Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Suriyanakhon]

"only Russians can have salvation"

I want to make a joke about a certain Ivan Shatov, but unfortunately I don't think anyone would get it.

[Prima Scriptura]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

[Tarsonis]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

Perchance, but I happen to think the Pope is right.

[Salus Maior]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

“God does not want us to be slaves, but sons and daughters,” Francis said. “He does not want to make decisions for us, or oppress us with a sacral power, exercised in a world governed by religious laws. No! He created us to be free, and he asks us to be mature and responsible persons in life and in society.”

I suppose it's much more pleasing to Francis that instead of being governed by what God has revealed as truth, we should be better governed by the demands of the liberal bourgeois society that presently rules the world. What a load of drivel.

22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians: 7

16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[a] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6


Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

[Salus Maior]

And besides, that doesn't even fit the situation which happened in the schools considering the Church was doing the will of the state in doing what it did to the First Nations and Native Americans.

I suppose those that committed those atrocities to those children were very responsible and loyal citizens indeed.

[Prima Scriptura]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

“God does not want us to be slaves, but sons and daughters,” Francis said. “He does not want to make decisions for us, or oppress us with a sacral power, exercised in a world governed by religious laws. No! He created us to be free, and he asks us to be mature and responsible persons in life and in society.”

I suppose it's much more pleasing to Francis that instead of being governed by what God has revealed as truth, we should be better governed by the demands of the liberal bourgeois society that presently rules the world. What a load of drivel.

22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians: 7

16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[a] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6


Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

I would argue that this will only be possible when Christ returns. This is a very sinful world. The fall of man makes it impossible for this to be a prefect and Christlike World. We can try our best, but they will be failures along the way until the 2nd advent. We are humans.

[Umeria]

Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

Geez. I'd rather not have religious standards, some of which are quite arbitrary, be imposed by force upon everyone. Like, even what you quoted seems like it's talking about personal decisions.

[Salus Maior]

I would argue that this will only be possible when Christ returns. This is a very sinful world. The fall of man makes it impossible for this to be a prefect and Christlike World. We can try our best, but they will be failures along the way until the 2nd advent. We are humans.

The irony between us right now is that, historically, it was Wesleyans (broadly stated) who believed the world could be perfected. Of course, I'm not saying the world can be perfected and I don't believe that at all, but people can conform themselves to Christ and be of service in the world. And sometimes that means not being a "responsible" citizen and calling out and fighting the public square.

What Francis is asking for is a deference to the state on the part of people of Christian conviction. Which is frankly hilarious historically speaking because that's what the bishops and the clergy have been doing, especially in Canada and especially during the time of the residential schools. Originally a lot of missionary schools in Canada among the First Nations weren't coercive or genocidal. In certain schools (that I am aware of) they were taught in their own language, and their families were allowed to reside with the students and tribal familial bonds were respected. The state changed that, enforced rules upon these schools that isolated the children and were intended to destroy their identity for the goals of the state. Hell, these schools were perceived as progressive.

The crimes of the residential schools were not so much one of Christianity ruling society, but the Church being a collaborator and servant to the will of the state.

[Salus Maior]

Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

Geez. I'd rather not have religious standards, some of which are quite arbitrary, be imposed by force upon everyone. Like, even what you quoted seems like it's talking about personal decisions.

I'm more referring to Francis's claims on what "God wants for us" more than saying religious law should be enforced in a fundamentalist fashion.

[Tarsonis]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

“God does not want us to be slaves, but sons and daughters,” Francis said. “He does not want to make decisions for us, or oppress us with a sacral power, exercised in a world governed by religious laws. No! He created us to be free, and he asks us to be mature and responsible persons in life and in society.”

I suppose it's much more pleasing to Francis that instead of being governed by what God has revealed as truth, we should be better governed by the demands of the liberal bourgeois society that presently rules the world. What a load of drivel.

22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians: 7

16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[a] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6


Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

First of all, you know damn well that "Slavery" has an entirely different context now, than it did in first century Judea. That's why most modern translations use "servant" in the place of slave. Conceptual dynamics change with the world.

Secondly, nowhere were we ordered to establish theocratic governments and force people under force of law and violence to conform to Christian teachings. Such occurances were abominations and blights upon the Church.

The Good Father is correct in every regard.

[Suriyanakhon]

Being slaves of Christ is exactly what God wants. God wants the world conformed to Himself, not the Church conformed to a man-made bullshit ideology.

Geez. I'd rather not have religious standards, some of which are quite arbitrary, be imposed by force upon everyone. Like, even what you quoted seems like it's talking about personal decisions.

My knowledge of Pre-Risorgimento Italy isn't the best, but the Papal States (sacral power in temporal form) didn't seem to really be a great place for holiness.

[Great Heathen Air Force]

God does not want ‘a world governed by religious laws,’ pope tells Canadian clergy

Francis seem to be really trying his best to apologize and reconciliate the indigenous people of Canada. However, I think his words of about the role of religion in government policy will anger right-wing Catholics, as this Pope has a habit of doing.

I suspect there's nothing meaningful a Pope can say that will please everyone.

[Salus Maior]

First of all, you know damn well that "Slavery" has an entirely different context now, than it did in first century Judea. That's why most modern translations use "servant" in the place of slave. Conceptual dynamics change with the world.

Secondly, nowhere were we ordered to establish theocratic governments and force people under force of law and violence to conform to Christian teachings. Such occurances were abominations and blights upon the Church.

The Good Father is correct in every regard.

Somehow I doubt we would call any person in Roman slavery a "servant" instead of a "slave". The intensity of the deference to God's will is what's being emphasized in St. Paul's writing, that is what is meant by "slave".

It wasn't a theocratic government that established the residential schools. The Church was being a "mature, responsible" set of citizens towards the government of Canada in taking up that work and adjusting their already existing schools to the genocidal ruleset being impressed by the government. The crimes of the schools were, again, of collaboration with secular society and not society being conformed to Christ.

[Umeria]

Geez. I'd rather not have religious standards, some of which are quite arbitrary, be imposed by force upon everyone. Like, even what you quoted seems like it's talking about personal decisions.

I'm more referring to Francis's claims on what "God wants for us" more than saying religious law should be enforced in a fundamentalist fashion.

Then what exactly do you disagree with him on? Terminology?

[Tarsonis]

First of all, you know damn well that "Slavery" has an entirely different context now, than it did in first century Judea. That's why most modern translations use "servant" in the place of slave. Conceptual dynamics change with the world.

Secondly, nowhere were we ordered to establish theocratic governments and force people under force of law and violence to conform to Christian teachings. Such occurances were abominations and blights upon the Church.

The Good Father is correct in every regard.

Somehow I doubt we would call any person in Roman slavery a "servant" instead of a "slave". The intensity of the deference to God's will is what's being emphasized in St. Paul's writing, that is what is meant by "slave".

You think African slaves were "intensly" deferential to their masters will? As they were brutalized and treated like chattel for hundreds of years? Way to miss the point.

It wasn't a theocratic government that established the residential schools. The Church was being a "mature, responsible" set of citizens towards the government of Canada in taking up that work and adjusting their already existing schools to the genocidal ruleset being impressed by the government. The crimes of the schools were, again, of collaboration with secular society and not society being conformed to Christ.

Society will never be conformed to Christ. Only people can conform themselves to Christ which, in case you missed it, was what he said.

[Red Lake Circle]

First of all, you know damn well that "Slavery" has an entirely different context now, than it did in first century Judea. That's why most modern translations use "servant" in the place of slave. Conceptual dynamics change with the world.

Secondly, nowhere were we ordered to establish theocratic governments and force people under force of law and violence to conform to Christian teachings. Such occurances were abominations and blights upon the Church.

The Good Father is correct in every regard.

Somehow I doubt we would call any person in Roman slavery a "servant" instead of a "slave". The intensity of the deference to God's will is what's being emphasized in St. Paul's writing, that is what is meant by "slave".

It wasn't a theocratic government that established the residential schools. The Church was being a "mature, responsible" set of citizens towards the government of Canada in taking up that work and adjusting their already existing schools to the genocidal ruleset being impressed by the government. The crimes of the schools were, again, of collaboration with secular society and not society being conformed to Christ.

But that's the thing. A theocracy would have these exact people still in charge of things, their own prejudices and necessary collaborations present in whatever ventures they took. It's just man's laws and judgements with God's name applied as a pleasant-looking coat of paint.

[Salus Maior]

Somehow I doubt we would call any person in Roman slavery a "servant" instead of a "slave". The intensity of the deference to God's will is what's being emphasized in St. Paul's writing, that is what is meant by "slave".

You think African slaves were "intensly" deferential to their masters will? As they were brutalized and treated like chattel for hundreds of years? Way to miss the point.

Society will never be conformed to Christ. Only people can conform themselves to Christ which, in case you missed it, what what he said.

You think Roman slaves were happy to be slaves? What was Spartacus all up in arms about then? American chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery that exists. Paul's use of "slave" makes perfect sense among his commentaries on obedience and the culture of his time. But debating this is careening towards another topic entirely and I want to focus on one thing.

A man or woman conformed to Christ in the right place at the right time can still make all the difference. Blessed Karl makes that clear in the testimony of his life, plenty of Saints in influential positions do. Society will always be magnetized to evil, sure, but that does not mean that efforts to support the truth and do good are in vain. Christians should not be silent and uncritically deferential to a culture and society that doesn't have any truth in it at all and supports evil things.

[Prima Scriptura]

You think African slaves were "intensly" deferential to their masters will? As they were brutalized and treated like chattel for hundreds of years? Way to miss the point.

Society will never be conformed to Christ. Only people can conform themselves to Christ which, in case you missed it, what what he said.

You think Roman slaves were happy to be slaves? What was Spartacus all up in arms about then? American chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery that exists. Paul's use of "slave" makes perfect sense among his commentaries on obedience and the culture of his time. But debating this is careening towards another topic entirely and I want to focus on one thing.

A man or woman conformed to Christ in the right place at the right time can still make all the difference. Blessed Karl makes that clear in the testimony of his life, plenty of Saints in influential positions do. Society will always be magnetized to evil, sure, but that does not mean that efforts to support the truth and do good are in vain. Christians should not be silent and uncritically deferential to a culture and society that doesn't have any truth in it at all and supports evil things.

Yes, but Christian should also except the fact that the majority of the world is going to reject the truth of Jesus Christ and live a lifestyle contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For things like abortion, we don’t have to use our faith to demonstrate it why it is harmful.

[Salus Maior]

Yes, but Christian should also except the fact that the majority of the world is going to reject the truth of Jesus Christ and live a lifestyle contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For things like abortion, we don’t have to use our faith to demonstrate it why it is harmful.

Yes, but why do we even go to the length of demonstrating why it's bad in the first place?

[Tarsonis]

You think African slaves were "intensly" deferential to their masters will? As they were brutalized and treated like chattel for hundreds of years? Way to miss the point.

Society will never be conformed to Christ. Only people can conform themselves to Christ which, in case you missed it, what what he said.

You think Roman slaves were happy to be slaves? What was Spartacus all up in arms about then? American chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery that exists. Paul's use of "slave" makes perfect sense among his commentaries on obedience and the culture of his time. But debating this is careening towards another topic entirely and I want to focus on one thing.

You're still missing the point. Slavery, in the public consciousness had a very different meaning in first century Judea, where station and divine providence went hand in hand.

We have a very different outlook on Slavery than people did then. We don't see Slavery as a part of everyday life which people move in and out of, with and a dutiful ethic of serving their master in all things. We see Slavery as a barbaric, brutal, oppressive practice what we have rightfully left behind, in our savage past.

Saying we're supposed to be slaves to God doesn't invoke in the mind the same idea now, as it did then. Then it brought to mind the image of the dutiful housecarl serving his master in all things, as is right and just. Now, it invokes the image of a suffering people brutalized by oppressive and destructive God without mercy.

A man or woman conformed to Christ in the right place at the right time can still make all the difference. Blessed Karl makes that clear in the testimony of his life, plenty of Saints in influential positions do. Society will always be magnetized to evil, sure, but that does not mean that efforts to support the truth and do good are in vain. Christians should not be silent and uncritically deferential to a culture and society that doesn't have any truth in it at all and supports evil things.

You seem to be reading a lot into the Pope's words because he never said otherwise.

[Prima Scriptura]

Yes, but Christian should also except the fact that the majority of the world is going to reject the truth of Jesus Christ and live a lifestyle contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For things like abortion, we don’t have to use our faith to demonstrate it why it is harmful.

Yes, but why do we even go to the length of demonstrating why it's bad in the first place?

Because if we use our faith as justification to ban abortion in all in most cases, those efforts will fail. Look at the arguments in the Dobbs case, no religion was used in order to argue further overturning of Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood V Casey.

[Salus Maior]

You seem to be reading a lot into the Pope's words because he never said otherwise.

It's often what's unsaid, and the wider context of things that matters. That pro-choice politicians were communed in the Vatican, that Francis appointed a Bishop in D.C who strongly believes that pro-choice politicians shouldn't be denied communion, the lack of meaningful condemnation of Germany, and the constant condemnations of religion in politics shows a pattern. Francis wants to support the current liberal democratic world order, and believes the Church should support it as well. I'm not going to assume reasons or make a conspiracy about it, but that much is obvious.

[Salus Maior]

Yes, but why do we even go to the length of demonstrating why it's bad in the first place?

Because if we use our faith as justification to ban abortion in all in most cases, those efforts will fail. Look at the arguments in the Dobbs case, no religion was used in order to argue further overturning of Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood V Casey.

You misunderstood my question.

[Prima Scriptura]

You seem to be reading a lot into the Pope's words because he never said otherwise.

It's often what's unsaid, and the wider context of things that matters. That pro-choice politicians were communed in the Vatican, that Francis appointed a Bishop in D.C who strongly believes that pro-choice politicians shouldn't be denied communion, the lack of meaningful condemnation of Germany, and the constant condemnations of religion in politics shows a pattern. Francis wants to support the current liberal democratic world order, and believes the Church should support it as well. I'm not going to assume reasons or make a conspiracy about it, but that much is obvious.

I mean, the Papal States don’t exist anymore. So, what can they do?

[Salus Maior]

It's often what's unsaid, and the wider context of things that matters. That pro-choice politicians were communed in the Vatican, that Francis appointed a Bishop in D.C who strongly believes that pro-choice politicians shouldn't be denied communion, the lack of meaningful condemnation of Germany, and the constant condemnations of religion in politics shows a pattern. Francis wants to support the current liberal democratic world order, and believes the Church should support it as well. I'm not going to assume reasons or make a conspiracy about it, but that much is obvious.

I mean, the Papal States don’t exist anymore. So, what can they do?

Who cares about the Papal States?