Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Dreria]

On a different note, I have some close friends who worship under the Church of Jerusalem, and they have some, uh… opinions on the legitimacy of the current Patriarch, unless I misinterpreted what they were saying.

I’m not well-versed enough in Orthodox theology or hierarchy to have an informed opinion, so I’m wondering what you folks’ thoughts were.

the previous patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed in a controversial manner over his alleged involvement in a deal that sold land to Jewish settlers. After that he did not leave his apartment for a long time while his supporters lifted food into it by a rope and pulley. It was a matter of dispute whether he was staying in the apartment by choice or not.

[Red Lake Circle]

On a different note, I have some close friends who worship under the Church of Jerusalem, and they have some, uh… opinions on the legitimacy of the current Patriarch, unless I misinterpreted what they were saying.

I’m not well-versed enough in Orthodox theology or hierarchy to have an informed opinion, so I’m wondering what you folks’ thoughts were.

the previous patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed in a controversial manner over his alleged involvement in a deal that sold land to Jewish settlers. After that he did not leave his apartment for a long time while his supporters lifted food into it by a rope and pulley. It was a matter of dispute whether he was staying in the apartment by choice or not.

Huh, I knew most of that, but I didn’t know that his house arrest might not have actually been a house arrest at all. Still, I don’t know a lot about the details of the alleged land deal or why, if Irenaios was actually involved, why it would be troubling enough to see him dismissed from the position.

[Salus Maior]

This doesn't even deserve my wasting the necessary effort to express my contempt.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they wind up saying only ethnic Russians can be saved.

That the ROC supports the Russian state is something every Orthodox church does in any state, I'm not sure what to call it and this is probably wrong but it's fairly traditional (small t I'd say) that any Orthodox church pray for and support the state they reside in.

I seem to remember a story of Japanese Orthodox Christians praying for the victory of the Emperor over the Tsar in the Russo-Japanese war, for example.

This is a far cry from the claim of ethnic exclusivity for salvation and you have 0 reason to believe that outside of bigotry and ignorance.

[The Archregimancy]

On a different note, I have some close friends who worship under the Church of Jerusalem, and they have some, uh… opinions on the legitimacy of the current Patriarch, unless I misinterpreted what they were saying.

I’m not well-versed enough in Orthodox theology or hierarchy to have an informed opinion, so I’m wondering what you folks’ thoughts were.

Your post isn't entirely clear - and I can only assume that your friends are in the Middle East - but this is likely referring to the deposition of Patriarch Irenaios of Jerusalem in 2005, and his replacement with current Patriarch Theophilos III.

The short version - and this is a complex situation, so this is necessarily a very brief summary - is that Irenaios was accused of selling the property of the Orthodox Church to a right-wing Jewish settler group with the avowed goal of building a Jewish majority within Jerusalem's Old City. For historical reasons, the Orthodox Church is one of the main landowners in Jerusalem - it's even the formal landowner of the site of the Israeli Knesset.

Irenaios' actions were so controversial that, remarkably, he managed to unite all of the senior patriarchates - including Constantinople and Moscow actually agreeing on a jurisdictional issue, which demonstrates the scale of the concerns - in agreeing in a pan-Orthodox synod in 2005 to depose the Patriarch of Jerusalem and replace him with new patriarch Theophilos III.

The catch is that, under the Ottoman Status Quo, a new Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem had to be recognised by all of the governments covered by his territorial jurisdiction, which these days means Israel, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority. Jordan and Palestine immediately recognised Theophilos. However, Israel initially continued to recognise Irenaios, going so far as continuing to invite him to state occasions traditionally attended by the Orthodox Patriarch. Israel eventually came around in 2007, and now all three jurisdictions recognise Theophilos.

So there was a period where the legitimacy of the current Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem was disputed, but all relevant church and secular bodies now recognise current patriarch Theophilos III.

[Prima Scriptura]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they wind up saying only ethnic Russians can be saved.

That the ROC supports the Russian state is something every Orthodox church does in any state, I'm not sure what to call it and this is probably wrong but it's fairly traditional (small t I'd say) that any Orthodox church pray for and support the state they reside in.

I seem to remember a story of Japanese Orthodox Christians praying for the victory of the Emperor over the Tsar in the Russo-Japanese war, for example.

This is a far cry from the claim of ethnic exclusivity for salvation and you have 0 reason to believe that outside of bigotry and ignorance.

My comment was hyperbole, but The Russian Orthodox Church keeps self isolating itself from the larger orthodox community. By the way, do you accuse all former Catholics of “bigotry and ignorance”.

[Punished UMN]

Whether women can be priests has nothing to do with restrictions. When we say "Women can't be priests" we don't mean that the church is preventing them, they literally cannot be priests. You wouldn't say "there is no reason to restrict half the population from giving birth", that is not a decision humans are capable of making or breaking restrictions on.

[Tarsonis]

Whether women can be priests has nothing to do with restrictions. When we say "Women can't be priests" we don't mean that the church is preventing them, they literally cannot be priests. You wouldn't say "there is no reason to restrict half the population from giving birth", that is not a decision humans are capable of making or breaking restrictions on.

In all fairness, that example is far more self evident.

[Salus Maior]

That the ROC supports the Russian state is something every Orthodox church does in any state, I'm not sure what to call it and this is probably wrong but it's fairly traditional (small t I'd say) that any Orthodox church pray for and support the state they reside in.

I seem to remember a story of Japanese Orthodox Christians praying for the victory of the Emperor over the Tsar in the Russo-Japanese war, for example.

This is a far cry from the claim of ethnic exclusivity for salvation and you have 0 reason to believe that outside of bigotry and ignorance.

My comment was hyperbole, but The Russian Orthodox Church keeps self isolating itself from the larger orthodox community. By the way, do you accuse all former Catholics of “bigotry and ignorance”.

No, just people who are displaying bigotry and ignorance.

[Prima Scriptura]

My comment was hyperbole, but The Russian Orthodox Church keeps self isolating itself from the larger orthodox community. By the way, do you accuse all former Catholics of “bigotry and ignorance”.

No, just people who are displaying bigotry and ignorance.

Well, my criticism has been levied toward Russian Orthodox church leadership. Not individual Russians or parishioners of the Church. I’ve seen Russian orthodox churches in Minneapolis flying the Ukrainian flag. So, I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that I’m bigoted toward the ROC as a whole.

[Tarsonis]

https://jesusmechachrist.com/

Oh my God,.........I want one.

[Prima Scriptura]

https://jesusmechachrist.com/

Oh my God,.........I want one.

Good Lord!

[Sedgistan]

Well, the very idea seams... absurd. Surreal. Would you do me the kindness to point me at your explanation? What makes your god better than sex? Imagine my position. I am really trying here not to be rude to you, but... damn, man, no sex? Ever? Really? If push came to shove I'd rather have my leg cut off than never to fuck again, there is no polite way of asking this, what the *** is wrong with you?!

You do know that it's pretty neat, right?!

*** DEAT for flaming + history ***
We know who you are, and we are not amused. Given your history, we will be discussing your future on this site.

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

[Tarsonis]

*** DEAT for flaming + history ***
We know who you are, and we are not amused. Given your history, we will be discussing your future on this site.

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

Cool, I'm posting to note that's pathetic, and the Moderation team's willingness to let trolling slide when it's directed at us isn't going unnoticed.

[Mets Hayk]

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

Cool, I'm posting to note that's pathetic, and the Moderation team's willingness to let trolling slide when it's directed at us isn't going unnoticed.

He isn't just a troll...he openly denies the Armenian genocide's existence.

[Sordhau]

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

Cool, I'm posting to note that's pathetic, and the Moderation team's willingness to let trolling slide when it's directed at us isn't going unnoticed.

For once we are in total agreement.

[Lady Mon]

*** DEAT for flaming + history ***
We know who you are, and we are not amused. Given your history, we will be discussing your future on this site.

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

Bruh

[Prima Scriptura]

I am posting to note that following an internal team review, we have reversed this decision, and decided to restore the nation 'The House of Hamid'.

Cool, I'm posting to note that's pathetic, and the Moderation team's willingness to let trolling slide when it's directed at us isn't going unnoticed.

I’ve already accepted that the moderation team has a far-left and anti-Christian bias. When this happens to me, I just add the account to my “foe list”. The Bible says that we are going to be mocked, ridiculed and scored. Rather than getting angry at them, I’m going to turn the other cheek, pray for their souls and focus on being obedient to God. For I’m responsible for my own soul and actions, and not the enteral fate of others.

Because forgiveness is a requirement of my faith, I forgive The House of Hamid for their mockery. However, I will take the advice of our Lord in Matthew 7:6

[The Blaatschapen]

6 doctrines enter the cage, with one knife

The Ecumenical Patriarch leaves alone.

There can be only one.

I didn't know he was Scottish.

[Suriyanakhon]

This doesn't even deserve my wasting the necessary effort to express my contempt.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they wind up saying only ethnic Russians can be saved.

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they wind up saying only ethnic Russians can be saved.

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

The Russian Orthodox Church does a lot of things that don't make any sense tbf. Over the past 10 years or so they've kind of jumped the shark in a lot of ways.

Shame too because while I'm not a Christian I really do like Orthodox Christianity and enjoy learning about it and it's sad to see Kirill and friends damage it in so many ways.

[Prima Scriptura]

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

The Russian Orthodox Church does a lot of things that don't make any sense tbf. Over the past 10 years or so they've kind of jumped the shark in a lot of ways.

Shame too because while I'm not a Christian I really do like Orthodox Christianity and enjoy learning about it and it's sad to see Kirill and friends damage it in so many ways.

My comment was hyperbole. The ROC in Moscow isolating itself, even from members outside of Russia. I was accused of “ignorance and bigotry” by another member of this forum, and that is what I take issue with

[Myrensis]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they wind up saying only ethnic Russians can be saved.

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

I mean, enthusiastically endorsing the invasion of and genocidal war crimes against another Orthodox dominated country, most of whose faithful actually fall under Moscows jurisdiction, because something something the West and gay pride parades, doesn't make any sense either, yet there Kirill sits.

[Prima Scriptura]

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

I mean, enthusiastically endorsing the invasion of and genocidal war crimes against another Orthodox dominated country, most of whose faithful actually fall under Moscows jurisdiction, because something something the West and gay pride parades, doesn't make any sense either, yet there Kirill sits.

It makes sense when one realizes Krill is a racist.

[Sordhau]

That... that doesn't make any sense for them at all to do.

I mean, enthusiastically endorsing the invasion of and genocidal war crimes against another Orthodox dominated country, most of whose faithful actually fall under Moscows jurisdiction, because something something the West and gay pride parades, doesn't make any sense either, yet there Kirill sits.

Kirill is a disgrace to his position. He should be anathemized.

[Salus Maior]

Here's my perception of Kirill:

There is an underlying issue in the fact that the Orthodox clergy, especially high ranking clergy, are expected to support the state they reside in. As far as he supports the Russian state in its war is unsurprising as far as that's concerned. However, given what he's said near the beginning of the war he clearly also believes in the "Greater Russia" which is rooted in Russia's Imperial history. Which, is also unsurprising because a lot of Russian Orthodox believe that, and that has it's roots in the conception that Russia is the new center of the Orthodox world as the "Third Rome". He also appears to believe, given his statements, that the Ukrainians are not a separate people from Russians in a similar way to most "greater Russian" proponents. Whether that's "racist" I'm not really sure considering it doesn't put Ukrainians as a lesser people than Russians, but includes them in the Russian people (albeit without their consent).

So, I don't really see Kirill as any worse than other advocates of the greater Russian ideal. And while it's not good that he supports the Russian state, the fact that he supports one bad thing doesn't mean he's an advocate of all things evil up to and including the farcical idea that "only Russians can have salvation", considering a good number of non-Russian peoples of Russia are in the Church he administers.

Arch, would you say in your estimation that this is a fair understanding?