Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Punished UMN]

...no they're not
"criticism against" "condemn" and "gossip" are not synonyms
you're inventing an argument out of cloth

What do you think I mean? Let's work together and fix this misconception.

"criticism" and "condemnation" aren't interchangeable. Since you're not a native English speaker, it makes sense that the dichotomy might be lost. You cannot be against someone's actions without criticizing a person.

[Sundiata]

"criticism" and "condemnation" aren't interchangeable. Since you're not a native English speaker, it makes sense that the dichotomy might be lost.

Ha!

You cannot be against someone's actions without criticizing a person.

You absolutely can criticize someone's actions without negatively criticizing who they are, which would be a criticism against them. Or in other words, a judgement against them.

[Punished UMN]

"criticism" and "condemnation" aren't interchangeable. Since you're not a native English speaker, it makes sense that the dichotomy might be lost.

Ha!

You cannot be against someone's actions without criticizing a person.

You absolutely can criticize someone's actions without negatively criticizing who they are, which would be a criticism against them or in other words, a judgement against them.

No, you can't. Again, this is just the way the language works. If I were to say that you did something wrong, that would be criticism of you.

[Lady Victory]

So you support contraceptives, then?

No. The Catholic Church teaches that contraception and abortion are sinful. Contraception because it deviates the purpose of sex, an act to be shared in the intimate sacrament of marriage between a husband and wife.

If you want to prevent abortions then the only effective means of doing so is teaching people how to have safe sex and to use contraceptives if they don't intend to procreate. So you seem opposed to that idea, you clearly aren't interested in actually combating abortions effectively and are under the delusion that banning things prevents them from happening - which both the War on Drugs and Prohibition proved don't work.

Let me spell out for you what's going to happen in your fantasy world where abortion is outlawed (it never will be, btw): women will seek abortions from back-alley "clinics" of unprofessional, amateur "doctors" who don't know what the fuck their doing performing dangerous operations without the proper tools and training to do so leading to botched abortions that can permanently damage the patient or even result in death.

That's not a "what if", either. This is how it happened before abortion was legal and it's how it would happen if it was ever made illegal (which, again, it won't be) because making things illegal does not stop them from happening and, in the case of abortions, only puts people at risk. You cannot force a woman to have a child she doesn't want. Even if she doesn't seek out a coat-hanger, she'll either abandon the child or be forced to raise a kid she doesn't want which usually leads to neglect of the child and depression in the mother. The former tends to lead to the child leading a life of crime, while the latter tends to lead to drug, alcohol, or smoking addictions. Both ruin lives and families. This isn't theoretical, either. The crime rate dropped dramatically across the country in the years after abortion was made legal. Why? Because unwanted and unloved children weren't being born to be neglected and abused, which in turn would turn them to a life of crime. By banning abortion you'd only be creating more misery and suffering.

I mean, you can't "kill" a fetus more than you can kill a tumor.

You can, as life begins at conception. The Lord knew us in our mother's wombs.

You have medical sources to back up your claim that life begins at conception? Because from what I recall the medical community in general seems to be in agreement that this is not in fact the case.

But yes, John Brown did nothing wrong.

Didnt he execute a family in Kansas?

Not that I'm aware of. I know he executing pro-slavery militants in Kansas, but this is the first I'm hearing of any mass murder of an entire family.

The Anglican Church has accepted the use of contraception within marriage in certain circumstances since the 1930 Lambeth Conference, and the consensus within the Eastern Orthodox churches has also moved towards acceptance of contraception as playing a role in family planning. To quote the Patriarchate of Constantinople's 2020 document For the Life of the World: Toward a Social Ethos of the Orthodox Church (via OrthodoxWiki), "The Orthodox Church has no dogmatic objection to the use of safe and non-abortifacient contraceptives within the context of married life, not as an ideal or as a permanent arrangement, but as a provisional concession to necessity." The Roman Catholic Church is therefore at the extreme end of the spectrum with regards to its position on contraception. I personally think that the Catholic Church overemphasises procreation as a component of marriage and is wrong to condemn intercourse for any reason other than procreation.

Once again the Anglican and Orthodox Churches prove they are totally based.

My friend, I'm pleased that you see the moral clarity in the teachings of my church, the Catholic Church. I'm happy to be of service.

First, I just want to tell you that Jesus Christ is the love of my life. The second love of my life is Mary most holy, my mother and your mother. I must tell you to be very good to your mother, to be patient, to pray. Don't make any gestures of rebellion towards your mother because she had an abortion. Is that clear?

Jesus is the King of all hearts and Lord of all wills, he will move your mother towards him very serenely and down the same path that you have in your soul.

Love your mother, but in the mean time learn the teachings of Jesus Christ and pray. Never a word of criticism against your mother. Love her with all your soul and show it with your deeds.

You will be a good child of Christ if you are a good child of your mother.

I want to be a good child of Christ

IMO the ultimate secret of being a Good Christian™ is to try not to judge others for any reason. This includes sinners, non-believers, heretics, apostates, criminals, etc. It's unfathomably difficult to do this, I know, and I can attest to that personally from years of experience in trying but once you learn how to master it everything else should come a helluva lot easier.

I know you didn't ask but I figured I'd go ahead and share.

[Sundiata]

Ha!


You absolutely can criticize someone's actions without negatively criticizing who they are, which would be a criticism against them or in other words, a judgement against them.

No, you can't. Again, this is just the way the language works. If I were to say that you did something wrong, that would be criticism of you.

You can criticize people's actions without criticizing who they are. It's the distinction between saying "Sundiata is a mean person," and saying "Sundiata's style of arguing is personally mean," for example.

In a Christian sense, it's a way of practicing kindness. Hating the particular sin, not the sinner.

[Luminesa]

For Porraca, I’ll add a little to what LV has said (though I will gently drop a reminder that St. Paul tells us to preach the Word in Truth and Mercy. Preach the Gospel, but do so with love).

Pray a lot, ask God to reveal Himself to You. It seems He’s already opened your heart and given you some initial consolations. Consolations = the feeling of His presence. This is good! Jesus wants to interact with you. Ask Him to help you through difficult things in your life.

Get a prayer journal! Writing in a journal is a great way to pray, especially if you’re not used to the practice. Think about it like you’re writing a letter to a friend you love very much.

Buy a nice study Bible, if you don’t have one lying around the house. Alternatively, ask your dad if he can buy you one. It certainly wouldn’t hurt. A study Bible is helpful because it often has footnotes which explain the context of a lot of verses.

Practice charity in your home and community. If you have people in your community who are suffering, see how you can help them. Even just giving a smile, a listening ear, and a hug is the beginning of developing that Christian virtue of charity. Give it time and be patient with all things, especially yourself.

Recognize that you’ll fall a lot and be frightened a lot, but God is never far from you. Even if you don’t feel consolations, God is always close and waiting to come care for you.

[Lord Dominator]

#BeatingKowani

in my defense, i was watching C-SPAN earlier today and only recently got online

I was mostly just surprised I beat you

[Sundiata]

If you want to prevent abortions then the only effective means of doing so is teaching people how to have safe sex and to use contraceptives if they don't intend to procreate. So you seem opposed to that idea, you clearly aren't interested in actually combating abortions effectively and are under the delusion that banning things prevents them from happening - which both the War on Drugs and Prohibition proved don't work.

There needs to be a proportionate response from law enforcement. Abortion providers have to be found and commensurately stopped. We've accomplished moral feats before in human history through the power of government. An abortion ban is something we can work together to accomplish again through government. But first, it's going to take a Catholic government, or at least a government with a strong Catholic moral influence. Abortion is menacing our society, it threatens our values, and it kills our children. We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror. We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort. If it can't be done in millions of dollars, it might take billions. If not billions, then trillions. We've got to the moral responsibility to stop this unprecedented horror.

Let me spell out for you what's going to happen in your fantasy world where abortion is outlawed (it never will be, btw): women will seek abortions from back-alley "clinics" of unprofessional, amateur "doctors" who don't know what the fuck their doing performing dangerous operations without the proper tools and training to do so leading to botched abortions that can permanently damage the patient or even result in death.

We've got to stop the providers. The providers of this procedure have got to face justice. Any government that takes action to stop this is a government that is doing the work of God, thank you.

[Tarsonis]

If you want to prevent abortions then the only effective means of doing so is teaching people how to have safe sex and to use contraceptives if they don't intend to procreate. So you seem opposed to that idea, you clearly aren't interested in actually combating abortions effectively and are under the delusion that banning things prevents them from happening - which both the War on Drugs and Prohibition proved don't work.

There needs to be a proportionate response from law enforcement. Abortion providers have to be found and commensurately stopped. We've accomplished moral feats before in human history through the power of government. An abortion ban is something we can work together to accomplish again through government. But first, it's going to take a Catholic government, or at least a government with a strong Catholic moral influence. Abortion is menacing our society, it threatens our values, and it kills our children. We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror. We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort. If it can't be done in millions of dollars, it might take billions. If not billions, then trillions. We've got to the moral responsibility to stop this unprecedented horror.

Let me spell out for you what's going to happen in your fantasy world where abortion is outlawed (it never will be, btw): women will seek abortions from back-alley "clinics" of unprofessional, amateur "doctors" who don't know what the fuck their doing performing dangerous operations without the proper tools and training to do so leading to botched abortions that can permanently damage the patient or even result in death.

We've got to stop the providers. The providers of this procedure have got to face justice. Any government that takes action to stop this is a government that is doing the work of God, thank you.

Will never happen until you win the culture war, which you are losing. Supreme law of the land says you can't. Short of packing the courts to twist the law, you'll never get an amendment through the process. So what's your plan?

[Kowani]

in my defense, i was watching C-SPAN earlier today and only recently got online

I was mostly just surprised I beat you

it happens
though usually it's when i have a backlog of stories ready to go and not enough space for them...

[Atheris]

If you want to prevent abortions then the only effective means of doing so is teaching people how to have safe sex and to use contraceptives if they don't intend to procreate. So you seem opposed to that idea, you clearly aren't interested in actually combating abortions effectively and are under the delusion that banning things prevents them from happening - which both the War on Drugs and Prohibition proved don't work.

There needs to be a proportionate response from law enforcement. Abortion providers have to be found and commensurately stopped.

Which is
1. impossible
2. way more deadly for women. As I've told you before, back alley abortions carry a much higher mortality rate (4-13%) than legal abortion (0.0006%).

An abortion ban is something we can work together to accomplish again through government.

It would also kill thousands.

But first, it's going to take a Catholic government, or at least a government with a strong Catholic moral influence.

THERE IT IS! EVERYONE DRINK!

Abortion is menacing our society, it threatens our values, and it kills our children.

Sure it is/does.

We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror.

Not really.

We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort. If it can't be done in millions of dollars, it might take billions. If not billions, then trillions. We've got to the moral responsibility to stop this unprecedented horror.

I'm not going to help people fund a theocracy that would kill me, my friends, and many of my associates because we're in the LGBT, disabled, or not Catholic. This is the US in 2021, not Iran or France in the 1200s.

We've got to stop the providers. The providers of this procedure have got to face justice. Any government that takes action to stop this is a government that is doing the work of God, thank you.

"We've got to stop the providers of drugs!"
"We've got to stop the providers of terrorism!"
This hasn't worked at all in the past and it won't work for something as stupid as abortion.

[Suriyanakhon]

We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror. We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort.

If pro-life terrorism hasn't stopped abortion, this is even less likely to.

[Sundiata]

There needs to be a proportionate response from law enforcement. Abortion providers have to be found and commensurately stopped. We've accomplished moral feats before in human history through the power of government. An abortion ban is something we can work together to accomplish again through government. But first, it's going to take a Catholic government, or at least a government with a strong Catholic moral influence. Abortion is menacing our society, it threatens our values, and it kills our children. We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror. We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort. If it can't be done in millions of dollars, it might take billions. If not billions, then trillions. We've got to the moral responsibility to stop this unprecedented horror.

We've got to stop the providers. The providers of this procedure have got to face justice. Any government that takes action to stop this is a government that is doing the work of God, thank you.

Will never happen until you win the culture war, which you are losing. Supreme law of the land says you can't. Short of packing the courts to twist the law, you'll never get an amendment through the process. So what's your plan?

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

[Salus Maior]

We've got to take strong steps to do something about this horror. We can and will make much progress if we're prepared to work in conjunction with church and community leaders to stop abortion providers in a vigorous national effort.

If pro-life terrorism hasn't stopped abortion, this is even less likely to.

I mean, what he's describing is lobbying and forming political associations.

In America historically that's how political movements start.

[Atheris]

With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

This is literally the first fucking amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; etc.

[Tarsonis]

Will never happen until you win the culture war, which you are losing. Supreme law of the land says you can't. Short of packing the courts to twist the law, you'll never get an amendment through the process. So what's your plan?

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

[Washington Resistance Army]

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

Nobody expects the American Inquisition.

[Kowani]

Will never happen until you win the culture war, which you are losing. Supreme law of the land says you can't. Short of packing the courts to twist the law, you'll never get an amendment through the process. So what's your plan?

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

this is wishful thinking at best that ignores how political coalitions work
you can't win the at congressional level at the scale you want without winning the culture war
which, as tars pointed out, you are losing
your agenda is unpopular, your allies even more so
there is no point forward for an anti-abortion agenda without first addressing this fact of American religious politics

[Atheris]

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

Nobody expects the American Inquisition.

NOBODY expects the American Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and drone strikes...drone strikes and surprise.... Our two weapons are drone strikes and surprise...and ruthless inefficiency.... Our three weapons are drone strikes, surprise, and ruthless inefficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the President.... Our four...no... Amongst our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as drone strikes, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[Tarsonis]

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

this is wishful thinking at best that ignores how political coalitions work
you can't win the at congressional level at the scale you want without winning the culture war
which, as tars pointed out, you are losing
your agenda is unpopular, your allies even more so
there is no point forward for an anti-abortion agenda without first addressing this fact of American religious politics

well there is, I've already explained how to do it. Problem is most pro-lifers would rather die on their hill rather than play the long game and affect meaningful change.

[Sundiata]

At the congressional level we've got to get our foot into the door of both major political party establishments through selective campaign donations that depend on their loyalty to a firmly Catholic policy agenda. Democrat or Republican, we've got to make it impossible for fringe actors (especially fascists and communists) to break through the bulwark we're building. From that ground, our candidates who are Democrat or Republican will run for the Presidential nomination and proceed to win. With a packed court, packed congress, and packed presidency, we'll be able to implement a Catholic policy agenda at the national level. With all of our policies having potential impact, we can change the United States of America into a far different country than it is today, a properly Christian country.

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

There are plenty of potential Catholic immigrants to the United States from Uganda, Bangladesh, Brazil, all over the world, to vote in the way of the church. As far as influence in the Catholic world goes, it's especially important to get a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross on the Pontiff's seat. No more Popes from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits). At least, not for the next few decades. I love Pope Francis but it's going to take a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross to act strongly to move the governments of the world, as well as members of the laity in a single communal direction.

I don't dislike the Jesuits but I just don't think that their way of catechesis is what we will need to prioritize as a church in the next 10-20 years. I pray for the next Pope to be from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. Also, because not all Christians are Catholic, we need to emphasize the areas that we can move our brothers and sisters from different denominations. The world needs to associate the Catholic Church, not just with spiritual good, but material good.

[Atheris]

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

There are plenty of potential Catholic immigrants to the United States from Uganda, Bangladesh, Brazil to vote in the way of the church. As far as influence in the Catholic world goes, it's especially important to get a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross on the Pontiff's seat. No more Popes from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits). At least, not for the next few decades. I love Pope Francis but it's going to take a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross to act strongly to move the governments of the world, as well as members of the laity in a single communal direction.

I don't dislike the Jesuits but I just don't think that their way of catechesis is what we will need to prioritize as a church in the next 10-20 years. I pray for the next Pope to be from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. Also, because not all Christians are Catholic, we need to emphasize the areas that we can move our brothers and sisters from different denominations. The world needs to associate the Catholic Church, not just with spiritual good, but material good.

I associate the Catholic church with hokey, lies, and child abuse. Nothing the Pope says or do will budge me on that, and I'm sure plenty of others - be them Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, or anything else - think that way, as well.

[Sundiata]

There are plenty of potential Catholic immigrants to the United States from Uganda, Bangladesh, Brazil to vote in the way of the church. As far as influence in the Catholic world goes, it's especially important to get a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross on the Pontiff's seat. No more Popes from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits). At least, not for the next few decades. I love Pope Francis but it's going to take a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross to act strongly to move the governments of the world, as well as members of the laity in a single communal direction.

I don't dislike the Jesuits but I just don't think that their way of catechesis is what we will need to prioritize as a church in the next 10-20 years. I pray for the next Pope to be from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. Also, because not all Christians are Catholic, we need to emphasize the areas that we can move our brothers and sisters from different denominations. The world needs to associate the Catholic Church, not just with spiritual good, but material good.

I associate the Catholic church with hokey, lies, and child abuse. Nothing the Pope says or do will budge me on that, and I'm sure plenty of others - be them Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, or anything else - think that way, as well.

Then friendship for them all.

[Salus Maior]

well there is, I've already explained how to do it. Problem is most pro-lifers would rather die on their hill rather than play the long game and affect meaningful change.

If we concede on the idea that abortion should not be ceased immediately as a moral atrocity, that risks abortion being fully normalized and being without severe criticism.

I'm all for expanding welfare for children and families, but regardless of whether it's feasible or not we have to fight for its immediate abolition. Being all "oh, it'll just have to go eventually" is weaksauce and nobody would be convicted by that.

Just as hoping for an "eventual" abolition of slavery didn't do anything to stop slavery. It was direct action and constant pushing for abolition which dragged the slave institution down. And if the constitution enables it, well, then it's not worth respecting as far as that's concerned. The constitution is not a sacred document, and shouldn't be respected where it is in severe error.

[Tarsonis]

Yeah, except most Americans don't want that. So your candidates who are pushing Christian Dominionism won't get elected. And Christians like me, who reject theocracy as a matter or principle, will fight you at every turn. What is your plan for dealing with us?

There are plenty of potential Catholic immigrants to the United States from Uganda, Bangladesh, Brazil, all over the world, to vote in the way of the church. As far as influence in the Catholic world goes, it's especially important to get a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross on the Pontiff's seat. No more Popes from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits). At least, not for the next few decades. I love Pope Francis but it's going to take a Pope from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross to act strongly to move the governments of the world, as well as members of the laity in a single communal direction.

I don't dislike the Jesuits but I just don't think that their way of catechesis is what we will need to prioritize as a church in the next 10-20 years. I pray for the next Pope to be from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. Also, because not all Christians are Catholic, we need to emphasize the areas that we can move our brothers and sisters from different denominations. The world needs to associate the Catholic Church, not just with spiritual good, but material good.

So you're not even interested in a Catholic theocracy, you want an Opus Dei theocracy. Please understand that will never happen without violence and I (along with most other Christians) will fight your movement to the death if need be.