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Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
256
34%
Eastern Orthodox
66
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
75
10%
Anglican/Episcopalian
40
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
72
9%
Methodist
18
2%
Baptist
60
8%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
50
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
31
4%
Other Christian
96
13%
 
Total votes : 764

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:07 am

Tarsonis wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Indeed. The Remnant is also recognized as a hate group by SPLC. On a side note, the Church can bring more non-reactionary Catholics to the extraordinary form by authorizing it that it can be said in the vernacular.


eh, the SPLC can bite me. I mean in the 60s yeah great, but modernly they're basically a partisan organization that slanders even the slightest opposition to progressive agenda as a hate group.

You're reminding me why I fear for the Jesuits. I think they've lost a lot of influence in the church and the world. We've got a Jesuit Pope, sure. Still, they walk the line between being 'men for others' and men of the world. I'm going to be surprised if we get another Jesuit as Pope after Pope Francis. While I pray for Pope Francis, I'm not looking forward to the idea of another Jesuit pope.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:10 am

Kowani wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:That moment when Kowani the atheist(?)
yes
shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

i mean
i'm not an anti-theist, i don't harbour any hate towards the vatican
and while i do have criticisms, i do my best to make sure they're grounded in things that actually happened
the harder traditionalists have a movement to mobilize, and since they feel like they're fighting a war, more things become permissible
the liturgy, the language of the mass (actually those might be the same thing i don't know terminology), etc
they're all about values
or
hm
the emphasis and focus placed on what form they take is a subtext for values and power
hence why you can be a more traditionalist catholic without being a reactionary
case in point, Lumi

Honestly, I was mostly trying to make a joke about that minority of Catholics apparently being more opposed to their own church than anyone else - I may have missed the mark a tad on that :p

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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:14 am

Sundiata wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
eh, the SPLC can bite me. I mean in the 60s yeah great, but modernly they're basically a partisan organization that slanders even the slightest opposition to progressive agenda as a hate group.

You're reminding me why I fear for the Jesuits. I think they've lost a lot of influence in the church and the world. We've got a Jesuit Pope, sure. Still, they walk the line between being 'men for others' and men of the world. I'm going to be surprised if we get another Jesuit as Pope after Pope Francis. While I pray for Pope Francis, I'm not looking forward to the idea of another Jesuit pope.

The Jesuits continue to be all over various college departments and write a huge breadth of theological literature and media. Sure, every order at some point is in need of organizational and spiritual reform, but...as far as being concerned for their influence, the Jesuits are probably not the order to have concern for.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Kowani wrote: yes

i mean
i'm not an anti-theist, i don't harbour any hate towards the vatican
and while i do have criticisms, i do my best to make sure they're grounded in things that actually happened
the harder traditionalists have a movement to mobilize, and since they feel like they're fighting a war, more things become permissible
the liturgy, the language of the mass (actually those might be the same thing i don't know terminology), etc
they're all about values
or
hm
the emphasis and focus placed on what form they take is a subtext for values and power
hence why you can be a more traditionalist catholic without being a reactionary
case in point, Lumi

Honestly, I was mostly trying to make a joke about that minority of Catholics apparently being more opposed to their own church than anyone else - I may have missed the mark a tad on that :p
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Sundiata
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Founded: Sep 27, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:30 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Kowani wrote: yes

i mean
i'm not an anti-theist, i don't harbour any hate towards the vatican
and while i do have criticisms, i do my best to make sure they're grounded in things that actually happened
the harder traditionalists have a movement to mobilize, and since they feel like they're fighting a war, more things become permissible
the liturgy, the language of the mass (actually those might be the same thing i don't know terminology), etc
they're all about values
or
hm
the emphasis and focus placed on what form they take is a subtext for values and power
hence why you can be a more traditionalist catholic without being a reactionary
case in point, Lumi

Honestly, I was mostly trying to make a joke about that minority of Catholics apparently being more opposed to their own church than anyone else - I may have missed the mark a tad on that :p

Many Catholics are just tired of the lukewarmness that has permeated the culture, the church, and many of our hearts. I was critical of the Jesuits earlier but it doesn't stop with them. Because we're so weak, it's not surprising that the world falls short of God's glory. It's why we have to treat others with as much charity as we can muster.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundiata
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Founded: Sep 27, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:41 am

Luminesa wrote:
Sundiata wrote:You're reminding me why I fear for the Jesuits. I think they've lost a lot of influence in the church and the world. We've got a Jesuit Pope, sure. Still, they walk the line between being 'men for others' and men of the world. I'm going to be surprised if we get another Jesuit as Pope after Pope Francis. While I pray for Pope Francis, I'm not looking forward to the idea of another Jesuit pope.

The Jesuits continue to be all over various college departments and write a huge breadth of theological literature and media. Sure, every order at some point is in need of organizational and spiritual reform, but...as far as being concerned for their influence, the Jesuits are probably not the order to have concern for.

I see what you mean. They're widespread but my doubt is because of my experience with their catechesis. Not to repeat myself, but I feel that the Jesuits tend to forget that culture is a means and not an end. I think that the Jesuits are having a really difficult time in striving for and possessing the culture. To me, that's going to take professional excellence of a specific kind which emphasises the laity.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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Australian rePublic
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:43 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
By having a lot of money.

Having a congregation to go with it is also useful

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Benuty
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:41 am

Being real for a moment here, what's the point of subscribing to the deicide theory? I mean without Christ's death, and following the resurrection, Christianity becomes misguided at best or idolatry at worst (according to orthodox Jews it is). I subscribe to Christus Victor theory, which asserts death and resurrection as the victory over evil, sin, and death.
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Lady Victory
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Founded: Apr 27, 2021
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Postby Lady Victory » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:19 am

Sundiata wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Honestly, I was mostly trying to make a joke about that minority of Catholics apparently being more opposed to their own church than anyone else - I may have missed the mark a tad on that :p

Many Catholics are just tired of the lukewarmness that has permeated the culture, the church, and many of our hearts. I was critical of the Jesuits earlier but it doesn't stop with them. Because we're so weak, it's not surprising that the world falls short of God's glory. It's why we have to treat others with as much charity as we can muster.


Tolerance and respect are not weaknesses.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:52 am

Lady Victory wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Many Catholics are just tired of the lukewarmness that has permeated the culture, the church, and many of our hearts. I was critical of the Jesuits earlier but it doesn't stop with them. Because we're so weak, it's not surprising that the world falls short of God's glory. It's why we have to treat others with as much charity as we can muster.


Tolerance and respect are not weaknesses.


No, but the Gathering Hymnal is : P
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:54 am

Benuty wrote:Being real for a moment here, what's the point of subscribing to the deicide theory? I mean without Christ's death, and following the resurrection, Christianity becomes misguided at best or idolatry at worst (according to orthodox Jews it is). I subscribe to Christus Victor theory, which asserts death and resurrection as the victory over evil, sin, and death.


Indeed. I mean, Christ died because of the sins of all humanity, not just because the Jews wanted Pilate to execute Him. I think it's obvious that both Jew and Gentile are implicated in the tragedy of Christ's crucifixion, one asking for it and the other doing it.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:16 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Benuty wrote:Being real for a moment here, what's the point of subscribing to the deicide theory? I mean without Christ's death, and following the resurrection, Christianity becomes misguided at best or idolatry at worst (according to orthodox Jews it is). I subscribe to Christus Victor theory, which asserts death and resurrection as the victory over evil, sin, and death.


Indeed. I mean, Christ died because of the sins of all humanity, not just because the Jews wanted Pilate to execute Him. I think it's obvious that both Jew and Gentile are implicated in the tragedy of Christ's crucifixion, one asking for it and the other doing it.


Do you subscribe to Jewish deicide?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:23 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Indeed. I mean, Christ died because of the sins of all humanity, not just because the Jews wanted Pilate to execute Him. I think it's obvious that both Jew and Gentile are implicated in the tragedy of Christ's crucifixion, one asking for it and the other doing it.


Do you subscribe to Jewish deicide?


we subscribe to human deicide. we all killed him, as surely as if we'd hammered the nails in ourselves.
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:24 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Do you subscribe to Jewish deicide?


we subscribe to human deicide. we all killed him, as surely as if we'd hammered the nails in ourselves.


Then the answer is no. I’m just asking because when I was a rad trad, I subscribed to the Jewish decide belief…
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:27 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Do you subscribe to Jewish deicide?


we subscribe to human deicide. we all killed him, as surely as if we'd hammered the nails in ourselves.


This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:30 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Indeed. I mean, Christ died because of the sins of all humanity, not just because the Jews wanted Pilate to execute Him. I think it's obvious that both Jew and Gentile are implicated in the tragedy of Christ's crucifixion, one asking for it and the other doing it.


Do you subscribe to Jewish deicide?


No.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:31 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
we subscribe to human deicide. we all killed him, as surely as if we'd hammered the nails in ourselves.


This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?


Because the reason behind Christ dying was the sinfulness of all humanity. In the past, present, and future.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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New Visayan Islands
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:34 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?


Because the reason behind Christ dying was the sinfulness of all humanity. In the past, present, and future.

IOW: Christ, though His Passion and Death, took away the sins of Humanity as a whole. Did I get that right?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:34 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
we subscribe to human deicide. we all killed him, as surely as if we'd hammered the nails in ourselves.


This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?


Christ died not for the people of 1st century AD Judea, but for all people for all times.
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:39 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?


Because the reason behind Christ dying was the sinfulness of all humanity. In the past, present, and future.


What are some good Catholic based retorts to Calvinism and limited atonement?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:49 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Because the reason behind Christ dying was the sinfulness of all humanity. In the past, present, and future.


What are some good Catholic based retorts to Calvinism and limited atonement?


His mother was a hamster, and his father smelled of elderberries.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:55 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
What are some good Catholic based retorts to Calvinism and limited atonement?


His mother was a hamster, and his father smelled of elderberries.


I don’t get it.
I’m a Wesleyan Christian center-left American Patriot. 29 year-old male and I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, neoconservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, LGBTQIA rights, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:14 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Because the reason behind Christ dying was the sinfulness of all humanity. In the past, present, and future.


What are some good Catholic based retorts to Calvinism and limited atonement?


John 3:16.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Suriyanakhon
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Suriyanakhon » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:32 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
His mother was a hamster, and his father smelled of elderberries.


I don’t get it.


Monty Python reference.
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Suriyanakhon
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Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Suriyanakhon » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:36 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
This kind of confuses me, why did all of humanity do it and not just the specific people of 1st century CE Judea?


Christ died not for the people of 1st century AD Judea, but for all people for all times.


Yes, but none of us were alive back then. Holding us all responsible for Christ's death would be untrue.
Resident Drowned Victorian Waif & Theravada Buddhist
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