also worth noting that there are still negative attitudes towards people coming from certain regions of France.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:14 am

Tbh I think in the west we're moving back toward the original xenophobia of culture and away from race as a dividing line. Like nowadays people don't really need you to be a different race to dislike you. There's people in Britain who aren't fond of Poles or Romanians despite them being "white" in the UK, and in America there's many people who view Arabs as white and dislike them and many who view them as people of color and accept them. Like I think nowadays, because it isnt cool to be biologically racist, people are moving past "this country should be white and if you aren't white stay out," and moving toward "if you don't fit in our culture, stay out." I know in many European countries prejudice is based around culture and not phenotype, like in Greece or the Balkans or Russia or Sweden (many swedes aren't fond of eastern Europeans, finns or sami).
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:18 am

Immortan Khan wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Yeah, now you just have racism towards Muslims.

It's also worth noting that there are still negative attitudes towards people coming from certain regions of France.


Hey now.

I hold negative attitudes towards people coming from France regardless of the specific region :p
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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:18 am

It's kind of bewildering for people to think that a species that arose from close knit extended families and clans will somehow magically escape this mindset. We can only push back against monkey brain so much.
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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:19 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:It's also worth noting that there are still negative attitudes towards people coming from certain regions of France.


Hey now.

I hold negative attitudes towards people coming from France regardless of the specific region :p

Francophobia is an acceptable xenophobia, carry on good sir.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:21 am

Immortan Khan wrote:It's kind of bewildering for people to think that a species that arose from close knit extended families and clans will somehow magically escape this mindset. We can only push back against monkey brain so much.


You can control irrational thoughts though. Like when I walk in a dark room with no one around, I feel nervous but I logically can tell myself the room isn't haunted.

Then the door slams shut.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:22 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:It's kind of bewildering for people to think that a species that arose from close knit extended families and clans will somehow magically escape this mindset. We can only push back against monkey brain so much.


You can control irrational thoughts though. Like when I walk in a dark room with no one around, I feel nervous but I logically can tell myself the room isn't haunted.

Then the door slams shut.

Having strong loyalty to some social group/tribe isn't irrational though. It makes perfect sense from a communitarian and survival point of view.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:23 am

Immortan Khan wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
You can control irrational thoughts though. Like when I walk in a dark room with no one around, I feel nervous but I logically can tell myself the room isn't haunted.

Then the door slams shut.

Having strong loyalty to some social group/tribe isn't irrational though. It makes perfect sense from a communitarian and survival point of view.


Loyalty to one's people shouldn't translate into hatred of others though. I strongly identify with the town and county I grew up in but I don't look at people from the county over and say "yeah somethings wrong with you. There's something buggsy about you, don't come over the line."
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:25 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Loyalty to one's people shouldn't translate into hatred of others though.
That's not what I was talking about though.
I strongly identify with the town and county I grew up in but I don't look at people from the county over and say "yeah somethings wrong with you. There's something buggsy about you, don't come over the line."
I'm pretty sure there are stereotypes about other counties and towns that are common in your local area, some of which you may very well believe yourself.
Last edited by Immortan Khan on Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:27 am

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Ifreann wrote:XKCD: "It's a bit silly to say that immigrants coming to America should learn English"
OP: "So you're saying that all white people should leave all former colonies?"

I think you're taking the comic a little too literally. I don't think it was meant to refer solely to the language issue so much as use it as a springboard to the more general "your ancestors weren't from here either" theme also seen here. (I suppose I should've included that in the OP, huh?) There are multiple examples of that theme out there, I just happened to pick one that approached it from a language angle. In and of itself, I don't mind that much if someone doesn't speak English; we have translation apps and all; I just think the overall theme rings hollow, especially if, as you presume, they're not actually proposing whites leave a place to which they aren't native. (Which kind of leaves behind the question of what their point is.)

XKCD: "This happened to my friend, pretty funny"
OP: "This is insidious genocide propaganda, this is part of a huge conspiracy to ethnically cleanse America of white people, it can't possibly be anything else"
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:37 am

Immortan Khan wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Loyalty to one's people shouldn't translate into hatred of others though.
That's not what I was talking about though.
I strongly identify with the town and county I grew up in but I don't look at people from the county over and say "yeah somethings wrong with you. There's something buggsy about you, don't come over the line."
I'm pretty sure there are stereotypes about other counties and towns that are common in your local area, some of which you may very well believe yourself.


I mean yeah, there's the stereotype that the county just west of us is richer and flashier than this one, and while there are definitely more wealthy areas there than here there's still poor neighborhoods as well. I think people can learn to broaden their horizon and control the monkey brain at least enough to understand that stereotypes are never 100% accurate.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:56 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:That's not what I was talking about though. I'm pretty sure there are stereotypes about other counties and towns that are common in your local area, some of which you may very well believe yourself.


I mean yeah, there's the stereotype that the county just west of us is richer and flashier than this one, and while there are definitely more wealthy areas there than here there's still poor neighborhoods as well. I think people can learn to broaden their horizon and control the monkey brain at least enough to understand that stereotypes are never 100% accurate.

Right but that doesn't mean those cultural and ethnic identities will go away and there will always be flareups, as unfortunate as that is. We can do our best to mitigate it but to completely eliminate it is I think impossible. Ethnic groups will still continue to arise and come to be. For example there are some arguments now being made that white Southerners have undergone ethnogenesis.
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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:10 pm

Plot twist: The comic is set in England.

Atheris wrote:
Rusozak wrote:Thousands of years in the future

"Research into ancient history shows how early humans of old Earth used to fight each other over appearance and what part of the planet their genetic lineage was originally located. These primitive cultures did not identify with humanity, but actually had ideas of groupings based around what they called 'race' with which they identified."

You say that like race and nationality and ethnicity will magically go away.


Tribalism (as in literal tribes) and city-stateism have already 'magically gone away' in many countries save from football rivalries as we've progressed past that. It's only natural that nations will go the same way. Race would also go since it's just a product of humanity not having fast, cheap inter-continental travel for most of its history.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.

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