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Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
268
34%
Eastern Orthodox
68
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
75
9%
Anglican/Episcopalian
41
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
76
10%
Methodist
21
3%
Baptist
65
8%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
50
6%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
31
4%
Other Christian
100
13%
 
Total votes : 795

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:57 am

Only just catching up - and some of you were likely dreading this moment....



Sundiata wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Yes, but just because something came before another thing doesn't mean one is descended from the other.

Fair, but do you concede that the Catholic Church preceded the Orthodox Church? Were there not Popes before the Great Schism?


Others have of course addressed this as well, but:

1) The Orthodox Church, more accurately the Orthodox Catholic Church, considers itself to be the Catholic Church, so no; no Orthodox Christian would concede that point. From a narrow theological perspective, the Orthodox view is that it's the one true Catholic Church; the organisation based in Rome is a schismatic hierarchy that broke away from, and is no longer in communion with, the Catholic Church. From a fairer-minded historical perspective, what we call for the sake of convenience the Orthodox and Catholic churches gradually evolved in different directions following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, and then broke away from each other in the 11th century. Both can realistically claim direct apostolic succession from the imperial church of the Roman Empire; along with the Oriental Orthodox communion and the Church of the East, there are four denominations that can make that claim with some degree of confidence.

2) There were Popes of Rome before the Great Schism, just as there were Popes of Alexandria, Patriarchs of Antioch, Patriarchs of Jerusalem, and Patriarchs of Constantinople for centuries before the Great Schism. The Pentarchy is enshrined in the mutually recognised Ecumenical Councils, and for centuries the Bishop of Rome was subordinate to the Roman Emperor in Constantinople (a period covering every Pope between Vilgilius and Zachary, and still known as the 'Byzantine Papacy'), so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Historically - and history and Tradition aren't always in concord here, alas - there's every reason to believe that the idea of a single recognised bishop ruling over a specific diocese originated in the East before it was established in the West (see, for example, the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch), while the concept of Apostolic Succession evolved first in the West (see the epistle we now know as 1 Clement); they were then combined to form the commonly accepted definition of a monarchical bishop whose legitimacy rests on Apostolic Succession.

It would be fair to note that the status of the Archbishops of Constantinople and Jerusalem as full members of a defined set of senior patriarchs developed after those of Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome, but then we have much better historical evidence of monarchical episcopal structures existing in Antioch and Alexandria before they existed in Rome; the term 'Pope' was used to describe the Bishop of Alexandria decades before it was applied to the Bishop of Rome (and is still a title of the Coptic and Orthodox patriarchs of Alexandria). The early Roman church - as with many Christian communities - was most likely initially led by a community of presbyters rather than by a single recognised bishop, though with some figures (for example Clement) enjoying a certain level of pre-eminence within that community. The idea that there's a single unbroken line of bishops from Peter through to Francis is a lovely tradition, but historically problematic.

The bishopric of Byzantium / Constantinople is held by tradition to have been founded by St Andrew the Apostle in AD38. However, like the bishopric of Rome, it likely took some time to emerge as a monarchical bishopric, and it's notable that none of the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch are addressed to what was then still Byzantium. Like the bishopric of Rome, it emerges clearly as a verifiable historical institution in the 2nd century. It then takes on a new significance once Constantine I re-establishes Byzantium as New Rome - more commonly Constantinople - becoming the Archbishopric of Constantinople under Alexander (314-347), and then being recognised as second in status to Rome in AD 381 via the third canon of the Second Ecumenical Council; this was confirmed by the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 (much to the chagrin of the bishops of Antioch and Alexandria), at which point the concept of a Pentarchy of 'patriarchs' takes firmer root, and the title 'patriarch' becomes more formally used. The Orthodox Church, however, counts Alexander's predecessor Metrophanes (306-314) as the first full Patriarch of Constantinople on the basis of an unverifiable tradition that Constantine granted him the right to use the title. Many early bishoprics considered themselves 'patriarchates', and not all survived with that status recognised and/or intact - see the interlinked histories of the patriarchates of Grado, Aquileia, and Venice for examples in the Western Church (Lisbon doesn't count; the Archbishop of Lisbon was only given the title of 'patriarch' in the 18th century).

Short version, while the status of Constantinople as a patriarchate of the Pentarchy post-dates the firm establishment of a recognised Bishop of Rome, the establishment of monarchical episcopacy in Rome almost certainly post-dates its establishment in Antioch and Alexandria.


Finally, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I don't know where you found that chart you shared of the supposed descent of various Christian denominations, but it was astonishingly poor from a historical perspective. I respectfully submit that your grasp of early church history isn't perhaps that strong. I can recommend some books written by historians of the early church who are writing from a theologically neutral perspective - rather than from an inherently Catholic or Orthodox perspective - if that would help.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Dowaesk
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Postby Dowaesk » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:26 am

Sundiata wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
For simplicity sake, I'm only counting what came about from the first split that ever happened or what existed previously to that event. When Christianity began, there was the Roman empire, but the Roman empire gradually divided into western and eastern halves over time. With the western half not surviving intact as long as the Eastern portion.

The first three main centers for Christianity were supposedly Rome, Alexandria, or Antioch.

Image

Did you make the chart on your own?

I made a Sunni Islam sects chart as well. But I havent been able to show the relation between cousin sects in one simple chart. So im assuming that that chart would also be more complicated when in words that on a simple chart.
Last edited by Dowaesk on Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:54 am

Dowaesk wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Image

Did you make the chart on your own?

I made an Sunni Islam sects chart as well. But I havent been able to show the relation between cousin sects in one simple chart. So im assuming that that chart would also be more complicated when in words that on a simple chart.


It's basically Catholic propaganda and is riddled with inaccuracies. You can find a much more accurate version on Wikipedia.
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:08 am

Lady Victory wrote:
It's basically Catholic propaganda and is riddled with inaccuracies. You can find a much more accurate version on Wikipedia.


I'd say don't assign malice where incompetance is probable.

I mean, even a couple games in the Civ series say that the Roman Catholic Church was the original Christian Church in their descriptions. Somehow I doubt that Firaxis is a Catholic institution. Probably just a simple mistake or misunderstanding.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:20 am

Lady Victory wrote:It's basically Catholic propaganda and is riddled with inaccuracies. You can find a much more accurate version on Wikipedia.


Quite apart from the errors that others have pointed out, I'm particularly fond of how it shows 'Russian Orthodox', 'Serbian Orthodox', and 'Greek Orthodox' as subdivisions of 'Eastern Orthodoxy', rather than as part of the same denomination. And if we try to argue that this is merely trying to outline autocephalous jurisdictions within Orthodoxy (inconsistently, given the other divisions in the chart are mostly denominational), then what happened to the other 12?

It also leaves out the Church of the East.

And why include the amazingly specific 'Church of God, Cleveland, TN', but leave out the divisions within the Church of Scotland? And since when has the Church of Scotland not been part of Presbyterianism?

Etc., etc.

Really, it's embarrassingly bad; though I'm happy to accept Salus's point that this merely stems from lack of knowledge rather than malice.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:24 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:It's basically Catholic propaganda and is riddled with inaccuracies. You can find a much more accurate version on Wikipedia.


Quite apart from the errors that others have pointed out, I'm particularly fond of how it shows 'Russian Orthodox', 'Serbian Orthodox', and 'Greek Orthodox' as subdivisions of 'Eastern Orthodoxy', rather than as part of the same denomination. And if we try to argue that this is merely trying to outline autocephalous jurisdictions within Orthodoxy (inconsistently, given the other divisions in the chart are mostly denominational), then what happened to the other 12?

It also leaves out the Church of the East.

And why include the amazingly specific 'Church of God, Cleveland, TN', but leave out the divisions within the Church of Scotland? And since when has the Church of Scotland not been part of Presbyterianism?

Etc., etc.

Really, it's embarrassingly bad; though I'm happy to accept Salus's point that this merely stems from lack of knowledge rather than malice.


Maybe they're the ones that made it xP

Actually, that would make a lot of sense if it were made by some certain American Protestants trying to show where they fit historically. It does seem pretty American-centric.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:03 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Quite apart from the errors that others have pointed out, I'm particularly fond of how it shows 'Russian Orthodox', 'Serbian Orthodox', and 'Greek Orthodox' as subdivisions of 'Eastern Orthodoxy', rather than as part of the same denomination. And if we try to argue that this is merely trying to outline autocephalous jurisdictions within Orthodoxy (inconsistently, given the other divisions in the chart are mostly denominational), then what happened to the other 12?

It also leaves out the Church of the East.

And why include the amazingly specific 'Church of God, Cleveland, TN', but leave out the divisions within the Church of Scotland? And since when has the Church of Scotland not been part of Presbyterianism?

Etc., etc.

Really, it's embarrassingly bad; though I'm happy to accept Salus's point that this merely stems from lack of knowledge rather than malice.


Maybe they're the ones that made it xP


If they did, then it seems they oversimplified the origins of their denomination.

If Wikipedia is reliable here, the Church of God, Cleveland, TN, was formed as the result of a disagreement over Baptist theology, and only later affiliated itself with Holiness Pentacostalism (which is indeed descended in turn from Methodism). So it would seem to have dual roots in two separate strands of American evangelical Protestantism rather than just the one; which is hardly surprising given the cross-pollination that occurred during the Great Awakenings.

It's also a surprisingly large organisation. According to that Wikipedia link, it claims 7 million members internationally; I'm still capable of being surprised by American evangelicals.

But I agree that the chart seems to be oddly focused on a limited selection of American Protestants. It seems to exist at that narrow intersection between American Protestants (and anti-Mormon ones given the exclusion of LDS movement denominations) oversimplifying their own history while accepting at face value the historical claims of a particular subset of conservative Roman Catholics - and more or less ignoring everyone else.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:45 am

best I can find, the image comes from a defunct printerest page. I wouldn't exactly call it Catholic official
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Postby Lady Victory » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:28 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Maybe they're the ones that made it xP


If they did, then it seems they oversimplified the origins of their denomination.

If Wikipedia is reliable here, the Church of God, Cleveland, TN, was formed as the result of a disagreement over Baptist theology, and only later affiliated itself with Holiness Pentacostalism (which is indeed descended in turn from Methodism). So it would seem to have dual roots in two separate strands of American evangelical Protestantism rather than just the one; which is hardly surprising given the cross-pollination that occurred during the Great Awakenings.

It's also a surprisingly large organisation. According to that Wikipedia link, it claims 7 million members internationally; I'm still capable of being surprised by American evangelicals.

But I agree that the chart seems to be oddly focused on a limited selection of American Protestants. It seems to exist at that narrow intersection between American Protestants (and anti-Mormon ones given the exclusion of LDS movement denominations) oversimplifying their own history while accepting at face value the historical claims of a particular subset of conservative Roman Catholics - and more or less ignoring everyone else.


Excluding Mormons makes sense given Mormonism isn't Christian.
Last edited by Lady Victory on Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Catarapania » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:39 am

Lady Victory wrote:Excluding Mormons makes sense given Mormonism isn't Christian.


I personally classify it as a Christian-adjacent, as Jesus still plays a major role in their theology.

But yeah. When the universe always existed, and "God" is just a human who lived the right way in his past life, we're talking about something that isn't even heretical. It's just something entirely different from Christianity as it has always existed.

Jehovah's Witnesses rise to the level of being heretics, though.

In any case, I think we can all agree that the chart is bad. I'd argue that the attempt to make a definitive chart like that is misguided in the first place. You can't make a cladogram of Christian denominations because of the "cross-pollination" (as The Archregimancy aptly put it) that occurred within Protestantism.

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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:41 am

Catarapania wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:Excluding Mormons makes sense given Mormonism isn't Christian.


I personally classify it as a Christian-adjacent, as Jesus still plays a major role in their theology.


I mean, Jesus is also a major figure in Islam.
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Postby Catarapania » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:57 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Catarapania wrote:
I personally classify it as a Christian-adjacent, as Jesus still plays a major role in their theology.


I mean, Jesus is also a major figure in Islam.


Not to the same degree as in Mormonism. Jesus in Mormonism is the central figure, and the Book of Mormon is basically about how He appeared to the Native Americans (to oversimplify things dramatically). To my understanding, Jesus in Islam is a prophet - significant, but no more so than Elijah or Moses would be to us.
Last edited by Catarapania on Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hispida » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:14 am

Catarapania wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, Jesus is also a major figure in Islam.


Not to the same degree as in Mormonism. Jesus in Mormonism is the central figure, and the Book of Mormon is basically about how He appeared to the Native Americans (to oversimplify things dramatically). To my understanding, Jesus in Islam is a prophet - significant, but no more so than Elijah or Moses would be to us.

To be a bit more accurate, Jesus is the penultimate Prophet (before Mohammed, pbuh) and the Messiah.
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:36 am

The Archregimancy wrote:Finally, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I don't know where you found that chart you shared of the supposed descent of various Christian denominations, but it was astonishingly poor from a historical perspective. I respectfully submit that your grasp of early church history isn't perhaps that strong. I can recommend some books written by historians of the early church who are writing from a theologically neutral perspective - rather than from an inherently Catholic or Orthodox perspective - if that would help.

I'm open to some book suggestions to get a view of early Christianity that isn't biased towards the West.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:42 am

Lady Victory wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
If they did, then it seems they oversimplified the origins of their denomination.

If Wikipedia is reliable here, the Church of God, Cleveland, TN, was formed as the result of a disagreement over Baptist theology, and only later affiliated itself with Holiness Pentacostalism (which is indeed descended in turn from Methodism). So it would seem to have dual roots in two separate strands of American evangelical Protestantism rather than just the one; which is hardly surprising given the cross-pollination that occurred during the Great Awakenings.

It's also a surprisingly large organisation. According to that Wikipedia link, it claims 7 million members internationally; I'm still capable of being surprised by American evangelicals.

But I agree that the chart seems to be oddly focused on a limited selection of American Protestants. It seems to exist at that narrow intersection between American Protestants (and anti-Mormon ones given the exclusion of LDS movement denominations) oversimplifying their own history while accepting at face value the historical claims of a particular subset of conservative Roman Catholics - and more or less ignoring everyone else.


Excluding Mormons makes sense given Mormonism isn't Christian.


I wouldn't remotely argue the point, at least not for the largest offshoot, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; I was only trying to look at the issue from the perspective of American Protestantism, where views on the LDS Movement tend to be more mixed.

For what it's worth, I would be willing to group the second-largest LDS church, the Community of Christ, under the broader umbrella of American Protestantism. They accept the Trinity, and reject a literal reading of the Book of Mormon.

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Postby North Washington Republic » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:36 pm

Hispida wrote:
Catarapania wrote:
Not to the same degree as in Mormonism. Jesus in Mormonism is the central figure, and the Book of Mormon is basically about how He appeared to the Native Americans (to oversimplify things dramatically). To my understanding, Jesus in Islam is a prophet - significant, but no more so than Elijah or Moses would be to us.

To be a bit more accurate, Jesus is the penultimate Prophet (before Mohammed, pbuh) and the Messiah.


Muslims also believe in the 2nd coming and the virgin birth. Like Catholics and the Orthodox, they have a deep reverence for Mary.
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Postby Immortan Khan » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Catarapania wrote:
I personally classify it as a Christian-adjacent, as Jesus still plays a major role in their theology.


I mean, Jesus is also a major figure in Islam.

Yes but not in the same way that Mormonism treats Jesus and it didn't fall away nearly as much as Islam did.
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:41 pm

I suppose I should address this since many of our Catholics here attend TLM, and the Pope’s recent decision has left many people confused and hurting. I’d like to offer my view of the matter, and to perhaps counsel the doubtful in this instance.

Recently, the Pope made a decision to restrict the usage of TLM. Naturally this decision has been mistranslated across mediums, including some Catholic media. I will post the Pope’s own letter on the matter at the end of this blurb, but I do want to clarify what it says for TL;DR purposes.

1.) The Pope is giving the duty of allowing TLM to bishops in their dioceses. That means that TLM and its usage will be left to the bishops and to the priests in that parish.
2.) Laypeople are no longer allowed to ask specifically for TLM unless they have the approval of the priests or bishop of their diocese. TLM is now restricted to High Masses only.
3.) The Pope has made this decision based on a survey which seems to be confounding individuals who are not sure who or what was the topic of the survey. However, Pope Francis has made this decision seemingly on the grounds that individuals were using TLM less as a form of worship and more as an aesthetic cudgel against Novus Ordo. This is likely a very small, vocal group, and not the normal TLM attendee (as we have several here).

So what does this mean? Let’s do a Baltimore Catechism roundup:

Does Pope Francis hate the Latin Mass?
Pope Francis does not hate the Latin Mass. He has performed it and in his letter he even mentions the beauty of the service. His decision does not reflect a hatred for TLM.

Will the bishop or priest in my diocese get rid of TLM?
Most likely not. If the Latin Mass is popular in one’s diocese, it will most likely remain. Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco has already made it clear, for example, that his Archdiocese will keep the Latin Mass. Changing Mass schedules is a hassle for most priests.

Does the Pope think heretics attend TLM?
No. The Pope states in his letter that some people who attend this Mass have been using TLM to ignore the spirit of Vatican II. What does this mean? It means there are people using the TLM not as a form of worship, but as an aesthetic badge to say they are “the True Church”. Once again, this seems to be addressing Sedevacantists, whom the Pope has been pushing to re-enter the Church. If you are a normal individual attending TLM because you prefer the liturgy, chances are very high he is not fussing at you and would not stop you from attending TLM.

What should I do if I am feeling doubtful or afraid or angry?
Speak to your priest/spiritual director/confessor, for one. They are the best person to help channel your anger or frustration on the issue. Pray frequently on the matter, continue to go to church. Pray the Rosary. Continue being a faithful Catholic, and pray for the Pope and his decisions. He has done a lot of good recently, but we must continue to pray that his decisions are made in the Spirit.

For anyone interested, here is the letter below, in both Italian and English (scroll down for English translation):
https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... .html#ingL

All of those who are struggling with this announcement, we must continue in good faith through our confusion and doubts. The Church is in crisis. We are all needed here, now more than ever. You are all in my prayers, and as more news comes forward about this circumstance, it is best for us to stand together.
Last edited by Luminesa on Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hispida » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:17 pm

...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:19 pm

Hispida wrote:...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.


Traditional Latin Mass, a lot of Trad Caths still prefer to do service in Latin.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:20 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Hispida wrote:...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.


Traditional Latin Mass, a lot of Trad Caths still prefer to do service in Latin.

Huh. Kinda weird that you'll attend church in a language you don't understand, but I listen to Japanese music from an era I wasn't even conceived in, so I guess that's fair.
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Catarapania
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Postby Catarapania » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:22 pm

Hispida wrote:...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.

Pretty sure it's another name for the Tridentine mass. If I'm right, then basically, Pope Francis is trying to encourage the "vernacular" mass that was introduced with Vatican II over the traditional Latin mass.

But I'm an Evangelical, not a Roman Catholic. So take my words with a grain of salt.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:30 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Hispida wrote:...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.


Traditional Latin Mass, a lot of Trad Caths still prefer to do service in Latin.

"TLM" and "Trad Caths" sound like the pointlessly "hip" jargon you'd hear from a Presbyterian youth minister.

But that's just my opinion.
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:36 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Traditional Latin Mass, a lot of Trad Caths still prefer to do service in Latin.

"TLM" and "Trad Caths" sound like the pointlessly "hip" jargon you'd hear from a Presbyterian youth minister.

But that's just my opinion.

I apologize, I didn’t want to write “Traditional Latin Mass” 12 times, because I’m lazy today. XD
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:40 pm

Catarapania wrote:
Hispida wrote:...The fuck's a TLM, anyways? Sounds like a TV channel.

Pretty sure it's another name for the Tridentine mass. If I'm right, then basically, Pope Francis is trying to encourage the "vernacular" mass that was introduced with Vatican II over the traditional Latin mass.

But I'm an Evangelical, not a Roman Catholic. So take my words with a grain of salt.

You are half-correct. Pope Francis wants to promote the spirit of Vatican II, which means he wants to focus on the congregation and the healing that is necessary for them. Some people have been using the Latin Mass to prevent unity (according to the letter), and so he made revisions to how it is to be used in a diocese. But most Latin Mass attendees will still be able to attend Latin Mass.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
Help the Ukrainian people, here's some sources!
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Jesus loves all of His children in Eastern Europe - pray for peace.
Pray for Ukraine, Wear Sunflowers In Your Hair

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