Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Porraca]

Contraceptives stop sex from being an intimate act between a husband and wife? How?

It's almost like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want abortions but then you don't want to have contraceptives that prevent pregnancy thereby lowering the number of abortions.

Do you want an honest theological answer or do you just want to argue? Marriage means something specific in traditional Christian theology.

It's a sacrament.

Im Christian but im not apart of the catholic denomination. I honestly have to agree with you. God made sex for the purpose of having children. We cannot abuse what was given to us. and Its a beautiful thing as much as I hate saying this as a teenager it makes me wanna barf but it's true though. If you don't want children don't do the obvious. However, you cant really help if your raped but its really sad when someone wants to have an abortion because that baby reminds them of them getting raped how sad . My mom aborted my lil brother because he had special needs

[Sundiata]

My mom aborted my lil brother because he had special needs

My friend, I'm pleased that you see the moral clarity in the teachings of my church, the Catholic Church. I'm happy to be of service.

First, I just want to tell you that Jesus Christ is the love of my life. The second love of my life is Mary most holy, my mother and your mother. I must tell you to be very good to your mother, to be patient, to pray. Don't make any gestures of rebellion towards your mother because she had an abortion. Is that clear?

Jesus is the King of all hearts and Lord of all wills, he will move your mother towards him very serenely and down the same path that you have in your soul.

Love your mother, but in the mean time learn the teachings of Jesus Christ and pray. Never a word of criticism against your mother. Love her with all your soul and show it with your deeds.

You will be a good child of Christ if you are a good child of your mother.

[Luminesa]

Do you want an honest theological answer or do you just want to argue? Marriage means something specific in traditional Christian theology.

It's a sacrament.

Im Christian but im not apart of the catholic denomination. I honestly have to agree with you. God made sex for the purpose of having children. We cannot abuse what was given to us. and Its a beautiful thing as much as I hate saying this as a teenager it makes me wanna barf but it's true though. If you don't want children don't do the obvious. However, you cant really help if your raped but its really sad when someone wants to have an abortion because that baby reminds them of them getting raped how sad . My mom aborted my lil brother because he had special needs

Oh geez, I’m…so sorry for what…you’ve experienced. Do you need to talk about it?

[Tarsonis]

I mean, yeah, life technically begins at conception. But the fetus itself doesn't fit the definition of what would constitute sapient, or even sentient, life. It's realistically no more alive than a tumor or a skin graft.

God did not direct the violence or the evil in the Old Testament. Saint Paul describes the Deuteronomic law as a concession in Galatians 3:19 until Christ came to fulfill it.

This is false. God directs violence many times. Saul even loses God's favor for showing mercy in contrast to God's edict.

The violence in the OT is there and is something you have to square with. Trying to wave it away with a "nu uh" like that only makes us look bad.

[Kowani]

in my defense, i was watching C-SPAN earlier today and only recently got online

what a mess of a case lmao
Roberts gets joined by Breyer, Sotomayor, Kagan, Brett and Coney Barrett. Barrett then writes a concurring opinion that Kavanaugh joins in full and Breyer joins (except for the first paragraph), Alito writes an opinion concurring in the judgment – if not necessarily reasoning, gets joined by Thomas and Gorsuch. Gorsuch then writes his own opinion concurring in the judgment, which Thomas and Alito join.

Roberts: “Okay ya’ll how do we wanna do this?”
Sotomayor: “I’m down.”
Kagan: “I came for snacks.”
Barrett: “WAIT DON’T VOTE YET I wrote an opinion.”
Roberts: “Wait wha-“
Alito: “ME TOO!”
Sotomayor: “Uh why do we have two-”
Gorsuch: “UNO!”
Roberts: “OH COME ON!!!”

...i want SCOTUS snacks

Never a word of criticism against your mother.

man what the fuck is this lmao

[Sundiata]

man what the fuck is this lmao

"There are a lot of things inside of us that we don't want to let go of, and really we have no right to have anything in our heart except God's love. Then with and through that love comes the holy love of our parents and all souls."
-St. Josemaria Escriva

[Old Tyrannia]

The Anglican Church has accepted the use of contraception within marriage in certain circumstances since the 1930 Lambeth Conference, and the consensus within the Eastern Orthodox churches has also moved towards acceptance of contraception as playing a role in family planning. To quote the Patriarchate of Constantinople's 2020 document For the Life of the World: Toward a Social Ethos of the Orthodox Church (via OrthodoxWiki), "The Orthodox Church has no dogmatic objection to the use of safe and non-abortifacient contraceptives within the context of married life, not as an ideal or as a permanent arrangement, but as a provisional concession to necessity." The Roman Catholic Church is therefore at the extreme end of the spectrum with regards to its position on contraception. I personally think that the Catholic Church overemphasises procreation as a component of marriage and is wrong to condemn intercourse for any reason other than procreation.

[Tarsonis]

The Anglican Church has accepted the use of contraception within marriage in certain circumstances since the 1930 Lambeth Conference, and the consensus within the Eastern Orthodox churches has also moved towards acceptance of contraception as playing a role in family planning. To quote the Patriarchate of Constantinople's 2020 document For the Life of the World: Toward a Social Ethos of the Orthodox Church (via OrthodoxWiki), "The Orthodox Church has no dogmatic objection to the use of safe and non-abortifacient contraceptives within the context of married life, not as an ideal or as a permanent arrangement, but as a provisional concession to necessity." The Roman Catholic Church is therefore at the extreme end of the spectrum with regards to its position on contraception. I personally think that the Catholic Church overemphasises procreation as a component of marriage and is wrong to condemn intercourse for any reason other than procreation.

I agree with all this except for the last clause there. The Church does not condemn sex for any reason other than procreation. Rather the Church insists the procreative element must never be removed. I don't particularly agree with that position of the Church either, but to be clear the Church does not condemn sex for pleasure.

[Sundiata]

I personally think that the Catholic Church overemphasises procreation as a component of marriage and is wrong to condemn intercourse for any reason other than procreation.

Well, I want to start with you from the beginning as a Christian. What do you think it means for a husband and wife to become one flesh? We also don't isolate sex for procreation, we just never exclude ourselves from the possibility.

[Kowani]

man what the fuck is this lmao

"There are a lot of things inside of us that we don't want to let go of, and really we have no right to have anything in our heart except God's love. Then with and through that love comes the holy love of our parents and all souls."
-St. Josemaria Escriva

this doesn't address the problem with this statement at all

[Tarsonis]

I personally think that the Catholic Church overemphasises procreation as a component of marriage and is wrong to condemn intercourse for any reason other than procreation.

Well, I want to start with you from the beginning as a Christian. What do you think it means for a husband and wife to become one flesh? We also don't isolate sex for procreation, we just never exclude ourselves from the possibility.

Sund, I love you, but you're punching above your belt weight here.

[Sundiata]

"There are a lot of things inside of us that we don't want to let go of, and really we have no right to have anything in our heart except God's love. Then with and through that love comes the holy love of our parents and all souls."
-St. Josemaria Escriva

this doesn't address the problem with this statement at all

Christians are to treat our mothers as Christ treats his, with the holy love of God, that includes not personally criticizing our mothers. I'm comfortable with answering any questions.

[Sundiata]

Well, I want to start with you from the beginning as a Christian. What do you think it means for a husband and wife to become one flesh? We also don't isolate sex for procreation, we just never exclude ourselves from the possibility.

Sund, I love you, but you're punching above your belt weight here.

Thank you Tars. Please help me clarify if I am mistaken or misphrased anything.

[Kowani]

this doesn't address the problem with this statement at all

Christians are to treat our mothers as Christ treats his, with the holy love of God, that includes not personally criticizing our mothers. I'm comfortable with answering any questions.

okay
what do you do with abusive or neglectful mothers

[Sundiata]

Christians are to treat our mothers as Christ treats his, with the holy love of God, that includes not personally criticizing our mothers. I'm comfortable with answering any questions.

okay
what do you do with abusive or neglectful mothers

Clarification. You condemn their actions, not the mothers themselves. Is that clear?

[Kowani]

okay
what do you do with abusive or neglectful mothers

Clarification. You condemn their actions, not the mothers themselves. Is that clear?

nobody said anything about condemning
you said criticizing
these things are not interchangeable

[Sundiata]

Clarification. You condemn their actions, not the mothers themselves. Is that clear?

nobody said anything about condemning
you said criticizing
these things are not interchangeable

I said "criticism against" or condemning, these things are interchangeable. It's not Christian to gossip about people or speak ill of them, especially behind their back.

[Porraca]

Im Christian but im not apart of the catholic denomination. I honestly have to agree with you. God made sex for the purpose of having children. We cannot abuse what was given to us. and Its a beautiful thing as much as I hate saying this as a teenager it makes me wanna barf but it's true though. If you don't want children don't do the obvious. However, you cant really help if your raped but its really sad when someone wants to have an abortion because that baby reminds them of them getting raped how sad . My mom aborted my lil brother because he had special needs

Oh geez, I’m…so sorry for what…you’ve experienced. Do you need to talk about it?

Normally I don't really like talking about it just because I just can't wrap my head out of it. I do however need to get it off my chest. It doesn't surprise me, she has left God and all there is left to do is bring it up to the King(Jesus) . I tried confronting her about her leaving God but she tries and changes the subject and it makes me sad because my dad just broke the news saying that my mom has left Christianity and doesn't believe in God anymore. which literally had me in tears . I'm only 2 months in on being a Christian and ive experienced way to much. Ive met Jesus in my dreams before and His presence feels soo good and you literally get high on his presence. I got attacked by a demon in my dreams . I had a dream that the devil told me he wanted to attack me . I had a dream of going to heaven . and now getting attacked for what I believe in I know making the smiley face looks weird but Jesus says be happy when we are persecuted because the spirit of God is in us . And it challenges me to think on what I believe. Yeesh being a Christian is very overwhelming haha

[Old Tyrannia]

Sund, I love you, but you're punching above your belt weight here.

Thank you Tars. Please help me clarify if I am mistaken or misphrased anything.

I think the point that Tars might be trying to make is that you are approaching a conversation with someone who, in common with a fair number of regular posters here, is reasonably well versed in theology, in a way that could easily be interpreted as patronising. Though he may also have been warning you that I am a cantankerous old git and you'd be better off leaving me to my own devices, which is also true.

All jokes aside, I mean this in the friendliest possible way, but whenever you interact with me in this thread I feel a bit like I've just open my front door to be confronted with a conservatively-dressed older woman clutching a copy of Watchtower Magazine and asking me if I know who Jesus is. I would find it much more comfortable conversing with you if you were to revise your style of interaction to be more casual and direct and less "missionary-like," and whilst I can't speak for anyone else in the thread it wouldn't surprise me if they felt the same way. As an example, I would feel like you were showing me more respect if you had come out and presented a complete argument against the points made in my previous post. Instead you seemed to be trying to lead me towards what you regard as the "correct" conclusion with your questions, an approach more appropriate for a teacher to take with a pupil than in a casual conversation between peers.

I think that this approach is probably one you've been coached in when dealing with non-Catholics challenging or questioning your beliefs, or at least that's how it seems to me. But that isn't an approach suited to a place like this.

[Porraca]

My mom aborted my lil brother because he had special needs

My friend, I'm pleased that you see the moral clarity in the teachings of my church, the Catholic Church. I'm happy to be of service.

First, I just want to tell you that Jesus Christ is the love of my life. The second love of my life is Mary most holy, my mother and your mother. I must tell you to be very good to your mother, to be patient, to pray. Don't make any gestures of rebellion towards your mother because she had an abortion. Is that clear?

Jesus is the King of all hearts and Lord of all wills, he will move your mother towards him very serenely and down the same path that you have in your soul.

Love your mother, but in the mean time learn the teachings of Jesus Christ and pray. Never a word of criticism against your mother. Love her with all your soul and show it with your deeds.

You will be a good child of Christ if you are a good child of your mother.

I want to be a good child of Christ

[Sundiata]

Yeesh being a Christian is very overwhelming haha

It is, especially the greatest and second greatest commandments.

[Kowani]

nobody said anything about condemning
you said criticizing
these things are not interchangeable

I said "criticism against" or condemning, these things are interchangeable. It's not Christian to gossip about people or speak ill of them, especially behind their back.

...no they're not
"criticism against" "condemn" and "gossip" are not synonyms
you're inventing an argument out of cloth

[Luminesa]

Oh geez, I’m…so sorry for what…you’ve experienced. Do you need to talk about it?

Normally I don't really like talking about it just because I just can't wrap my head out of it. I do however need to get it off my chest. It doesn't surprise me, she has left God and all there is left to do is bring it up to the King(Jesus) . I tried confronting her about her leaving God but she tries and changes the subject and it makes me sad because my dad just broke the news saying that my mom has left Christianity and doesn't believe in God anymore. which literally had me in tears . I'm only 2 months in on being a Christian and ive experienced way to much. Ive met Jesus in my dreams before and His presence feels soo good and you literally get high on his presence. I got attacked by a demon in my dreams . I had a dream that the devil told me he wanted to attack me . I had a dream of going to heaven . and now getting attacked for what I believe in I know making the smiley face looks weird but Jesus says be happy when we are persecuted because the spirit of God is in us . And it challenges me to think on what I believe. Yeesh being a Christian is very overwhelming haha

If I can give some kindly advice, your mother is most likely going through a lot of pain. Pray for her healing, and for the healing of your family. There’s a lot happening, it seems, and I can guarantee you that even though I’ve never had to confront the issue you’re caught in, you will not be able to solve it in a day or by being aggressive to your mom. Be gentle to her. It’s hard, especially if you’re angry or frustrated, but you’ve got to look at her the way Jesus would. Jesus loves her and always will. Even when He is deeply saddened by abortions, He will never stop loving your mom and dad, or you. So pray, and just be there for your mom when she is having a hard time.

[Sundiata]

All jokes aside, I mean this in the friendliest possible way, but whenever you interact with me in this thread I feel a bit like I've just open my front door to be confronted with a conservatively-dressed older woman clutching a copy of Watchtower Magazine and asking me if I know who Jesus is.

That was a funny analogy.

I'll do what I can not to sound patronizing, like a teacher, or some sort of missionary. I apologize.

[Sundiata]

I said "criticism against" or condemning, these things are interchangeable. It's not Christian to gossip about people or speak ill of them, especially behind their back.

...no they're not
"criticism against" "condemn" and "gossip" are not synonyms
you're inventing an argument out of cloth

What do you think I mean? Let's work together and fix this misconception.