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Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
268
34%
Eastern Orthodox
68
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
75
9%
Anglican/Episcopalian
41
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
76
10%
Methodist
21
3%
Baptist
65
8%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
50
6%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
31
4%
Other Christian
100
13%
 
Total votes : 795

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:35 am

Fatimida wrote:
That's more or less the case, though I generally recommend sticking to the commonly used terminology with regards to the trinity as the nuances of language can lead to misunderstandings when one attempts to convey the doctrine in different words. One problem we have as Christians is that much of our theology was initially defined and formally promulgated in the Greek language, using terms whose precise meanings lack direct English equivalents, meaning that some of the nuances of things like trinitarian and Christological theology are somewhat lost in translation.

How is it possible (and why is it necessary) for God to exist in three different forms?

How is it possible for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and eternal being to exist in the first place? You are asking questions far above my, or anyone else's, paygrade. And as to why it is necessary, it's necessary because it's the fundamental nature of God. Why is it necessary that matter exerts a gravitational attraction on other matter? It's the fundamental nature of things. The difference is that the effects of gravity are observable in day-to-day life and so its presence is taken for granted by humans, so we struggle to imagine a universe in which it doesn't exist. The trinity is no less fundamental to the nature of God than gravity is to the nature of matter, but the existence of the trinity is only knowable through divine revelation. Consequently we are not naturally conscious of its fundamentality, and are able to imagine a version of God that isn't trinitarian, though that imagined version of God is as inaccurate as the idea of the night sky as a solid firmament is.
Also, why would God allow His word to be corrupted by human language?

This is an extremely odd question to hear from a Muslim given that Muslims are taught to read Arabic specifically so that they can study scripture in the original language. Whenever you translate something from one language to another, you risk losing some of the nuances of the original text. And if even the meaning of the Quran, which is supposedly the direct word of God, can be distorted and lose nuance in the process of translation, why shouldn't the Bible- which is divinely inspired, but emphatically not regarded as the direct word of God dictated to the authors- or the theological writings of the early church not be subject to the same issues?
"It's a mystery none of us can understand" is not an refutation to either.

Why not? Does it not stand to reason that God would be beyond the comprehension of humanity? Why would you expect to be able to understand His nature?
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Postby Luminesa » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:49 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:

People's frustration with the church's response to the recent revelations over residential schools in Canada is perfectly understandable, but it's regrettable that anyone would resort to actions like this that primarily harm lay Catholics within their own communities. From the article it doesn't sound like the fire being reported has been confirmed to be intentional yet, but in light of the other arson attacks on churches in recent days it seems quite likely.

I fear there are bad actors burning down churches looking to put the blame on FN people. We can only pray for peace. The situation is horrifying all around, and Canadian clergy need to be focused on healing and on ministry. We must continue to pray to God for His mercy and forgiveness for all of our sins. This feels very vanilla, but there’s not much else that can properly be said, I think.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:55 am

Fatimida wrote:Also, why would God allow His word to be corrupted by human language?


Doesn't Islam believe that God's word has been corrupted several times before Muhammad?
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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:56 pm

Speaking of translations, I have an oddly specific question.

I have two different Bible translations at home. One is the New King James Version, the other is the Holman Christian Standard Bible. I was reading tonight and there was a difference that really threw me regarding a verse: Exodus 25:5. In the NKJV, one of the offerings listed is badger skin, but in the HCSB, "badger" is replaced by "manatee." It was a really bizarre difference that didn't make any sense to me, so I was wondering if anyone here can clarify it for me. I'm certain that "badger" is the correct term, as I doubt the Israelites were anywhere near manatee habitats.

So anyway, could it be a translation error?

EDIT: So I Googled it, and "manatee" might actually be the correct one? I'm confused.
Last edited by Xmara on Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:42 pm

Xmara wrote:Speaking of translations, I have an oddly specific question.

I have two different Bible translations at home. One is the New King James Version, the other is the Holman Christian Standard Bible. I was reading tonight and there was a difference that really threw me regarding a verse: Exodus 25:5. In the NKJV, one of the offerings listed is badger skin, but in the HCSB, "badger" is replaced by "manatee." It was a really bizarre difference that didn't make any sense to me, so I was wondering if anyone here can clarify it for me. I'm certain that "badger" is the correct term, as I doubt the Israelites were anywhere near manatee habitats.

So anyway, could it be a translation error?

EDIT: So I Googled it, and "manatee" might actually be the correct one? I'm confused.

There is an African manatee, so it could be just some expensive trade good

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:45 pm

Xmara wrote:Speaking of translations, I have an oddly specific question.

I have two different Bible translations at home. One is the New King James Version, the other is the Holman Christian Standard Bible. I was reading tonight and there was a difference that really threw me regarding a verse: Exodus 25:5. In the NKJV, one of the offerings listed is badger skin, but in the HCSB, "badger" is replaced by "manatee." It was a really bizarre difference that didn't make any sense to me, so I was wondering if anyone here can clarify it for me. I'm certain that "badger" is the correct term, as I doubt the Israelites were anywhere near manatee habitats.

So anyway, could it be a translation error?

EDIT: So I Googled it, and "manatee" might actually be the correct one? I'm confused.


the meaning of תַּחַשׁ is unknown. It's archaic and likely a foreign derivative. We know it's an animal or possibly an adjective like "fine" because it's paired with another word meaning skin. Translators try to make an informed guess, but nobody really knows for sure.

As an aside, I wouldn't rely too heavily on the Holman translation. Holman Press are SBC Evangelicals, and YECs with an extreme literalist bent. They requires their translators to subscribe to a particular philosophy. So you're not such getting a true translation as you are getting their truth.

The NKJV is a solid translation.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:10 pm

Muzehnaya wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

So each of them are actually God itself, but they represent God in different forms, which all simultaneously exist with one another?


They don’t “represent God”, where one is, so is the fullness of the Godhead. Each person of the trinity is inseparable in unity from the other persons of the Godhead.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:13 pm

Muzehnaya wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:The term "incarnation" is misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the persons of the Holy Trinity. Other than that you are basically correct. "Jesus" was the name given to God the Son during his time on Earth as a human being. The exact nature of the trinity is generally regarded as being beyond the scope of human understanding.

So each of them are actually God itself, but they represent God in different forms, which all simultaneously exist with one another?

Maybe this could clear things up?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:13 pm

https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

a humorist take on the Trinity for our visiting muslim brethren
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:14 pm

Tarsonis wrote:https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

a humorist take on the Trinity for our visiting muslim brethren

Ninja'd! Finally!
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:15 pm

Hispida wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

a humorist take on the Trinity for our visiting muslim brethren

Ninja'd! Finally!


May your marinara never cling to your pasta.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:17 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Hispida wrote:Ninja'd! Finally!


May your marina never cling to your pasta.

If you mean "marinara," then you deserve Hell for putting marinara on pasta.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 pm

Hispida wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
May your marina never cling to your pasta.

If you mean "marinara," then you deserve Hell for putting marinara on pasta.

Damn auto correct.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:31 pm

Muzehnaya wrote:So, I recently read this article in an attempt to better understand the concept of the Trinity. I'm still somewhat confused, but as far as I can tell, the idea of it is that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all incarnations of the same God, and they all exist simultaneously. Would that be the correct understanding according to mainstream Christian thought?


It would be Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Not Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. Each of the three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is a person, and each person is of the same essence - meaning they are all equally 'of' the same "stuff". Each person is equally God. Not part of God. Because each one is 'of' the same essence as the others, they are also equally called God each, and likewise, together, are called God. Each of the persons is of one equal will (or mind), and each person of the trinity has something unique to do, but that uniqueness is totally united together within this will. The Father, called so because he eternally begets (fathers) the Son (Jesus). The Son, because He is begotten (fathered) from the Father, and the Holy Spirit, who is 'spirated' (breathed) from the Father. This looks like the Father is alone in power, but where the Father is, so Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, must also be, the Father can never 'exist' without the others. As what is a Father without a Son?

Edited this multiple times to karate chop those heresies.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:50 pm

UK Methodist church votes to allow same-sex marriage (254-46)

The Methodist Church in the U.K. will allow same-sex marriages for the first time, after delegates voted overwhelmingly to change its definition of matrimony. Methodists are expected to start conducting same sex marriages later this year.

For British Methodists, the previous definition of marriage was the union of a man and a woman, which left out most LGBTQ worshippers. On Wednesday, delegates to the Methodist Conference voted 254 to 46 to endorse a definition that says marriage is “a lifelong union in body, mind and spirit of two people who freely enter into it.” At the same time, the delegates sought to appease members and clergy who believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, by affirming that definition as well. In effect, the Methodist Church now has dual definitions of marriage – the previous definition and the new broader one.

According to a resolution adopted this week about marriage: “Within the Methodist Church this is understood in two ways: that marriage can only be between a man and a woman; that marriage can be between any two people. The Methodist Church affirms both understandings and makes provision in its Standing Orders for them.”

Under a “Freedom of Conscience” clause, no minister or congregant will be required to conduct or otherwise participate in a marriage service for a same-sex couple “should it be contrary to the dictates of his or her conscience to do so.”
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:51 pm

Kowani wrote:[url=https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/u-k-methodist-church-allows-sex-marriages-historic-vote/]UK Methodist church votes to allow same-sex marriage (254-46)

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:09 am

Kowani wrote:UK Methodist church votes to allow same-sex marriage (254-46)

The Methodist Church in the U.K. will allow same-sex marriages for the first time, after delegates voted overwhelmingly to change its definition of matrimony. Methodists are expected to start conducting same sex marriages later this year.

For British Methodists, the previous definition of marriage was the union of a man and a woman, which left out most LGBTQ worshippers. On Wednesday, delegates to the Methodist Conference voted 254 to 46 to endorse a definition that says marriage is “a lifelong union in body, mind and spirit of two people who freely enter into it.” At the same time, the delegates sought to appease members and clergy who believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, by affirming that definition as well. In effect, the Methodist Church now has dual definitions of marriage – the previous definition and the new broader one.

According to a resolution adopted this week about marriage: “Within the Methodist Church this is understood in two ways: that marriage can only be between a man and a woman; that marriage can be between any two people. The Methodist Church affirms both understandings and makes provision in its Standing Orders for them.”

Under a “Freedom of Conscience” clause, no minister or congregant will be required to conduct or otherwise participate in a marriage service for a same-sex couple “should it be contrary to the dictates of his or her conscience to do so.”


Even though I support the outcome, I dislike the method here. Truth is Truth. Doctrine shouldn't be up to majority vote like this, and it definitely shouldn't embrace post-modernist ideas of relative truth.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:15 am

Tarsonis wrote:Even though I support the outcome, I dislike the method here. Truth is Truth. Doctrine shouldn't be up to majority vote like this, and it definitely shouldn't embrace post-modernist ideas of relative truth.


Well, that's presumably one of the reasons why the people who took that doctrinal vote are Methodists, and those of us who belong to churches with different ways of establishing doctrine aren't.

On that basis I don't think there's too much point in Catholics and Orthodox getting worked up about how Methodists establish their doctrine since most of them aren't too bothered about what we think anyway; unless, perhaps, they're inviting us over for polite ecumenical dialogue over a cup of tea and some scones.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:28 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Xmara wrote:Speaking of translations, I have an oddly specific question.

I have two different Bible translations at home. One is the New King James Version, the other is the Holman Christian Standard Bible. I was reading tonight and there was a difference that really threw me regarding a verse: Exodus 25:5. In the NKJV, one of the offerings listed is badger skin, but in the HCSB, "badger" is replaced by "manatee." It was a really bizarre difference that didn't make any sense to me, so I was wondering if anyone here can clarify it for me. I'm certain that "badger" is the correct term, as I doubt the Israelites were anywhere near manatee habitats.

So anyway, could it be a translation error?

EDIT: So I Googled it, and "manatee" might actually be the correct one? I'm confused.

There is an African manatee, so it could be just some expensive trade good


There's an extensive population of dugongs - alongside three species of manatees, one of the four extent species of the order Sirenia - in the Red Sea, and a smaller one that was presumably historically larger in the Persian Gulf, so it's not completely insane if someone's a bit confused about their sea cow species.

That said, why would anyone take the Holman Christian Standard Bible seriously anyway?

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:11 am

Kowani wrote:UK Methodist church votes to allow same-sex marriage (254-46)

The Methodist Church in the U.K. will allow same-sex marriages for the first time, after delegates voted overwhelmingly to change its definition of matrimony. Methodists are expected to start conducting same sex marriages later this year.

For British Methodists, the previous definition of marriage was the union of a man and a woman, which left out most LGBTQ worshippers. On Wednesday, delegates to the Methodist Conference voted 254 to 46 to endorse a definition that says marriage is “a lifelong union in body, mind and spirit of two people who freely enter into it.” At the same time, the delegates sought to appease members and clergy who believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, by affirming that definition as well. In effect, the Methodist Church now has dual definitions of marriage – the previous definition and the new broader one.

According to a resolution adopted this week about marriage: “Within the Methodist Church this is understood in two ways: that marriage can only be between a man and a woman; that marriage can be between any two people. The Methodist Church affirms both understandings and makes provision in its Standing Orders for them.”

Under a “Freedom of Conscience” clause, no minister or congregant will be required to conduct or otherwise participate in a marriage service for a same-sex couple “should it be contrary to the dictates of his or her conscience to do so.”


I feel like this is an example of "Have your cake and eat it". This would still piss off "marriage is between a man and a woman", because now the Methodist Church does, somewhere, same-sex marriages. This would also still piss off "Marriage is between two people", because the Methodist Church itself has given up on defining, and regulating marriage as a whole, and has left that to the conscience of individual congregations. I feel like a Church should have a universal definition, if we can't define marriage, what can the Church define?
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:12 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Even though I support the outcome, I dislike the method here. Truth is Truth. Doctrine shouldn't be up to majority vote like this, and it definitely shouldn't embrace post-modernist ideas of relative truth.


On that basis I don't think there's too much point in Catholics and Orthodox getting worked up about how Methodists establish their doctrine since most of them aren't too bothered about what we think anyway; unless, perhaps, they're inviting us over for polite ecumenical dialogue over a cup of tea and some scones.


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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:27 am

Lower Nubia wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
On that basis I don't think there's too much point in Catholics and Orthodox getting worked up about how Methodists establish their doctrine since most of them aren't too bothered about what we think anyway; unless, perhaps, they're inviting us over for polite ecumenical dialogue over a cup of tea and some scones.


The British version of the 30 years war.


Very similar to the Swiss version, except with less cheese fondue.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Xmara
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Posts: 5148
Founded: Mar 31, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Xmara » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:28 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:There is an African manatee, so it could be just some expensive trade good


There's an extensive population of dugongs - alongside three species of manatees, one of the four extent species of the order Sirenia - in the Red Sea, and a smaller one that was presumably historically larger in the Persian Gulf, so it's not completely insane if someone's a bit confused about their sea cow species.

That said, why would anyone take the Holman Christian Standard Bible seriously anyway?

It was a gift and I really didn’t know anything about it. I’ve always used the NKJV.
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Tarsonis
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27271
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:35 am

Xmara wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
There's an extensive population of dugongs - alongside three species of manatees, one of the four extent species of the order Sirenia - in the Red Sea, and a smaller one that was presumably historically larger in the Persian Gulf, so it's not completely insane if someone's a bit confused about their sea cow species.

That said, why would anyone take the Holman Christian Standard Bible seriously anyway?

It was a gift and I really didn’t know anything about it. I’ve always used the NKJV.


I always recommend the NRSV, but that's more a personal preference. The NKJV is a solid translation, with a more modern dialect. It doesn't really address some of the common complaints about the KJV, but it's a solid translation to work with.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Tarsonis
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27271
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:39 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
The British version of the 30 years war.


Very similar to the Swiss version, except with less cheese fondue.


If there's a war without fondue, what even is the point?
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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