Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Australian rePublic]

What do you guys make of those Christian preachers who think that the USA is the new Israel, deserving of more of God's attention than every other country in the world? I think it's ridiculous for a multitude of reasons:

1. Why the USA? Out of all countries in the world, why the USA? How did you come to that specific conclusion? What about Canada? Or Russia? Or Greece? Or Italy? Or... how the fudge did you come to the conclusion that the USA was special and exalted of all countries? I mean, you could ask, why Israel, but the answer is clear, the Bible specifically says that it's from the seed of Abraham, making it clear that Israel was special and exalted above all nations, but how did they arbitrarily pick the USA?
2. They do realise that being the special l, exalted nation gives you special responsibilities, not special privileges. I mean, compare what Jews believe they're obligated to do compared to the Gentiles (Laws of Moses vs Laws of Noah). What special responsibilties do these people think that the USA has?
3. It's even more insane when you consider that the USA didn't exist till 1700 years or so after Jesus
4. This contradicts the Pentecost and everything associated with

[Diarcesia]

What do you guys make of those Christian preachers who think that the USA is the new Israel, deserving of more of God's attention than every other country in the world? I think it's ridiculous for a multitude of reasons:

1. Why the USA? Out of all countries in the world, why the USA? How did you come to that specific conclusion? What about Canada? Or Russia? Or Greece? Or Italy? Or... how the fudge did you come to the conclusion that the USA was special and exalted of all countries? I mean, you could ask, why Israel, but the answer is clear, the Bible specifically says that it's from the seed of Abraham, making it clear that Israel was special and exalted above all nations, but how did they arbitrarily pick the USA?
2. They do realise that being the special l, exalted nation gives you special responsibilities, not special privileges. I mean, compare what Jews believe they're obligated to do compared to the Gentiles (Laws of Moses vs Laws of Noah). What special responsibilties do these people think that the USA has?
3. It's even more insane when you consider that the USA didn't exist till 1700 years or so after Jesus
4. This contradicts the Pentecost and everything associated with

Why the USA? Because they were born there and want to feel special. To put it in another way, snowflakes.

[Prima Scriptura]

Do you consider JWs and Mormons to be Christian? JWs are a bit of a complicated one, but Mormons, absolutely not. Mormons are Christian in the way that Christians are Jews. If you wanna get real technical about it, sure, but in a realistic, theological sense, they're very different faiths

I have to concur with Sordhau. But I strongly disagree that Mormons are an offshoot of Christianity. They believe they themselves can become God, so they are not monotheistic. They believe God is a physical man who that practices polygamy

[Prima Scriptura]

What do you guys make of those Christian preachers who think that the USA is the new Israel, deserving of more of God's attention than every other country in the world? I think it's ridiculous for a multitude of reasons:

1. Why the USA? Out of all countries in the world, why the USA? How did you come to that specific conclusion? What about Canada? Or Russia? Or Greece? Or Italy? Or... how the fudge did you come to the conclusion that the USA was special and exalted of all countries? I mean, you could ask, why Israel, but the answer is clear, the Bible specifically says that it's from the seed of Abraham, making it clear that Israel was special and exalted above all nations, but how did they arbitrarily pick the USA?
2. They do realise that being the special l, exalted nation gives you special responsibilities, not special privileges. I mean, compare what Jews believe they're obligated to do compared to the Gentiles (Laws of Moses vs Laws of Noah). What special responsibilties do these people think that the USA has?
3. It's even more insane when you consider that the USA didn't exist till 1700 years or so after Jesus
4. This contradicts the Pentecost and everything associated with

Brother, it’s simply idolatry. (Ethno)Nationalism to the point that they make up things that have no basis in Scripture(nor holy traditions of RCs and EOs)

[Sundiata]

The United States is changing for the better thanks to the mostly Catholic Supreme Court. We're winning, just remember to win quietly. Don't brag. Don't argue.

Simply do the will of Our Father.

The government is’t supposed to be religious

No, it is.

[HISPIDA]

The government is’t supposed to be religious

No, it is.

show me where it says that.

[Sordhau]

What do you guys make of those Christian preachers who think that the USA is the new Israel, deserving of more of God's attention than every other country in the world? I think it's ridiculous for a multitude of reasons:

1. Why the USA? Out of all countries in the world, why the USA? How did you come to that specific conclusion? What about Canada? Or Russia? Or Greece? Or Italy? Or... how the fudge did you come to the conclusion that the USA was special and exalted of all countries? I mean, you could ask, why Israel, but the answer is clear, the Bible specifically says that it's from the seed of Abraham, making it clear that Israel was special and exalted above all nations, but how did they arbitrarily pick the USA?
2. They do realise that being the special l, exalted nation gives you special responsibilities, not special privileges. I mean, compare what Jews believe they're obligated to do compared to the Gentiles (Laws of Moses vs Laws of Noah). What special responsibilties do these people think that the USA has?
3. It's even more insane when you consider that the USA didn't exist till 1700 years or so after Jesus
4. This contradicts the Pentecost and everything associated with

The US cannot be the new Israel because the Church is the new Israel. This has been the standard for 2,000 years.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Do you consider JWs and Mormons to be Christian? JWs are a bit of a complicated one, but Mormons, absolutely not. Mormons are Christian in the way that Christians are Jews. If you wanna get real technical about it, sure, but in a realistic, theological sense, they're very different faiths

I do not consider either group to be Christian in any sense of the word.

This. Mormons especially because in the words of Smith himself, they believe in at least three distinct gods.

[Tarsonis]

No, it is.

show me where it says that.

there's no arguing with Sundiata, he's fully convinced in the righteousness of his own folly. He will happily continue his works, poisoning and decaying the church from within as he seeks the to convert people via the sword. He cares not for the health nor the souls of his fellow man, seeks only to force them to conform to his twisted vision, and will destroy any who does not with a smile on his face. He stopped walking the Christian path a long time ago, and there really is no hope for him, because he doesn't even know it. He is one of the many wolves in sheep's clothing Christ warned us about.

[Suriyanakhon]

Do you consider JWs and Mormons to be Christian? JWs are a bit of a complicated one, but Mormons, absolutely not. Mormons are Christian in the way that Christians are Jews. If you wanna get real technical about it, sure, but in a realistic, theological sense, they're very different faiths

I'd consider them to be highly divergent sects of Christianity that arose out of historic circumstances, but I'd understand if their fellow Christians didn't consider them to be.

[Prima Scriptura]

Did the Catholic Church endorse religious freedom before the Second Vatican Council? Like did thru have any objection to the policy of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, or any other catholic majority nation granting religious freedom( at least to other Christians)

[Salus Maior]

The United States is changing for the better thanks to the mostly Catholic Supreme Court. We're winning, just remember to win quietly. Don't brag. Don't argue.

Simply do the will of Our Father.

The government is’t supposed to be religious

Why not?

[Diarcesia]

The government is’t supposed to be religious

Why not?

Remember when Nebuchadnezzar commanded everyone in Babylon to worship him as a god?

[Salus Maior]

Did the Catholic Church endorse religious freedom before the Second Vatican Council? Like did thru have any objection to the policy of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, or any other catholic majority nation granting religious freedom( at least to other Christians)

No idea, but from what I understand the Crown was Catholic.

[Prima Scriptura]

The government is’t supposed to be religious

Why not?

Because institutional state churches and governments typically have corrupt relationships.

[Salus Maior]

Why not?

Remember when Nebuchadnezzar commanded everyone in Babylon to worship him as a god?

Which is completely irrelevant to the topic. Unless I suppose the religion in question is a god-king but those haven't exactly been popular for quite some time, and certainly isn't representative of all governments with a state religion.

[Senkaku]

The government is’t supposed to be religious

Why not?

You don’t want the church to run the state for the same reason you don’t want the military to do it: they’re institutions that have been built for distinct purposes, and attempting to organize the state on their own lines usually just leads to both them and the state becoming corrupt and ill-functioning.

[Diarcesia]

Remember when Nebuchadnezzar commanded everyone in Babylon to worship him as a god?

Which is completely irrelevant to the topic. Unless I suppose the religion in question is a god-king but those haven't exactly been popular for quite some time, and certainly isn't representative of all governments with a state religion.

I'm saying that assertions in this thread that "governments must be religious" is code for "governments must be Christian". If the state religion is different, those same people will campaign (in public) for secularism, I'm sure of it.

[Salus Maior]

Why not?

Because institutional state churches and governments typically have corrupt relationships.

Not any more so than they manage on their own, separately. As I see it.

Besides, any and every Evangelical who suggests the law conform to some sort of Christian morality is establishing a relationship to the secular state. Whether that's gay marriage, abortion, Christian social teaching, etc.

[Salus Maior]

Which is completely irrelevant to the topic. Unless I suppose the religion in question is a god-king but those haven't exactly been popular for quite some time, and certainly isn't representative of all governments with a state religion.

I'm saying that assertions in this thread that "governments must be religious" is code for "governments must be Christian". If the state religion is different, those same people will campaign (in public) for secularism, I'm sure of it.

Well yes, I'm not advocating for a generally religious government. I'm advocating and fully believe in establishing a Catholic one where possible.

[The Reformed American Republic]

The government is’t supposed to be religious

Why not?

In the United States, churches tend to be corrupt and a corrupted form of Christianity has been injected into the American state. I doubt other attempts at desecularization would end up much better.

Terrible people use religion to justify their misdeeds.

[Diarcesia]

I'm saying that assertions in this thread that "governments must be religious" is code for "governments must be Christian". If the state religion is different, those same people will campaign (in public) for secularism, I'm sure of it.

Well yes, I'm not advocating for a generally religious government. I'm advocating and fully believe in establishing a Catholic one where possible.

*confused stare*

[Salus Maior]

Why not?

You don’t want the church to run the state for the same reason you don’t want the military to do it: they’re institutions that have been built for distinct purposes, and attempting to organize the state on their own lines usually just leads to both them and the state becoming corrupt and ill-functioning.

I'm not asking for a theocracy, where priests are legislators. What I'm preferring is a constitution based on Christian principles, run by secular, layman legislators.

[Diarcesia]

You don’t want the church to run the state for the same reason you don’t want the military to do it: they’re institutions that have been built for distinct purposes, and attempting to organize the state on their own lines usually just leads to both them and the state becoming corrupt and ill-functioning.

I'm not asking for a theocracy, where priests are legislators. What I'm preferring is a constitution based on Christian principles, run by secular, layman legislators.

Theonomy. Might as well be the same thing. So, Saudi Arabia or Taliban Afghanistan but Christian?

[Salus Maior]

Well yes, I'm not advocating for a generally religious government. I'm advocating and fully believe in establishing a Catholic one where possible.

*confused stare*

Are you aware of what thread you're in?