Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Tarsonis]

People's frustration with the church's response to the recent revelations over residential schools in Canada is perfectly understandable, but it's regrettable that anyone would resort to actions like this that primarily harm lay Catholics within their own communities. From the article it doesn't sound like the fire being reported has been confirmed to be intentional yet, but in light of the other arson attacks on churches in recent days it seems quite likely.

I mean, in like a few weeks 8 parishes have been set on fire throughout Canada so I think it's pretty obvious that it's arson.

Yes. But I'm kinda with OT on this one. As much as it angers me, I'm biting my tongue on this given the current revelations. It's reprehensible, but at the same time I understand the blind anger that's causing it.

[Salus Maior]

I mean, in like a few weeks 8 parishes have been set on fire throughout Canada so I think it's pretty obvious that it's arson.

Yes. But I'm kinda with OT on this one. As much as it angers me, I'm biting my tongue on this given the current revelations. It's reprehensible, but at the same time I understand the blind anger that's causing it.

It doesn't make it any less of a hate crime to target Catholics for something that happened decades ago, and likely didn't involve any of these parishes.

[Old Tyrannia]

People's frustration with the church's response to the recent revelations over residential schools in Canada is perfectly understandable, but it's regrettable that anyone would resort to actions like this that primarily harm lay Catholics within their own communities. From the article it doesn't sound like the fire being reported has been confirmed to be intentional yet, but in light of the other arson attacks on churches in recent days it seems quite likely.

I mean, in like a few weeks 8 parishes have been set on fire throughout Canada so I think it's pretty obvious that it's arson.

That's certainly a reasonable assumption, and personally I don't doubt that it was a deliberate act of arson. I was only pointing out that it hasn't technically been confirmed as arson by the legal authorities yet. I apologise if by being over-cautious in explicitly calling it arson I gave the impression that I'm trying to play down or minimise the anti-Catholic and anticlerical nature of this spate of attacks, I assure you that was the opposite of my intentions with that last post.

[Tarsonis]

Yes. But I'm kinda with OT on this one. As much as it angers me, I'm biting my tongue on this given the current revelations. It's reprehensible, but at the same time I understand the blind anger that's causing it.

It doesn't make it any less of a hate crime to target Catholics for something that happened decades ago, and likely didn't involve any of these parishes.

But it does make it more of a crime of passion rather a deep seated, calculated attack on the community. Like I said, it's reprehensible, but given the current revelations, I understand the rage. Praying for community healing and extending forgiveness is the proper course of action here i feel.

[Salus Maior]

It doesn't make it any less of a hate crime to target Catholics for something that happened decades ago, and likely didn't involve any of these parishes.

But it does make it more of a crime of passion rather a deep seated, calculated attack on the community.

You don't know that.

Further, it possibly being a crime of passion doesn't make it any better. Some of the worst crimes imaginable have been crimes of passion.

I.E, lynching, pogroms, etc.

[Tarsonis]

But it does make it more of a crime of passion rather a deep seated, calculated attack on the community.

You don't know that.

Further, it possibly being a crime of passion doesn't make it any better. Some of the worst crimes imaginable have been crimes of passion.

I.E, lynching, pogroms, etc.

Indeed. But this wasn't that. It could have been dangerous, it could have resulted in deaths sure. But it didn't.

Remember:

22 “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.

[Salus Maior]

You don't know that.

Further, it possibly being a crime of passion doesn't make it any better. Some of the worst crimes imaginable have been crimes of passion.

I.E, lynching, pogroms, etc.

Indeed. But this wasn't that. It could have been dangerous, it could have resulted in deaths sure. But it didn't.

Remember:

22 “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.

I don't really see how that verse is related to the issue.

[Tarsonis]

Indeed. But this wasn't that. It could have been dangerous, it could have resulted in deaths sure. But it didn't.

Remember:

22 “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.

I don't really see how that verse is related to the issue.

Blessed are you when people hate and persecute your? seems pretty obvious from where I'm sitting.

[Lower Nubia]

Yes. But I'm kinda with OT on this one. As much as it angers me, I'm biting my tongue on this given the current revelations. It's reprehensible, but at the same time I understand the blind anger that's causing it.

It doesn't make it any less of a hate crime to target Catholics for something that happened decades ago, and likely didn't involve any of these parishes.

To be more specific, just 2 decades ago. The last residential school closed in 1996, and the perpetrators of the crimes in the previous decades are still alive. This is similar to the civil rights act, which was only in 1964, in that the people who were against it are still alive, and still vote.

Sure, those parishes did not. That doesn’t mean all those alive today, are seemingly innocent.

[Salus Maior]

It doesn't make it any less of a hate crime to target Catholics for something that happened decades ago, and likely didn't involve any of these parishes.

To be more specific, just 2 decades ago. The last residential school closed in 1996, and the perpetrators of the crimes in the previous decades are still alive. This is similar to the civil rights act, which was only in 1964, in that the people who were against it are still alive, and still vote.

Sure, those parishes did not. That doesn’t mean all those alive today, are seemingly innocent.

By 1996, iirc, most if not all of the residential schools were run by the First Nations themselves, as ownership was transferred over.

And yes, I imagine a good deal of the perpetrators are still alive. And I'm all for prosecuting them.

[Immortan Khan]

The arson attacks are wrong, that much is true. It doesn't help that certain people also will try to use them and this issue as cudgels against Catholicism and Christianity in general. But as Tars said, these are likely crimes of passion and ones in which no one, thankfully, was hurt. It hurts to see it and I would be pained if it happened to an Orthodox Church. However, I recognize it's caused by an even greater pain and crime; it does not help either that the Roman Catholic Church is the sole holdout at this point on issuing a formal apology and also for not paying what it was supposed to pay in reparations. It doesn't justify these arsons. It does however explain them and I think given the context of what has caused them, we should acknowledge while it's wrong, they should definitely not be the focus and that our anger and sorrow should be aimed towards what happened at these residential schools.

[Salus Maior]

The arson attacks are wrong, that much is true. It doesn't help that certain people also will try to use them and this issue as cudgels against Catholicism and Christianity in general. But as Tars said, these are likely crimes of passion and ones in which no one, thankfully, was hurt. It hurts to see it and I would be pained if it happened to an Orthodox Church. However, I recognize it's caused by an even greater pain and crime; it does not help either that the Roman Catholic Church is the sole holdout at this point on issuing a formal apology and also for not paying what it was supposed to pay in reparations. It doesn't justify these arsons. It does however explain them and I think given the context of what has caused them, we should acknowledge while its wrong they should definitely not be the focus and that our anger and sorrow should be aimed towards what happened at these residential schools.

I mean, 8 churches across all of Canada doesn't come off to me as simply a crime of passion.

[Punished UMN]

The arson attacks are wrong, that much is true. It doesn't help that certain people also will try to use them and this issue as cudgels against Catholicism and Christianity in general. But as Tars said, these are likely crimes of passion and ones in which no one, thankfully, was hurt. It hurts to see it and I would be pained if it happened to an Orthodox Church. However, I recognize it's caused by an even greater pain and crime; it does not help either that the Roman Catholic Church is the sole holdout at this point on issuing a formal apology and also for not paying what it was supposed to pay in reparations. It doesn't justify these arsons. It does however explain them and I think given the context of what has caused them, we should acknowledge while its wrong they should definitely not be the focus and that our anger and sorrow should be aimed towards what happened at these residential schools.

I mean, 8 churches across all of Canada doesn't come off to me as simply a crime of passion.

Most of them are probably motivated by the same thing, but are copycat arsons.

[Immortan Khan]

The arson attacks are wrong, that much is true. It doesn't help that certain people also will try to use them and this issue as cudgels against Catholicism and Christianity in general. But as Tars said, these are likely crimes of passion and ones in which no one, thankfully, was hurt. It hurts to see it and I would be pained if it happened to an Orthodox Church. However, I recognize it's caused by an even greater pain and crime; it does not help either that the Roman Catholic Church is the sole holdout at this point on issuing a formal apology and also for not paying what it was supposed to pay in reparations. It doesn't justify these arsons. It does however explain them and I think given the context of what has caused them, we should acknowledge while its wrong they should definitely not be the focus and that our anger and sorrow should be aimed towards what happened at these residential schools.

I mean, 8 churches across all of Canada doesn't come off to me as simply a crime of passion.

Because we're dealing with a pain being felt that spreads across millions of people from coast to coast.

[Lower Nubia]

To be more specific, just 2 decades ago. The last residential school closed in 1996, and the perpetrators of the crimes in the previous decades are still alive. This is similar to the civil rights act, which was only in 1964, in that the people who were against it are still alive, and still vote.

Sure, those parishes did not. That doesn’t mean all those alive today, are seemingly innocent.

By 1996, iirc, most if not all of the residential schools were run by the First Nations themselves, as ownership was transferred over.

And yes, I imagine a good deal of the perpetrators are still alive. And I'm all for prosecuting them.

The schools existing at all, regardless of ownership was a stain, which inevitably was why they closed. However, this isn’t a tragedy where we read about the people involved, ‘you’ likely know, and have spoken to, the person involved. The Church should be offering total transparency, where possible, in finding those responsible, as a means of asking forgiveness, and ending this sorry chapter.

[Muzehnaya]

So, I recently read this article in an attempt to better understand the concept of the Trinity. I'm still somewhat confused, but as far as I can tell, the idea of it is that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all incarnations of the same God, and they all exist simultaneously. Would that be the correct understanding according to mainstream Christian thought?

[Old Tyrannia]

So, I recently read this article in an attempt to better understand the concept of the Trinity. I'm still somewhat confused, but as far as I can tell, the idea of it is that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all incarnations of the same God, and they all exist simultaneously. Would that be the correct understanding according to mainstream Christian thought?

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

[Dowaesk]

So, I recently read this article in an attempt to better understand the concept of the Trinity. I'm still somewhat confused, but as far as I can tell, the idea of it is that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all incarnations of the same God, and they all exist simultaneously. Would that be the correct understanding according to mainstream Christian thought?

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

Thats basically like one God but three forms right? Or is it like 3 Gods forming from one God?

[Genivaria]

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

Thats basically like one God but three forms right? Or is it like 3 Gods forming from one God?

I've always understood it as 3 different 'aspects' of one being, at least when I was a Christian.

[Salus Maior]

By 1996, iirc, most if not all of the residential schools were run by the First Nations themselves, as ownership was transferred over.

And yes, I imagine a good deal of the perpetrators are still alive. And I'm all for prosecuting them.

The schools existing at all, regardless of ownership was a stain, which inevitably was why they closed. However, this isn’t a tragedy where we read about the people involved, ‘you’ likely know, and have spoken to, the person involved. The Church should be offering total transparency, where possible, in finding those responsible, as a means of asking forgiveness, and ending this sorry chapter.

I'm not saying that they're not a stain, and I agree that the Church should do everything in its power to do the right thing.

[Salus Maior]

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

Thats basically like one God but three forms right? Or is it like 3 Gods forming from one God?

God in Three Persons, of one substance and inseparable from each other.

[Old Tyrannia]

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

Thats basically like one God but three forms right? Or is it like 3 Gods forming from one God?

"One God in three persons" is the classical form used in English. The three persons of the trinity (hypostases in Greek) are to be understood as neither different manifestations of the same person, nor separate but linked entities, nor different "parts" of the same God. They are all equally and fully God, and are of one substance or essence (homoousios).

[Muzehnaya]

So, I recently read this article in an attempt to better understand the concept of the Trinity. I'm still somewhat confused, but as far as I can tell, the idea of it is that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all incarnations of the same God, and they all exist simultaneously. Would that be the correct understanding according to mainstream Christian thought?

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

So each of them are actually God itself, but they represent God in different forms, which all simultaneously exist with one another?

[Old Tyrannia]

The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

So each of them are actually God itself, but they represent God in different forms, which all simultaneously exist with one another?

That's more or less the case, though I generally recommend sticking to the commonly used terminology with regards to the trinity as the nuances of language can lead to misunderstandings when one attempts to convey the doctrine in different words. One problem we have as Christians is that much of our theology was initially defined and formally promulgated in the Greek language, using terms whose precise meanings lack direct English equivalents, meaning that some of the nuances of things like trinitarian and Christological theology are somewhat lost in translation.

[Fatimida]

That's more or less the case, though I generally recommend sticking to the commonly used terminology with regards to the trinity as the nuances of language can lead to misunderstandings when one attempts to convey the doctrine in different words. One problem we have as Christians is that much of our theology was initially defined and formally promulgated in the Greek language, using terms whose precise meanings lack direct English equivalents, meaning that some of the nuances of things like trinitarian and Christological theology are somewhat lost in translation.

How is it possible (and why is it necessary) for God to exist in three different forms?
Also, why would God allow His word to be corrupted by human language?
"It's a mystery none of us can understand" is not an refutation to either, no offense intended