Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Sordhau]

One the subject of women and the early Church, it's also worth noting that there was another source of authority that existed in the early church that didn't last, that of prophets. I chatted a bit with a friend of mine who is a Catholic Biblical scholar and he noted that prophets were preaching alongside the Apostles (and sometimes to the Apostles as shown in Acts) and many of these people were women. This suggests that, again, there were women did wield authority over men and were respected though in a different capacity to the Apostles and their successors. This again supports my position, that the priesthood is not established as it is because of a bias against female authority.

Granted, the gifts of the spirit ceased and Montanus kind of ruined the position of prophet, but my friend posits that the position of prophet did continue and could be seen as being embodied by the likes of St. Catherine of Siena when she told the Pope to get his butt back to Rome from Avignon.

So if women outside the Church can have authority over men inside the Church, why can women not have authority over men inside the Church? That hardly seems consistent.

[Salus Maior]

One the subject of women and the early Church, it's also worth noting that there was another source of authority that existed in the early church that didn't last, that of prophets. I chatted a bit with a friend of mine who is a Catholic Biblical scholar and he noted that prophets were preaching alongside the Apostles (and sometimes to the Apostles as shown in Acts) and many of these people were women. This suggests that, again, there were women did wield authority over men and were respected though in a different capacity to the Apostles and their successors. This again supports my position, that the priesthood is not established as it is because of a bias against female authority.

Granted, the gifts of the spirit ceased and Montanus kind of ruined the position of prophet, but my friend posits that the position of prophet did continue and could be seen as being embodied by the likes of St. Catherine of Siena when she told the Pope to get his butt back to Rome from Avignon.

So if women outside the Church can have authority over men inside the Church, why can women not have authority over men inside the Church? That hardly seems consistent.

Prophets and Prophetesses were inside the Church, that is my whole point.

[Camelone]

Is it rude to use the title “reverend” instead of “father” when talking to a Catholic Priest?

Rude or not, it's incorrect. "The Reverend" is a style to be used with the person's name, never as a form of address on its own.

I think in colloquialism and in generally informal speech the use of reverend is alright to try and remain respectful while not using the official titles someone has a legitimate problem with. Being correct in the form of address is only really necessary depending on the formality of when you are addressing someone.

[Luminesa]

The Pope’s remarks in Canada so far have been deeply reverent of the traditions and remorseful of the suffering of the First Nations people he’s meeting with. There’s a lot of tears in this stadium. I’ve been watching and hoping that he doesn’t say something insensitive, but Pope Francis once again strikes as a deeply compassionate man who is doing his very best not to brush past the matter but rather to speak directly to the hearts of the people around him.

[Neutraligon]

The Pope’s remarks in Canada so far have been deeply reverent of the traditions and remorseful of the suffering of the First Nations people he’s meeting with. There’s a lot of tears in this stadium. I’ve been watching and hoping that he doesn’t say something insensitive, but Pope Francis once again strikes as a deeply compassionate man who is doing his very best not to brush past the matter but rather to speak directly to the hearts of the people around him.

And has he dor the church done anything besides talk? Maybe compensate first nations individuals?

[Luminesa]

The Pope’s remarks in Canada so far have been deeply reverent of the traditions and remorseful of the suffering of the First Nations people he’s meeting with. There’s a lot of tears in this stadium. I’ve been watching and hoping that he doesn’t say something insensitive, but Pope Francis once again strikes as a deeply compassionate man who is doing his very best not to brush past the matter but rather to speak directly to the hearts of the people around him.

And has he dor the church done anything besides talk? Maybe compensate first nations individuals?

How he is planning to do that I'm not sure. I simply am watching the broadcast and reporting on what I see. I do agree that significant compensation needs to be given. That also falls on the Church of Canada to follow the Holy Father's example and to push for this reconciliation, though of course that does not take responsibility from the Holy Father himself.

[Prima Scriptura]

Rude or not, it's incorrect. "The Reverend" is a style to be used with the person's name, never as a form of address on its own.

I think in colloquialism and in generally informal speech the use of reverend is alright to try and remain respectful while not using the official titles someone has a legitimate problem with. Being correct in the form of address is only really necessary depending on the formality of when you are addressing someone.

I don’t feel comfortable calling other men “father”, with the exception of the first person of the Trinity or my biological father.

[Alternate Garza]

The Pope’s remarks in Canada so far have been deeply reverent of the traditions and remorseful of the suffering of the First Nations people he’s meeting with. There’s a lot of tears in this stadium. I’ve been watching and hoping that he doesn’t say something insensitive, but Pope Francis once again strikes as a deeply compassionate man who is doing his very best not to brush past the matter but rather to speak directly to the hearts of the people around him.

And has he dor the church done anything besides talk? Maybe compensate first nations individuals?

I like this Pope a lot more than most previous Popes, but yeah, he needs a little less talk, a lot more action.

[Diarcesia]

And has he dor the church done anything besides talk? Maybe compensate first nations individuals?

I like this Pope a lot more than most previous Popes, but yeah, he needs a little less talk, a lot more action.

While true, how much practical sway does he have to make things happen? There's resistance that he can't ignore if he makes a move.

[Sordhau]

So if women outside the Church can have authority over men inside the Church, why can women not have authority over men inside the Church? That hardly seems consistent.

Prophets and Prophetesses were inside the Church, that is my whole point.

Poor phrasing on my part. Let me try again:

If women who aren't clergy can have authority over men who are why is the clergy exclusive to men? Clearly there is no issue with women having authority over men.

[Tarsonis]

Prophets and Prophetesses were inside the Church, that is my whole point.

Poor phrasing on my part. Let me try again:

If women who aren't clergy can have authority over men who are why is the clergy exclusive to men? Clearly there is no issue with women having authority over men.

The Eucharist. During the Mass the Priest is stands in persona Christi.

[Old Tyrannia]

Correct, and depending on their actual "rank", you might qualify to say something like "The Most Reverend Bishop So and So"

Alternatively, one could use “Your Excellency” in addressing bishops. Not sure about “Your Grace,” though I suspect it to be Anglican use.

"Your Grace" is the customary form of spoken address for archbishops in both the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church in the United Kingdom. Other bishops are customarily addressed as "my lord." In Ireland, all Roman Catholic bishops- and I assume all bishops of the Anglican Church of Ireland- are addressed as "Your Grace."

[Salus Maior]

Prophets and Prophetesses were inside the Church, that is my whole point.

Poor phrasing on my part. Let me try again:

If women who aren't clergy can have authority over men who are why is the clergy exclusive to men? Clearly there is no issue with women having authority over men.

I've already said why more than once. You just choose to reject the answers.

[Salus Maior]

The Pope’s remarks in Canada so far have been deeply reverent of the traditions and remorseful of the suffering of the First Nations people he’s meeting with. There’s a lot of tears in this stadium. I’ve been watching and hoping that he doesn’t say something insensitive, but Pope Francis once again strikes as a deeply compassionate man who is doing his very best not to brush past the matter but rather to speak directly to the hearts of the people around him.

That's very good of him.

[Salus Maior]

I think in colloquialism and in generally informal speech the use of reverend is alright to try and remain respectful while not using the official titles someone has a legitimate problem with. Being correct in the form of address is only really necessary depending on the formality of when you are addressing someone.

I don’t feel comfortable calling other men “father”, with the exception of the first person of the Trinity or my biological father.

I was too, but I got used to it.

I mean, ultimately titles like that aren't really about you. It's about giving due respect to another person's position.

[Prima Scriptura]

I don’t feel comfortable calling other men “father”, with the exception of the first person of the Trinity or my biological father.

I was too, but I got used to it.

I mean, ultimately titles like that aren't really about you. It's about giving due respect to another person's position.

The difference is that I’m not a Catholic and don’t recognize their position. If they are not comfortable with me using “reverend”, then I simply won’t address them. My intention is not to be disrespectful, my intention is to uphold what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9

[Salus Maior]

I was too, but I got used to it.

I mean, ultimately titles like that aren't really about you. It's about giving due respect to another person's position.

The difference is that I’m not a Catholic and don’t recognize their position. If they are not comfortable with me using “reverend”, then I simply won’t address them. My intention is not to be disrespectful, my intention is to uphold what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9

I call Protestant Pastors "Pastor" or whatever is honoring to them despite my disagreements with them. It's about respect, not affirmation of everything they believe about themselves or from their group.

And besides, if you're going to take what Jesus said literally then you can't call anyone father. He said "call no man father" not "don't call priests father".

[Prima Scriptura]

The difference is that I’m not a Catholic and don’t recognize their position. If they are not comfortable with me using “reverend”, then I simply won’t address them. My intention is not to be disrespectful, my intention is to uphold what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9

I call Protestant Pastors "Pastor" or whatever is honoring to them despite my disagreements with them. It's about respect, not affirmation of everything they believe about themselves or from their group.

And besides, if you're going to take what Jesus said literally then you can't call anyone father. He said "call no man father" not "don't call priests father".

The Bible doesn’t say “call no man Pastor”. Priests are still men, even with if they allegedly have special spiritual status.

[Salus Maior]

I call Protestant Pastors "Pastor" or whatever is honoring to them despite my disagreements with them. It's about respect, not affirmation of everything they believe about themselves or from their group.

And besides, if you're going to take what Jesus said literally then you can't call anyone father. He said "call no man father" not "don't call priests father".

The Bible doesn’t say “call no man Pastor”. Priests are still men, even with if they allegedly have special spiritual status.

What do you call your biological father then? Oh wait, you've already said you call him "father", so clearly you're in violation of the Bible. Or maybe that's not what He meant by that.

And nobody thinks that priests aren't men aside from Protestants who don't understand the priesthood. They have a vocation to serve the Church, just as people have other vocations as well. There's nothing magical about priests or "specially spiritual" about priests because that's not how it works.

[Prima Scriptura]

The Bible doesn’t say “call no man Pastor”. Priests are still men, even with if they allegedly have special spiritual status.

What do you call your biological father then? Oh wait, you've already said you call him "father", so clearly you're in violation of the Bible. Or maybe that's not what He meant by that.

And nobody thinks that priests aren't men aside from Protestants who don't understand the priesthood. They have a vocation to serve the Church, just as people have other vocations as well. There's nothing magical about priests or "specially spiritual" about priests because that's not how it works.

If they don’t have special spiritual status, why do they have alleged powers to such as absolving sins and consecrating the eucharist. If these powers aren’t available to the laity but limited to certain clergy, how can one view them as not having special spiritual status

[Salus Maior]

What do you call your biological father then? Oh wait, you've already said you call him "father", so clearly you're in violation of the Bible. Or maybe that's not what He meant by that.

And nobody thinks that priests aren't men aside from Protestants who don't understand the priesthood. They have a vocation to serve the Church, just as people have other vocations as well. There's nothing magical about priests or "specially spiritual" about priests because that's not how it works.

If they don’t have special spiritual status, why do they have alleged powers to such as absolving sins and consecrating the eucharist. If these powers aren’t available to the laity but limited to certain clergy, how can one view them as not having special spiritual status

It's not them doing it, it's Christ doing it. There is nothing about the quality of a priest that makes those things happen, aside from the fact that they're consecrated to the role (as Christ consecrated the Apostles to do it).

[Tarsonis]

I was too, but I got used to it.

I mean, ultimately titles like that aren't really about you. It's about giving due respect to another person's position.

The difference is that I’m not a Catholic and don’t recognize their position. If they are not comfortable with me using “reverend”, then I simply won’t address them. My intention is not to be disrespectful, my intention is to uphold what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9

1 Corinthians 4:15 "15 For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Acts 7:1 Then the high priest asked him, “Are these things so?” 2 And Stephen replied:

Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

Acts 22:1 “Brothers and fathers, listen to the defense that I now make before you.”



The use of "Father" to address priests is a tradition dating back to the time of the Apostles. So unless you're gonna assert that the Apostles violated Christ's commandments in doing so, then more likely I think you misunderstand Matthew 23

[Alternate Garza]

I was too, but I got used to it.

I mean, ultimately titles like that aren't really about you. It's about giving due respect to another person's position.

The difference is that I’m not a Catholic and don’t recognize their position. If they are not comfortable with me using “reverend”, then I simply won’t address them. My intention is not to be disrespectful, my intention is to uphold what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9

I know of at least one Protestant pastor who felt as you did years ago, but by the time that he became a hospital chaplain, he changed his tune. And rightly so.

[Camelone]

I think in colloquialism and in generally informal speech the use of reverend is alright to try and remain respectful while not using the official titles someone has a legitimate problem with. Being correct in the form of address is only really necessary depending on the formality of when you are addressing someone.

I don’t feel comfortable calling other men “father”, with the exception of the first person of the Trinity or my biological father.

That’s understandable. I grew up Catholic so it’s not the biggest thing in the world to me as it has the connotation of a formality instead of a serious thing. Now I use father, reverend, pastor, etc. to point out someone’s general churchmanship in a quick manner.

[Tarsonis]

I don’t feel comfortable calling other men “father”, with the exception of the first person of the Trinity or my biological father.

That’s understandable. I grew up Catholic so it’s not the biggest thing in the world to me as it has the connotation of a formality instead of a serious thing. Now I use father, reverend, pastor, etc. to point out someone’s general churchmanship in a quick manner.

"Eh Padre!"