Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Salus Maior]

Christ died not for the people of 1st century AD Judea, but for all people for all times.

Yeah, but even if he died for me. I didn't nail him.

And I would have spoken out against his execution if I had been able to.

Sure, and I’m sure you would have spoken out against slavery in America and Nazism in Germany too.

The truth is, most of what we are is determined by the context of our environment. I’m sure if you, as you are now, were somehow transplanted in that time somehow you might be right. But if you lived in that context there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have gone along with whatever everyone else was doing. Whether that’s seeing Jesus as innocent or Jews as people. Maybe you would’ve been the few that did, but maybe not. We can’t say because you’ve never been in that context.

But considering even Christ’s closest friends abandoned Him and denied knowing Him, I’m not confident of your chances.

[Neanderthaland]

Yeah, but even if he died for me. I didn't nail him.

And I would have spoken out against his execution if I had been able to.

Sure, and I’m sure you would have spoken out against slavery in America and Nazism in Germany too.

The truth is, most of what we are is determined by the context of our environment. I’m sure if you, as you are now, we’re transplanted in that time somehow you might be right. But if you lived in that context there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have gone along with whatever everyone else was doing. Whether that’s seeing Jesus as innocent or Jews as people. Maybe you would’ve been the few that did, but maybe not. We can’t say because you’ve never been in that context.

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

[Salus Maior]

Sure, and I’m sure you would have spoken out against slavery in America and Nazism in Germany too.

The truth is, most of what we are is determined by the context of our environment. I’m sure if you, as you are now, we’re transplanted in that time somehow you might be right. But if you lived in that context there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have gone along with whatever everyone else was doing. Whether that’s seeing Jesus as innocent or Jews as people. Maybe you would’ve been the few that did, but maybe not. We can’t say because you’ve never been in that context.

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

I’m more arguing about your point of ‘if I were there I would have spoken up’. There’s no knowing what you would have done in that situation, even as you are. Because you’ve never been in that sort of situation. I mean, would you honestly contradict a murderous crowd to their face?

Nobody can really say what they would do in any kind of historical moment like that until they’re in it. Which is why it’s frustrating to hear all these sorts of normal everyday people say ‘I would have resisted the Nazis’ or whatever when normal everyday people like them didn’t. Words are cheap I guess is my point. Although that’s a bit of a divergence from the topic.

[Sundiata]

Bro, I don't even know what the five solas are. And... I guess I just... did?

The five solae are: Sola Fide (by faith alone), Sola Scriptura (by Scripture alone), Sola Gratia (by grace alone), Solus Christus (through Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

Sola Scriptura teaches that Scripture should govern the Church and that traditions and interpretations are below Scripture. Sola Scriptura asserts that the Bible can and is to be interpreted through itself, with one area of Scripture being useful for interpreting others

Sola Fide asserts that good works are not a means or requisite for salvation. Sola fide is the teaching that justification (interpreted in the Lutheran and Reformed theologies as "being declared just by God") is received by faith alone, without any need for good works on the part of the individual. In classical Lutheran and Reformed theologies, good works are seen to be evidence of saving faith, but the good works themselves do not determine salvation.

Sola Gratia specifically excludes the merit done by a person as part of achieving salvation. Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by divine grace or "unmerited favor" only, not as something merited by the sinner. This means that salvation is an unearned gift from God for Jesus's sake.

Solus Christus excludes the priestly class as necessary for sacraments. Solus Christus is the teaching that Christ is the only mediator between God and man, and that there is salvation through no other.

Soli Deo Gloria stands in opposition to the veneration perceived by many to be present in the Roman Catholic Church of Mary the mother of Jesus, the saints, or angels. Soli Deo gloria is the teaching that all glory is to be due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through his will and action – not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit. The reformers believed that human beings – even saints canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, the popes, and the ecclesiastical hierarchy – are not worthy of the glory that was accorded them; that is, one should not exalt such humans for their good works, but rather praise and give glory to God who is the author and sanctifier of these people and their good works.

Thank you.

[Sundiata]

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

I’m more arguing about your point of ‘if I were there I would have spoken up’. There’s no knowing what you would have done in that situation, even as you are. Because you’ve never been in that sort of situation. I mean, would you honestly contradict a murderous crowd to their face?

Nobody can really say what they would do in any kind of historical moment like that until they’re in it. Which is why it’s frustrating to hear all these sorts of normal everyday people say ‘I would have resisted the Nazis’ or whatever when normal everyday people like them didn’t. Words are cheap I guess is my point. Although that’s a bit of a divergence from the topic.

Exactly, Christ passes us by every single day in the form of those who are the least of us. What do we do? Hardly much, we watch them suffer in agony. Our love is too selfish, too short. It's why for most of us, including myself at times, the mass is too long.

It's awful, we leave people to starve, suffer, and die all of the time, people who are made in the image of God. How am I supposed to be trusted to recognize God, to love God, when all of the time I close my heart to those made in his image?

"Do you pay such honor to your excrements as to receive them into a silver chamber-pot when another man made in the image of God is perishing in the cold?"
-St John Chrysostom

[Luminesa]

Rather, Sheol is a place of rest and of wandering for souls. It’s...dreary, but not a place of burning fire. St. Joseph, the prophets, and the virtuous pagans all hung here until Jesus opened the doors. That means most of those people are probably in Heaven.

How is Sheol not a lesser degree of hell?

Sheol and Gehenna (our idea of Hell) are two different concepts.

[Albrenia]

Sure, and I’m sure you would have spoken out against slavery in America and Nazism in Germany too.

The truth is, most of what we are is determined by the context of our environment. I’m sure if you, as you are now, we’re transplanted in that time somehow you might be right. But if you lived in that context there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have gone along with whatever everyone else was doing. Whether that’s seeing Jesus as innocent or Jews as people. Maybe you would’ve been the few that did, but maybe not. We can’t say because you’ve never been in that context.

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

I also have a lot of trouble with the whole 'all are guilty of this sin' sort of thing. I cannot accept a judgement as being fair if it is for a deed I had no part in. Not to say I am somehow 'innocent' by Christian standards, I'm sure I've sinned quite enough as is, but I'll not atone for a crime I did not commit.

Maybe I would have cheered the execution of Christ, or maybe I would have stood against it. Either way it is deeply unfair to pass judgement on an individual for the crime of a collective they were not part of.

Not coming to this thread to be confrontational, mind, as there's lots about the various flavours of Christianity I find extremely positive.

[Salus Maior]

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

I also have a lot of trouble with the whole 'all are guilty of this sin' sort of thing. I cannot accept a judgement as being fair if it is for a deed I had no part in. Not to say I am somehow 'innocent' by Christian standards, I'm sure I've sinned quite enough as is, but I'll not atone for a crime I did not commit.

Maybe I would have cheered the execution of Christ, or maybe I would have stood against it. Either way it is deeply unfair to pass judgement on an individual for the crime of a collective they were not part of.

Not coming to this thread to be confrontational, mind, as there's lots about the various flavours of Christianity I find extremely positive.

Humanity is guilty for putting Christ on the cross because it's the sinfulness of humanity as a whole which led to it, and made it necessary. Sinfulness makes everyone complicit.

The concept of complicity without direct involvement is something we all understand. If you keep buying Nestle products despite the knowledge that they take advantage of slave labor, you're complicit in the propagation of slavery. If you buy land that once belonged to a group that was ethnically cleansed or exterminated, there's complicity. If you're a Swiss banker that stores Nazi gold, most of which was seized from Jews who were murdered, there's complicity.

Granted, in this case the atonement for our complicity in Christ's death is to simply "go and sin no more". Because that's why He submitted Himself to be crucified, so that we can be reconciled with God.

[Tarsonis]

How is Sheol not a lesser degree of hell?

Sheol and Gehenna (our idea of Hell) are two different concepts.

Not exactly.

[Luminesa]

So I'm guilty of deicide because... transplanted into the correct societal environment, mind wiped of all that I am, and in my place what is an essentially different person, with unknown knowledge and experience - under those conditions, I might have been okay with crucifixion. And that possibility is the same thing as guilt.

I also have a lot of trouble with the whole 'all are guilty of this sin' sort of thing. I cannot accept a judgement as being fair if it is for a deed I had no part in. Not to say I am somehow 'innocent' by Christian standards, I'm sure I've sinned quite enough as is, but I'll not atone for a crime I did not commit.

Maybe I would have cheered the execution of Christ, or maybe I would have stood against it. Either way it is deeply unfair to pass judgement on an individual for the crime of a collective they were not part of.

Not coming to this thread to be confrontational, mind, as there's lots about the various flavours of Christianity I find extremely positive.

It’s hard to explain, but it’s not necessarily saying you are evil or anything. Rather, we are all broken individuals who live in a broken world. Original sin doesn’t require that you have done anything, or that I have done anything. Shoot, when we read the Passion on Palm Sunday, I always cringe at the, “Crucifiy Him!” lines of the Gospel reading. But original sin was a state of being, not anything we necessarily did. It’s kinda like a gene passed down through the family. Unfortunately, many people carry genes which cause things like Alzheimer’s or cancer. Original sin works in a similar manner.

You’re not coming across as confrontational, it’s okay to suggest your thoughts on the matter.

[Tarsonis]

Yeah, but even if he died for me. I didn't nail him.

And I would have spoken out against his execution if I had been able to.

This. I really doubt I'd have wanted to brutally execute some poor guy for essentially nothing, and the idea that I should feel some sense of collective responsibility for it is... just weird to me.

Okay so from what I can gather I think it has less to do with what you, personally, would have done in that situation so much as would you, collectively, were capable of. With knowledge of good and evil comes the ability to choose between good and evil, and as original sin involved early Man obtaining knowledge of good and evil the crucifixion was naturally a result of this. Without knowledge of good and evil Jesus would not have been condemned as His death (or even birth, for that matter) would not have been necessary. It was the ability of Men to consciously choose evil that led to Christ's crucifixion, and thus Mankind as a whole is responsible for having fallen so far from God's grace that they could obtain knowledge of good and evil; and thus have the ability to choose evil actions. It's not that you, personally, are responsible for much as humanity, collectively, is responsible. The human species as a whole--irregardless of the individuals that make up our species--is responsible as our fall from grace was largely our own doing even if we were initially deceived.

I think that's what they're trying to say, anyway. That's the impression I got. Maybe I'm understanding this wrong, please correct me if I am.

I missed this post, but THIS more or less hits the nail square on the head.

[North Washington Republic]

What are some good resources defending the trinity and retorts claims from non-trinitarian Christians that the trinity is a pagan concept and isn’t monotheistic?

[Tarsonis]

What are some good resources defending the trinity and retorts claims from non-trinitarian Christians that the trinity is a pagan concept and isn’t monotheistic?

Carve the word Chalcedon onto their pyre.





I kid, but there's not really a good simple retort. Trinitarian theology is complex, not expressly laid out in scripture, and took several centuries to be fully fleshed out. The best I can give you is John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

They might give you some rebuttal based on a poor comprehension of Koine Greek, but :shrug:

[Luminesa]

What are some good resources defending the trinity and retorts claims from non-trinitarian Christians that the trinity is a pagan concept and isn’t monotheistic?

Hmmmm...that's an odd retort, but I guess nothing is too out-there in terms of debate. Let's see...

I hope you don't mind me sharing Catholic resources, but Catholic Answers tends to give good summaries on Trinitarian theology:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... he-trinity

Because last week was the Feast of the Holy Trinity, Bishop Robert Barron gave an excellent homily on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqjFe3AoZYw (Trinity Sunday homily.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw (Everyone's favorite Irish brothers talking Trinitarian theology.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB7VXi1valc (A 40-minute video by a woman from the Southern Evangelical Seminary. While I don't always post Evangelical sources, most Evangelicals are still Trinitarian.)

[Sundiata]

The best I can give you is John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

[Suriyanakhon]

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

- Surfin' Bird 1:30.

[Atheris]

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

A well a everybody's heard about the Bird
B-b-b Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, well the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word

[Sundiata]

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

- Surfin' Bird 1:30.

Access to the Holy Spirit is an art; it flows through Saints. Miracles epitomize mastery of the Christian way.

[Sundiata]

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

A well a everybody's heard about the Bird
B-b-b Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, well the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word

Trinitarian and doctrinally sound. Some Saints really can fly in the manner of birds.

[Suriyanakhon]

In the form of the Holy Spirit, the Word is also the Bird.

A well a everybody's heard about the Bird
B-b-b Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, well the Bird is the Word
A well a Bird, Bird, Bird, B-Bird's the Word

CDT in five minutes.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Is it just me or does Eastern Orthodoxy attract alot of converts?

[Salus Maior]

Is it just me or does Eastern Orthodoxy attract alot of converts?

Eh, depends where you're looking. I've noticed there's a decent amount of converts from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy, but I've noticed a lot of Evangelicals go to Catholicism too. Most people I know are converts to Catholicism from Methodism.

[North Washington Republic]

Is it just me or does Eastern Orthodoxy attract alot of converts?

Eh, depends where you're looking. I've noticed there's a decent amount of converts from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy, but I've noticed a lot of Evangelicals go to Catholicism too. Most people I know are converts to Catholicism from Methodism.

I noticed that a lot of white nationalists were attracted to Orthodoxy for awhile. The only Church I know that tolerates them is the Russian Orthodox Church.

[Lady Victory]

Is it just me or does Eastern Orthodoxy attract alot of converts?

Well I mean it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and everything else is clearly heresy.

/s

[Sundiata]

Is it just me or does Eastern Orthodoxy attract alot of converts?

A lot of people unfortunately put politics before their religion.

Eh, depends where you're looking. I've noticed there's a decent amount of converts from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy, but I've noticed a lot of Evangelicals go to Catholicism too. Most people I know are converts to Catholicism from Methodism.

I noticed that a lot of white nationalists were attracted to Orthodoxy for awhile. The only Church I know that tolerates them is the Russian Orthodox Church.