Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[The free romanians]

And this dismissal is the kind of nonsense you get from someone blowing smoke up their own hindparts. You try to handwave it away all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a factor. It's not the only factor sure, but it's a factor non the less. Between awkward social relations, heavy work weeks, negative views of marriage in younger generations, and the availability of pornography and legal prostitution, it's fairly obvious why men and women rarely interact.

Roughly half the population doesn't copulate regularly, and 2/5ths of men under 40 are virgins. Men are increasingly more likely to find companionship through alternative means than through dating. Call it whatever you want, but social awkwardness is basically what it is.

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.

Japan isn't a Christian nation, and has pretty casual moods toward sex. It's trends rivaling other western countries is evidence that Christianity is not the cause of declining birthrates, rather other socioeconomic factors are at play.

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

Idk where you got that info but in romania the families seem to do great(in my personal experience)
Also it is not a great gap between the west and east

[Duvniask]

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.


It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

Idk where you got that info but in romania the families seem to do great(in my personal experience)

All the data, whether you look at the CIA World Factbook or reports from the relevant authorities of each country, for example the National Institute of Statistics of Romania (Institutul Național de Statistică), supports the point that total fertility rates are generally speaking lower in Eastern and Southern Europe than in Western and Northern Europe.

Romania is an exception to the overall trend. As for why that specifically is, I would not presume to know.

Also it is not a great gap between the west and east

It is big enough to significantly affect the stability of the population. The gaps between European countries mirror the gaps between East Asian societies and the rest of the developed world overall, which are enough to significantly affect the age makeup of the population and to precipitate population decline.

[Tarsonis]

And this dismissal is the kind of nonsense you get from someone blowing smoke up their own hindparts. You try to handwave it away all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a factor. It's not the only factor sure, but it's a factor non the less. Between awkward social relations, heavy work weeks, negative views of marriage in younger generations, and the availability of pornography and legal prostitution, it's fairly obvious why men and women rarely interact.

Roughly half the population doesn't copulate regularly, and 2/5ths of men under 40 are virgins. Men are increasingly more likely to find companionship through alternative means than through dating. Call it whatever you want, but social awkwardness is basically what it is.

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.

Japan isn't a Christian nation, and has pretty casual moods toward sex. It's trends rivaling other western countries is evidence that Christianity is not the cause of declining birthrates, rather other socioeconomic factors are at play.

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

As I said, handwave it away all you want. The facts are out there for people to find.

[Duvniask]

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.


It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

As I said, handwave it away all you want. The facts are out there for people to find.

lmao

[Tarsonis]

As I said, handwave it away all you want. The facts are out there for people to find.

lmao

You didn't contradict me you, hyperfocused on one point to try and exclude all others. Titter all you want.

[Salus Maior]

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

Christianity is connected to a decline in birthrates because it values family life?

Like what? You have a point that forcing both parents to work is causing a decline in birthrates (as well as the need for higher education putting marriage and family life off to a later point in life) but that's entirely the fault of liberal capitalism and not Christianity, which resisted that development.

Further I would suggest that the low birthrates in southern Europe are due to political instability and poor economy, which I don't think are particularly tied to Christianity but are more due to recent history with wars and political violence as the Red Curtain and Yugoslavia collapsed.

[The free romanians]

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

Christianity is connected to a decline in birthrates because it values family life?

Like what? You have a point that forcing both parents to work is causing a decline in birthrates (as well as the need for higher education putting marriage and family life off to a later point in life) but that's entirely the fault of liberal capitalism and not Christianity, which resisted that development.

Further I would suggest that the low birthrates in southern Europe are due to political instability and poor economy, which I don't think are particularly tied to Christianity but are more due to recent history with wars and political violence as the Red Curtain and Yugoslavia collapsed.

And the ottoman domination which also was painful

[Salus Maior]

And the ottoman domination which also was painful

Well, that's pretty far back at this point. I'd say the fall of communism is the most pertinent reason for southern European problems, even if it was a necessary change. Switching entire economic systems and the open questions about political power aren't recipes for stability.

[Duvniask]

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

Christianity is connected to a decline in birthrates because it values family life?

Like what? You have a point that forcing both parents to work is causing a decline in birthrates (as well as the need for higher education putting marriage and family life off to a later point in life) but that's entirely the fault of liberal capitalism and not Christianity, which resisted that development.

Further I would suggest that the low birthrates in southern Europe are due to political instability and poor economy, which I don't think are particularly tied to Christianity but are more due to recent history with wars and political violence as the Red Curtain and Yugoslavia collapsed.

You're misunderstanding. Most people value family and filial relations, but when I say "familialism" I'm referring to the conservative view that stresses the patriarchal nuclear family unit as ideal and seeks the subjugation of individuals to this norm.

As for why that is, it is because those values have become largely inapplicable in the modern world, to say nothing of the ways in which it subjugates women in positions of inferiority (which is really an aside). The gist of the explanation resides in the fact, and this is supported by much research, that there exists a u-curve type relationship between gender egalitarianism and fertility rates (as well as other phenomena such as divorce rates and marriage itself). At a certain point, traditional norms become a drag on fertility and actively hamper the formation of families. It is only with further advances in women's emancipation, such as more equitable distribution of housework along with policies to benefit parents (of both genders) that one can expect it to reverse - one must note that there is a time dimension to this, as the theory suggests it takes decades for these changes to occur and show results. For more on this I would recommend, for example, Gøsta Esping-Andersen's Families in the 21st Century (2016) or, for a shorter read his co-authored article with Francesco C. Billari, Re-theorizing Family Demographics (2015), which was published in Population and Development Review 41 (1).

As for simply attributing it to capitalism, that is just a cop-out. Norms are sticky, and it is the norms of an earlier epoch coming into conflict with newer circumstances that to help create this dilemma.

While I hope its not necessary to add, but fertility is complicated, and you will never find a single theory to accurately explain the variance one observes across the many different regions of the world. Nevertheless, "gender equity" is one of the more important theoretical frameworks that have recently emerged in the literature.

[Bienenhalde]

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.

Japan isn't a Christian nation, and has pretty casual moods toward sex. It's trends rivaling other western countries is evidence that Christianity is not the cause of declining birthrates, rather other socioeconomic factors are at play.

It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

I have two points I would like to make. Firstly, it is inaccurate to suggest that western and northern Europe are entirely secular, especially in comparison with places that were recently or are currently under communist regimes that supported state atheism. Many Protestant countries in northern Europe still have state churches. On a related note, I think it is incorrect to attribute patriarchal attitudes towards Christianity in general, because attitudes among Christians vary widely depending on denomination and cultural background.
Secondly, you have denied that pornography and prostitution were involved in causing low birth rates because the real problem was patriarchy. But you are deeply mistaken to assume those are mutually exclusive factors. The reality is that the pornography industry and the sex trade have always been deeply patriarchal institutions that have relied on the objectification and commodification of women and their bodies. It should be no surprise that the normalization of such industries in turn normalizes sexist attitudes among the male population. Whereas Japan has permissive laws regarding the sex trade which are poorly enforced and riddled with loopholes, more gender egalitarian countries such as Sweden have effectively reduced prostitution by criminalizing pimps and johns and providing resources to help women who are victims of poverty and trafficking.

[Duvniask]

Nothing of what you said suggests social awkwardness, i.e. lack of social skills and the idea that Japanese men and women don't know how to communicate properly. The availability of pornography and prostitution is not unique to Japan and never has been. Far more prominent explanations are the decline of job security for the young, and the continued prominence of patriarchal gender relations in both the public and private sphere which exert downward pressure on working mothers and fathers. And, as you mention the heavy workload.

The low birth rate is caused by a collapse of the traditional male breadwinner family model, with a lack of institutional re-alignment to make up for this. The collapse in social relations between men and women is tied to the pervasiveness of the old norms - the expectation is still to find women who are (more or less) willing and able to let go of their careers to become housewives, along with finding men who are capable of supporting the family as the primary breadwinner. It is a society of uncertain expectations and norms, maladapted institutions and super heavy exploitation of the workforce. To suggest it comes down to men and women just being socially inept is ridiculous. This social ineptitude, to the extent that it exists, is more of an effect of these other factors, which are ultimately the ones preventing family formation and thus, births.

Many women forego marriage and relationships for the above reasons, because family life would be a burden for them, especially when they are going to be subject to the "double shift" of both working and being a housewife who takes care of the children. And then there are many men who forego marriage because they cannot live up to the standards expected of them either. That is also why, in studies of virginity, it is actually those men with permanent full-time employment that show up as having more sex, whereas men with less income and less connection to the job market are far more likely to be virgins.


It's not as simple. Christianity is connected to a decline in birth rates to the extent that it is tied up with patriarchal and familialist values, which are increasingly inapplicable (and destructive) in our modern society where both parents are required to work and have stable incomes to support a family. It's one the reasons why you find, in Southern and Eastern Europe, despite their seemingly greater religiosity, lower birth rates and a dearth of family formation compared to the less religious and more gender egalitarian societies of Western and Northern Europe.

I have two points I would like to make. Firstly, it is inaccurate to suggest that western and northern Europe are entirely secular, especially in comparison with places that were recently or are currently under communist regimes that supported state atheism.

That's not what I said, and several of those former communist countries are now among the most religious in Europe: Poland, Bosnia, Romania, Moldova, Kosovo, Croatia, Montenegro...

Many Protestant countries in northern Europe still have state churches.

This means nothing. It says nothing about how religious people are, and I can only assume you don't live in this part of Europe. People in my country are members of the church despite never attending services, myself included because I was so from birth and can't be arsed to do the procedure to leave it. Here it's just an antiquated institution that has very little impact on people's lives outside of the traditional ceremonies of marriage, child birth, etc.

If you actually look at polling data, along with simply getting to know a few people from this part of the world, it should be obvious that religion plays very little role in people's lives here.

On a related note, I think it is incorrect to attribute patriarchal attitudes towards Christianity in general, because attitudes among Christians vary widely depending on denomination and cultural background.

I'm not saying they all stem from Christianity, but what I am saying is that the most religious Christians also tend to be the more socially conservative ones, and I certainly get the impression that were you to ask them, they would tell you it's because of their faith and traditions.

Secondly, you have denied that poverty and prostitution were involved in causing low birth rates because the real problem was patriarchy.

I don't think you read my posts properly, because nowhere did I deny poverty being a factor. Its relation to fertility is complex, and I even said poor men in Japan were less likely to have sex, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

But you are deeply mistaken to assume those are mutually exclusive factors. The reality is that the pornography industry and the sex trade have always been deeply patriarchal institutions that have relied on the objectification and commodification of women and their bodies.

Even if it is, so what? Japan is far from the only country in the world with prostitution, lol.

It should be no surprise that the normalization of such industries in turn normalizes sexist attitudes among the male population.

This is nonsense. Prostitution and sexual exploitation has always been common throughout history. So has sexism. Whether or not they influence fertility rates is dwarfed by the fact that more far-reaching changes have been taking place in society, which explain more recent trends in fertility.

Whereas Japan has permissive laws regarding the sex trade which are poorly enforced and riddled with loopholes, more gender egalitarian countries such as Sweden have effectively reduced prostitution by criminalizing pimps and johns and providing resources to help women who are victims of poverty and trafficking.

So what? This is mere cherry picking. You also have more gender egalitarian countries like the Netherlands having legalized prostitution.

[Salus Maior]

Christianity is connected to a decline in birthrates because it values family life?

Like what? You have a point that forcing both parents to work is causing a decline in birthrates (as well as the need for higher education putting marriage and family life off to a later point in life) but that's entirely the fault of liberal capitalism and not Christianity, which resisted that development.

Further I would suggest that the low birthrates in southern Europe are due to political instability and poor economy, which I don't think are particularly tied to Christianity but are more due to recent history with wars and political violence as the Red Curtain and Yugoslavia collapsed.

You're misunderstanding. Most people value family and filial relations, but when I say "familialism" I'm referring to the conservative view that stresses the patriarchal nuclear family unit as ideal and seeks the subjugation of individuals to this norm.

As for why that is, it is because those values have become largely inapplicable in the modern world, to say nothing of the ways in which it subjugates women in positions of inferiority (which is really an aside). The gist of the explanation resides in the fact, and this is supported by much research, that there exists a u-curve type relationship between gender egalitarianism and fertility rates (as well as other phenomena such as divorce rates and marriage itself). At a certain point, traditional norms become a drag on fertility and actively hamper the formation of families. It is only with further advances in women's emancipation, such as more equitable distribution of housework along with policies to benefit parents (of both genders) that one can expect it to reverse - one must note that there is a time dimension to this, as the theory suggests it takes decades for these changes to occur and show results. For more on this I would recommend, for example, Gøsta Esping-Andersen's Families in the 21st Century (2016) or, for a shorter read his co-authored article with Francesco C. Billari, Re-theorizing Family Demographics (2015), which was published in Population and Development Review 41 (1).

As for simply attributing it to capitalism, that is just a cop-out. Norms are sticky, and it is the norms of an earlier epoch coming into conflict with newer circumstances that to help create this dilemma.

While I hope its not necessary to add, but fertility is complicated, and you will never find a single theory to accurately explain the variance one observes across the many different regions of the world. Nevertheless, "gender equity" is one of the more important theoretical frameworks that have recently emerged in the literature.

Hm. Well, I don't really agree with those studies given a lot of traditional families produce a lot more children than more secular/irreligious families from what I've observed but I don't really see any point to continuing to debate this in this thread.

Maybe it could have its own thread? Seems substantial enough.

[Bienenhalde]

Just realized I wrote poverty when I actually meant to write pornography. Although poverty certainly is a factor in driving people into prostitution or the porn industry in the first place.

[Sordhau]

Question: how is one supposed to "honor thy father and thy mother" when one abandoned you before you were even born and the other is highly judgemental and controlling to a toxic degree and constitutes the single biggest source of stress in your life through their constant paranoia and negativity?

I personally seem to recall something about an implied “where reasonable/not abusive/whatever” and in general that they’re acting as good parents to be honored. Don’t remember where that’s from though.

How are we defining a "good parent", though?

[Lord Dominator]

I personally seem to recall something about an implied “where reasonable/not abusive/whatever” and in general that they’re acting as good parents to be honored. Don’t remember where that’s from though.

How are we defining a "good parent", though?

I mean, from the sounds of it what you describe isn’t. Otherwise, idk - shit is subjective in a fallen sinful world from a human perspective.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Traditional families are certainly fruitful (in terms of children), but not everybody wants to be in a traditional family, and in socially conservative societies the alternative to being in a traditional family is having no family at all (which produces, as you might expect, exactly zero children).

I don’t know what the situation is like in European Christendom, but I have lived for quite a while in Confucian East Asia, and I’ve met a few people from South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong who gave up on the idea of children because they like their careers and their social lives which they wouldn’t be able to maintain to nearly the same degree if they found themselves husbands and became housewives.

My understanding is that this attitude has changed significantly in the last few years (for starters, daycare is big business now), but there is still clearly a long way to go - a man is liable to get a lot of strange looks if he announces his intention to stay home and raise the kids while the wife goes off to make money. Something which (I am told - I have far less experience with these societies) is not really true in major Northwestern European cities anymore.

Conservative societies have an expectation that women will stay home to raise the kids and this is something that puts off a lot of women from contemplating the idea of children at all.

I have no hard data to support any of this and this is 100% anecdotal evidence from me having lived in a few very conservative societies. I’m certainly not as well versed in this topic as Duvniask obviously is. But the idea that traditional family values have a negative effect on natality in modern information-era societies does make a lot of sense to me.

[Prima Scriptura]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

[Free Algerstonia]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

"lol"
"you're wrong"
"that's a good argument but your mother"

[Benuty]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

I mean that its practically dead weight is a good enough retort on its own. Though deism hasn't always been the chill option people think it was, Maximilian Robespierre promoted Deism through the Cult of the Supreme Being (worshipping virtue) upon which he "executed" effigies of atheism. Without any ideological rigor, deism is bound to fail in my opinion.

[The Blaatschapen]

Congrats to the vatican on making Titus Brandsma a saint.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Brandsma

A good choice. Well deserving of being honored.

[Luminesa]

Congrats to the vatican on making Titus Brandsma a saint.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Brandsma

A good choice. Well deserving of being honored.

Incredibly brave man with a gut made of steel. Glad to see him getting the recognition he needs and deserves as well.

[New Visayan Islands]

Congrats to the vatican on making Titus Brandsma a saint.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Brandsma

A good choice. Well deserving of being honored.

Incredibly brave man with a gut made of steel. Glad to see him getting the recognition he needs and deserves as well.

That makes, what, three Martyr-Saints of the Holocaust after Edith Stein and Maximilian Kolbe?

[Suriyanakhon]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

I mean that its practically dead weight is a good enough retort on its own. Though deism hasn't always been the chill option people think it was, Maximilian Robespierre promoted Deism through the Cult of the Supreme Being (worshipping virtue) upon which he "executed" effigies of atheism. Without any ideological rigor, deism is bound to fail in my opinion.

That's extremely based though.

[Lower Nubia]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

Jesus is the antithesis of Deism.

[Sundiata]

Is there any good retorts to Christian deism?

Christ was involved in human affairs because he loves humanity and he is God.