Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Tarsonis]

Question: If Marx were a Christian (or at the very least a theist leaning to Abrahamic dogma), would have Communism been embraced by religious circles worldwide? It seems that the main reason it's been rebuked is due to Marx's own atheistic views influencing Communism. Had that not been the case I assume Communism would've essentially been the ultimate Christian-esque political and economical concept to counter the more materialistic (and atheistic by default) Capitalist mindset.

The problem wasn't that Marx was anti-religion but that his philosophy necessitated anti-theism and tailoring it to fit a theistic worldview requires serious editing of it's perceptions and assumptions. It's far better to take ideals from Marxist philosophy and improve upon them without the adding baggage of anti-theism than it is to try and rewrite an anti-theistic philosophy in a more theistic-tolerant tone.

So the problem is that Marx was Anti-Religious.

[The Blaatschapen]

It looks increasingly likely that the Catholic Church is about to have three living Popes - a situation that would, I think, be unprecedented (assuming we're excluding antipopes).

Any thoughts from the resident Catholics?

They should get two more after that as well. Have five and declare a pentarchy.

[Sordhau]

The problem wasn't that Marx was anti-religion but that his philosophy necessitated anti-theism and tailoring it to fit a theistic worldview requires serious editing of it's perceptions and assumptions. It's far better to take ideals from Marxist philosophy and improve upon them without the adding baggage of anti-theism than it is to try and rewrite an anti-theistic philosophy in a more theistic-tolerant tone.

So the problem is that Marx was Anti-Religious.

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

[The Blaatschapen]

So the problem is that Marx was Anti-Religious.

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

It's the flipside from lots of theists being unable to separate their theism from their political philosophy.

[Sordhau]

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

It's the flipside from lots of theists being unable to separate their theism from their political philosophy.

Also true.

[Tarsonis]

So the problem is that Marx was Anti-Religious.

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

That's a distinction without a difference. People's backgrounds always influence their product. Naturally is Marx wasn't an atheist, his philosophy wouldn't have been anti-religious, quite the opposite. So not only was Marx's atheism a key quality in making him repugnant to religious societies, but the fact that it influenced so much of his work, even more so.

[Sordhau]

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

That's a distinction without a difference. People's backgrounds always influence their product. Naturally is Marx wasn't an atheist, his philosophy wouldn't have been anti-religious, quite the opposite. So not only was Marx's atheism a key quality in making him repugnant to religious societies, but the fact that it influenced so much of his work, even more so.

It is quite possible for one's religious views to not impact one's political views and I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

[Tarsonis]

That's a distinction without a difference. People's backgrounds always influence their product. Naturally is Marx wasn't an atheist, his philosophy wouldn't have been anti-religious, quite the opposite. So not only was Marx's atheism a key quality in making him repugnant to religious societies, but the fact that it influenced so much of his work, even more so.

It is quite possible for one's religious views to not impact one's political views and I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

No it isn't. There's no such thing as an unbiased position. Religion/lack there of, isn't just some high minded idea that people pay lip service to without actually believing (well some do but that's for another day), it's a fundamental framework of perceiving reality. How you perceive the world is fundamentally inseparable from how you act in it. Marx fundamentally believed that religion was part of the bourgeoise prison that had been erected to trap the proletariat. There's no way he'd ever push a philosophy that said "break your chains, except for that one if it suits you."

[Sordhau]

It is quite possible for one's religious views to not impact one's political views and I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

No it isn't. There's no such thing as an unbiased position. Religion/lack there of, isn't just some high minded idea that people pay lip service to without actually believing (well some do but that's for another day), it's a fundamental framework of perceiving reality. How you perceive the world is fundamentally inseparable from how you act in it. Marx fundamentally believed that religion was part of the bourgeoise prison that had been erected to trap the proletariat. There's no way he'd ever push a philosophy that said "break your chains, except for that one if it suits you."

Your mistake is conflating his political perception of religion with his personal irreligious stance, which is nonsense. The latter influence the former for certain, but the latter could also exist on it's own without the former. Marx wouldn't be any less of anti-theist if he simply thought religion was stupid rather than a tool of oppression.

[Tarsonis]

No it isn't. There's no such thing as an unbiased position. Religion/lack there of, isn't just some high minded idea that people pay lip service to without actually believing (well some do but that's for another day), it's a fundamental framework of perceiving reality. How you perceive the world is fundamentally inseparable from how you act in it. Marx fundamentally believed that religion was part of the bourgeoise prison that had been erected to trap the proletariat. There's no way he'd ever push a philosophy that said "break your chains, except for that one if it suits you."

Your mistake is conflating his political perception of religion with his personal irreligious stance, which is nonsense. The latter influence the former for certain, but the latter could also exist on it's own without the former. Marx wouldn't be any less of anti-theist if he simply thought religion was stupid rather than a tool of oppression.

The point is, he did think relgion was a tool of oppression, and his anti-religious views are no inseparable from his philosophy. This is demonstrable as, that is what happened. You can bandy wits all you want, but it is you who are mistaken here, and I really see no reason for you to try to rescue Marx from the criticisms that he is anti-religious. Even if he were to seperate his anti-theism from his philosophy, that'd mean little to his religious critics, who would hang him for that alone. There's a reason why communism gets smeared as godless, because both it, and its creator (as popularly understood), are anti-theist.

Communism might be rescuable from the anti-theist foundation, but it wouldn't be Marxism if it were.

[Tarsonis]

Anyway, Since we are now in the generally accepted page window, I'm the only one on, I've gone ahead and posted the new CDT. After much thought, I've decided this will be the last CDT that I will make, and I suspect will be my last to actively participate in. It's time I moved on and left it to someone else to caretake.

Thread link: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=523262

[HISPIDA]

No, his problem was that he couldn't separate his anti-theism from his political philosophy. Lot of Atheists are like that.

That's a distinction without a difference. People's backgrounds always influence their product. Naturally is Marx wasn't an atheist, his philosophy wouldn't have been anti-religious, quite the opposite. So not only was Marx's atheism a key quality in making him repugnant to religious societies, but the fact that it influenced so much of his work, even more so.

honestly, i think that this is jumping the gun a bit. marx's actual views on religion were more complex than "religion bad!" and his "opium of the people" quote is a bit misinterpreted.

marx's view on religion is less "religion is a bad thing and should be stamped out!"; his views on religion are more akin to a materialist atheist view (which is almost a classic example of marx's philosophy). marx's view on religion was that religion was a proto-revolutionary idealism, an expression of discomfort and at the same time a protest against the cause of said discomfort, such as oppression. when the oppression is destroyed, such as society's transition from a capitalist to socialist to communist society, then religion will lose relevance because oppression no longer exists. in a sense, it's a "withering away of religion" in the same vein as the withering away of the state. (now obviously i don't agree with this considering i'm a christian, that's just marx's view on the subject)

marx wasn't necessarily an "anti-theist"; he was more of a "post-theist," really, and thought that as society advanced the need for religion would eventually die out. his actual "opium of the people" quote is as follows (with some parts cut out for brevity's sake):

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man... Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion... It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality...

...Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

can you tell he liked italics?

[Tarsonis]

That's a distinction without a difference. People's backgrounds always influence their product. Naturally is Marx wasn't an atheist, his philosophy wouldn't have been anti-religious, quite the opposite. So not only was Marx's atheism a key quality in making him repugnant to religious societies, but the fact that it influenced so much of his work, even more so.

honestly, i think that this is jumping the gun a bit. marx's actual views on religion were more complex than "religion bad!" and his "opium of the people" quote is a bit misinterpreted.

marx's view on religion is less "religion is a bad thing and should be stamped out!"; his views on religion are more akin to a materialist atheist view (which is almost a classic example of marx's philosophy). marx's view on religion was that religion was a proto-revolutionary idealism, an expression of discomfort and at the same time a protest against the cause of said discomfort, such as oppression. when the oppression is destroyed, such as society's transition from a capitalist to socialist to communist society, then religion will lose relevance because oppression no longer exists. in a sense, it's a "withering away of religion" in the same vein as the withering away of the state. (now obviously i don't agree with this considering i'm a christian, that's just marx's view on the subject)

marx wasn't necessarily an "anti-theist"; he was more of a "post-theist," really, and thought that as society advanced the need for religion would eventually die out. his actual "opium of the people" quote is as follows (with some parts cut out for brevity's sake):

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man... Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion... It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality...

...Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

can you tell he liked italics?

new thread bring it over there

[Fahran]

One can argue that, unlike Bauer, Marx makes allowances for the continued public existence of religion under the secular state. In this regard, the empirical evidence and common intuition favor the position of Marx over that of Bauer and certain other Young Hegelians. It’s not accurate to state that Marx was wholly ambivalent to religion though. He explicitly harbored very negative attitudes towards what he called the “worldly Jew” and, by extension, to Judaism. Never mind that Marx had Jewish heritage, though this and the conversion to Lutheranism of his parents might explain elements of the antipathy.

[Tarsonis]

One can argue that, unlike Bauer, Marx makes allowances for the continued public existence of religion under the secular state. In this regard, the empirical evidence and common intuition favor the position of Marx over that of Bauer and certain other Young Hegelians. It’s not accurate to state that Marx was wholly ambivalent to religion though. He explicitly harbored very negative attitudes towards what he called the “worldly Jew” and, by extension, to Judaism. Never mind that Marx had Jewish heritage, though this and the conversion to Lutheranism of his parents might explain elements of the antipathy.

again, new thread let's bring it over there.


viewtopic.php?f=20&t=523262

[HISPIDA]

honestly, i think that this is jumping the gun a bit. marx's actual views on religion were more complex than "religion bad!" and his "opium of the people" quote is a bit misinterpreted.

marx's view on religion is less "religion is a bad thing and should be stamped out!"; his views on religion are more akin to a materialist atheist view (which is almost a classic example of marx's philosophy). marx's view on religion was that religion was a proto-revolutionary idealism, an expression of discomfort and at the same time a protest against the cause of said discomfort, such as oppression. when the oppression is destroyed, such as society's transition from a capitalist to socialist to communist society, then religion will lose relevance because oppression no longer exists. in a sense, it's a "withering away of religion" in the same vein as the withering away of the state. (now obviously i don't agree with this considering i'm a christian, that's just marx's view on the subject)

marx wasn't necessarily an "anti-theist"; he was more of a "post-theist," really, and thought that as society advanced the need for religion would eventually die out. his actual "opium of the people" quote is as follows (with some parts cut out for brevity's sake):



can you tell he liked italics?

new thread bring it over there

right, mb. mind if i repost it there?

[Tarsonis]

new thread bring it over there

right, mb. mind if i repost it there?

not at all, please do

[HISPIDA]

right, mb. mind if i repost it there?

not at all, please do

done, cheers mate

[Ayytaly]

Bumping because someone forgot to lock the thread.