Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Tarsonis]

Thou shalt not bear false witness (unless you can use it to stoke partisan outrage at your political opponents).

And that is what exactly what the Remnant newspaper is known for. They’re not the type of trad Catholics that “just prefer the TLM”, they are indeed the reactionaries that hate Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, no matter how reverent and “by the book” it is. They’re as close as to being sedes without act being sede.

Catholic version of Pen and Pulpit. Smh

[Sundiata]

It's too early in the thread to discuss Opus Dei.

[Salus Maior]

Which I also think is petty. But I digress.

I'm trying to find the primary source
but the paper The Remnant cited, Messa in Latino (Mass in Latin), doesn't actually cite it either (also, it's a blog...?)

so the MIL claimed the Pope proclaimed this change at the CEI (Italian Episcopal Conference)
but while he did talk about a Motu proprio while he was there...it seems to have been different ones
the tradcaths are up in arms about an alleged reform to Benedict's Summorum Pontificum.
but the Pope is doing something about his own work, the Mitis Iudex Dominus Iesus, plus the Spiritus Domini and the Antiquum Ministerium

but there's one other major problem
this meeting never happened
MIL proclaimed it to be (translated) "yesterday (24.5.2021)"
but there was no conference during this time (and there is no annual meeting at all, they're seasonal)
it was a whole month ahead the Spring Session of the Permanent Episcopal Council took place in 22 to 24 of March
and as a typo, it doesn't work either
MIL claimed this happened "at the opening of the work of the annual assembly of the EIC"
but the 24th was the last day of the Spring Conference

so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes

Huh, well that’s comforting.

You should really get paid for destroying fake news.

[Luminesa]

I'm trying to find the primary source
but the paper The Remnant cited, Messa in Latino (Mass in Latin), doesn't actually cite it either (also, it's a blog...?)

so the MIL claimed the Pope proclaimed this change at the CEI (Italian Episcopal Conference)
but while he did talk about a Motu proprio while he was there...it seems to have been different ones
the tradcaths are up in arms about an alleged reform to Benedict's Summorum Pontificum.
but the Pope is doing something about his own work, the Mitis Iudex Dominus Iesus, plus the Spiritus Domini and the Antiquum Ministerium

but there's one other major problem
this meeting never happened
MIL proclaimed it to be (translated) "yesterday (24.5.2021)"
but there was no conference during this time (and there is no annual meeting at all, they're seasonal)
it was a whole month ahead the Spring Session of the Permanent Episcopal Council took place in 22 to 24 of March
and as a typo, it doesn't work either
MIL claimed this happened "at the opening of the work of the annual assembly of the EIC"
but the 24th was the last day of the Spring Conference

so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes

Huh, well that’s comforting.

You should really get paid for destroying fake news.

Unfortunately NS can’t pay him but I’d be down for a Kowani News Network Kickstarter. XD

[Tarsonis]

I'm trying to find the primary source
but the paper The Remnant cited, Messa in Latino (Mass in Latin), doesn't actually cite it either (also, it's a blog...?)

so the MIL claimed the Pope proclaimed this change at the CEI (Italian Episcopal Conference)
but while he did talk about a Motu proprio while he was there...it seems to have been different ones
the tradcaths are up in arms about an alleged reform to Benedict's Summorum Pontificum.
but the Pope is doing something about his own work, the Mitis Iudex Dominus Iesus, plus the Spiritus Domini and the Antiquum Ministerium

but there's one other major problem
this meeting never happened
MIL proclaimed it to be (translated) "yesterday (24.5.2021)"
but there was no conference during this time (and there is no annual meeting at all, they're seasonal)
it was a whole month ahead the Spring Session of the Permanent Episcopal Council took place in 22 to 24 of March
and as a typo, it doesn't work either
MIL claimed this happened "at the opening of the work of the annual assembly of the EIC"
but the 24th was the last day of the Spring Conference

so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes

Huh, well that’s comforting.

You should really get paid for destroying fake news.

He should consider a career in journalism if he hasn't already

[Kowani]

whee, expectations

[North Washington Republic]

And that is what exactly what the Remnant newspaper is known for. They’re not the type of trad Catholics that “just prefer the TLM”, they are indeed the reactionaries that hate Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, no matter how reverent and “by the book” it is. They’re as close as to being sedes without act being sede.

Catholic version of Pen and Pulpit. Smh

Indeed. The Remnant is also recognized as a hate group by SPLC. On a side note, the Church can bring more non-reactionary Catholics to the extraordinary form by authorizing it that it can be said in the vernacular.

[Salus Maior]

Catholic version of Pen and Pulpit. Smh

Indeed. The Remnant is also recognized as a hate group by SPLC. On a side note, the Church can bring more non-reactionary Catholics to the extraordinary form by authorizing it that it can be said in the vernacular.

Well, then it wouldn’t be the TLM.

I think de-stigmatizing the TLM would do more good. Don’t stereotype it as ‘where all the crazies go’ (which, as I’ve said, isn’t true) or treat them like pesky schismatics (which, again, isn’t true) and that’d go a long way to healing things.

That being said, the Anglican Ordinariate does do masses similar to the TLM but in English. I’ve been to one a couple times, I’d say it should be more accessible.

[Tarsonis]

Catholic version of Pen and Pulpit. Smh

Indeed. The Remnant is also recognized as a hate group by SPLC. On a side note, the Church can bring more non-reactionary Catholics to the extraordinary form by authorizing it that it can be said in the vernacular.

eh, the SPLC can bite me. I mean in the 60s yeah great, but modernly they're basically a partisan organization that slanders even the slightest opposition to progressive agenda as a hate group.

[North Washington Republic]

Indeed. The Remnant is also recognized as a hate group by SPLC. On a side note, the Church can bring more non-reactionary Catholics to the extraordinary form by authorizing it that it can be said in the vernacular.

eh, the SPLC can bite me. I mean in the 60s yeah great, but modernly they're basically a partisan organization that slanders even the slightest opposition to progressive agenda as a hate group.

It’s more of the fact that the Remnant is sympathetic to the Jewish deicide belief that earns their hate group status.
They also list Black supremacist groups as hate groups as well…

[Tarsonis]

eh, the SPLC can bite me. I mean in the 60s yeah great, but modernly they're basically a partisan organization that slanders even the slightest opposition to progressive agenda as a hate group.

It’s more of the fact that the Remnant is sympathetic to the Jewish deicide belief that earns their hate group status.
They also list Black supremacist groups as hate groups as well…

broken clocks and all that

[North Washington Republic]

It’s more of the fact that the Remnant is sympathetic to the Jewish deicide belief that earns their hate group status.
They also list Black supremacist groups as hate groups as well…

broken clocks and all that

Either way, my point is that the Remnant is a fringe newspaper. Take anything they report with a grain of salt since they are not doing it in good faith.

[Salus Maior]

Really, if the Vatican fully embraced the idea of keeping the TLM as a perfectly valid form of the mass that should be widely accessible, it would take a lot of power from rad-trad demagogues fear mongering how the Vatican is plotting to do away with traditional spirituality.

Lots more traditionalists would have their trust in the Vatican restored, and would be less likely to look into things like the SSPX. And greater accessibility would allow new sorts of people to attebd TLMs, which would lessen the risks of echo chambers appearing. I think a more preservation oriented attitude towards traditional liturgy would also assuage the fears of Eastern Christians of losing their liturgy while in communion with Rome as well.

[Tarsonis]

broken clocks and all that

Either way, my point is that the Remnant is a fringe newspaper. Take anything they report with a grain of salt since they are not doing it in good faith.

oh for sure

[Luminesa]

broken clocks and all that

Either way, my point is that the Remnant is a fringe newspaper. Take anything they report with a grain of salt since they are not doing it in good faith.

I’m glad that as someone who’s kinda been on that side of the spectrum before you can offer some insight on some of the...less-than-sane fringe groups. I have heard of The Remnant and The Church Militant, but I tend to keep more toward mainstream Catholic sources while maintaining a different view of traditional Catholicism.

[Lord Dominator]

That moment when Kowani the atheist(?) shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

[Luminesa]

That moment when Kowani the atheist(?) shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

Some ultra-fringe trads are some kinda warped, I tell you hwut.

[Tarsonis]

That moment when Kowani the atheist(?) shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

Think wolfsdale. That's who they appeal to.

[Lord Dominator]

That moment when Kowani the atheist(?) shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

Think wolfsdale. That's who they appeal to.

Ah, that’s a good reference point. Thanks

[North Washington Republic]

Really, if the Vatican fully embraced the idea of keeping the TLM as a perfectly valid form of the mass that should be widely accessible, it would take a lot of power from rad-trad demagogues fear mongering how the Vatican is plotting to do away with traditional spirituality.

Lots more traditionalists would have their trust in the Vatican restored, and would be less likely to look into things like the SSPX. And greater accessibility would allow new sorts of people to attebd TLMs, which would lessen the risks of echo chambers appearing. I think a more preservation oriented attitude towards traditional liturgy would also assuage the fears of Eastern Christians of losing their liturgy while in communion with Rome as well.

Traditionalists do have a place within the Church. Take the FSSP for example, which broke of the SSPX when the Écône consecrations took place. I don’t think the reports of the Vatican trying to limit the extraordinary form are legitimate, and are just published for clicks and to make their readers happy/angry.

I must say, that during my time in Traditionalist Catholicism, I was one of those fringe types that HATED Vatican II and considered it 100% unCatholic and unacceptable. And see, THIS, along with the bashing of the Novus Ordo from rad trads makes it that the Vatican doesn’t wish to cater to them. I’ve NEVER heard a faithful Priest or Bishop that exclusively celebrate the ordinary form bash the extraordinary form, when it’s from a group like the FSSP or secular priest that is in-union with Rome. What rad trads need to do is stop the Novus Ordo bashing, and accept Vatican II as valid and more importantly Catholic.

Either way, my point is that the Remnant is a fringe newspaper. Take anything they report with a grain of salt since they are not doing it in good faith.

I’m glad that as someone who’s kinda been on that side of the spectrum before you can offer some insight on some of the...less-than-sane fringe groups. I have heard of The Remnant and The Church Militant, but I tend to keep more toward mainstream Catholic sources while maintaining a different view of traditional Catholicism.

That’s is a smart idea, Luminesa. I recommend that you keep to mainstream Catholic sources, and having regular communication with your Priest.

[Luminesa]

Really, if the Vatican fully embraced the idea of keeping the TLM as a perfectly valid form of the mass that should be widely accessible, it would take a lot of power from rad-trad demagogues fear mongering how the Vatican is plotting to do away with traditional spirituality.

Lots more traditionalists would have their trust in the Vatican restored, and would be less likely to look into things like the SSPX. And greater accessibility would allow new sorts of people to attebd TLMs, which would lessen the risks of echo chambers appearing. I think a more preservation oriented attitude towards traditional liturgy would also assuage the fears of Eastern Christians of losing their liturgy while in communion with Rome as well.

Traditionalists do have a place within the Church. Take the FSSP for example, which broke of the SSPX when the Écône consecrations took place. I don’t think the reports of the Vatican trying to limit the extraordinary form are legitimate, and are just published for clicks and to make their readers happy/angry.

I must say, that during my time in Traditionalist Catholicism, I was one of those fringe types that HATED Vatican II and considered it 100% unCatholic and unacceptable. And see, THIS, along with the bashing of the Novus Ordo from rad trads makes it that the Vatican doesn’t wish to cater to them. I’ve NEVER heard a faithful Priest or Bishop that exclusively celebrate the ordinary form bash the extraordinary form, when it’s from a group like the FSSP or secular priest that is in-union with Rome. What rad trads need to do is stop the Novus Ordo bashing, and accept Vatican II as valid and more importantly Catholic.

I’m glad that as someone who’s kinda been on that side of the spectrum before you can offer some insight on some of the...less-than-sane fringe groups. I have heard of The Remnant and The Church Militant, but I tend to keep more toward mainstream Catholic sources while maintaining a different view of traditional Catholicism.

That’s is a smart idea, Luminesa. I recommend that you keep to mainstream Catholic sources, and having regular communication with your Priest.

Catholic News Agency, National Catholic Register, and the Vatican website are good.

[Luminesa]

Do we also have Orthodox websites for our Orthodox friends or anyone interested in Orthodoxy?

[Kowani]

That moment when Kowani the atheist(?)

yes

shows more goodwill towards the Vatican than the (nominal?) Catholics they’re taking down with mad facts.

i mean
i'm not an anti-theist, i don't harbour any hate towards the vatican
and while i do have criticisms, i do my best to make sure they're grounded in things that actually happened
the harder traditionalists have a movement to mobilize, and since they feel like they're fighting a war, more things become permissible
the liturgy, the language of the mass (actually those might be the same thing i don't know terminology), etc
they're all about values
or
hm
the emphasis and focus placed on what form they take is a subtext for values and power
hence why you can be a more traditionalist catholic without being a reactionary
case in point, Lumi

[Luminesa]

Liturgy refers more to the structure of the Mass than the language. Liturgy determines the order of actions in the Mass - when we read the readings, when we offer prayers (the offertory), when the priest gives a homily, and when the Eucharist is consecrated. The language can change in a lot of different ways, but the liturgy remains intrinsically the same, even if the Church has 22 different recognized Rites.

[Kowani]

Liturgy refers more to the structure of the Mass than the language. Liturgy determines the order of actions in the Mass - when we read the readings, when we offer prayers (the offertory), when the priest gives a homily, and when the Eucharist is consecrated. The language can change in a lot of different ways, but the liturgy remains intrinsically the same, even if the Church has 22 different recognized Rites.

coño
so much importance on divine PEMDAS

but that makes sense, thank you!