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Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
232
33%
Eastern Orthodox
58
8%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
75
11%
Anglican/Episcopalian
39
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
68
10%
Methodist
16
2%
Baptist
55
8%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
43
6%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
29
4%
Other Christian
90
13%
 
Total votes : 705

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Tarsonis
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Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:48 pm

This is the Twelfth version of the Christian discussion thread, where participants can discuss Christianity in general, the differences between the denominations, general comparative theology (both within and without Christianity), Church history, and many other topics.

While discussion naturally covers a broad range of themes, members of the moderation team (including those participating in the thread), may occasionally gently suggest that some topics might be best taken to a separate thread; this will usually only occur when a subject is itself the subject of discussion in recurring separate NSG threads and would risk dominating this thread if discussed here (examples include, but are not limited to, abortion, homosexuality, the existence of the historical Jesus and/or the existence of God.)


Note: This is a place for Good faith discussion between those wishing to learn and discover. It is not a place to tilt at the religious members of NSG.

Link to Part 11: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=479083
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:56 pm

Out of curiosity, can a Priest reject communion simply because they wish to receive communion in the hand? I understand the trad argument about the default being on the tongue but communion in the hand is also explicitly permitted by Rome, and how can a local Priest reject someone that insists on it?
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:57 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:Out of curiosity, can a Priest reject communion simply because they wish to receive communion in the hand? I understand the trad argument about the default being on the tongue but communion in the hand is also explicitly permitted by Rome, and how can a local Priest reject someone that insists on it?


I've heard of that happening before, but it's wrong.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:08 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:Out of curiosity, can a Priest reject communion simply because they wish to receive communion in the hand? I understand the trad argument about the default being on the tongue but communion in the hand is also explicitly permitted by Rome, and how can a local Priest reject someone that insists on it?


I've heard of that happening before, but it's wrong.


This happened to me in 2012. It was the first mass I attended in many years. It was at the parish that is Notorious for being conservative and more traditional. When it was time for communion, I went up, and kneeled since they had altar rails. When it was my turn, I held my hands the correct way to receive, and the Priest and the alter boy holding the Communion-plate was taken aback by it. I just ended up receiving on the tongue. This is before I became a rad trad and ended up hating communion in the hand.

If I went to Mass now or since the pandemic, I would insist receiving communion in the hand….
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:12 pm

When people don't listen to your polite request to fill out the full 500 of the past thread first...

Image
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:15 pm

Tarsonis wrote:When people don't listen to your polite request to fill out the full 500 of the past thread first...



Sorry…and well it’s locked now.
I’m a Wesleyan Christian center-left American Patriot. 29 year-old male and I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, neoconservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, LGBTQIA rights, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:16 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:When people don't listen to your polite request to fill out the full 500 of the past thread first...



Sorry…and well it’s locked now.


Oh well
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:19 pm

This same leader told a gathering that “The Conservative Resurgence is like the Civil War, except this time unlike the last one, the right side won.” I walked out of that gathering, as did one of you.


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Postby Punished UMN » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:29 pm

I leave for thirty minutes and you guys have a new thread smh
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Postby Lady Victory » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:08 pm

Punished UMN wrote:I leave for thirty minutes and you guys have a new thread smh


The old thread was condemned as heretical by the Second Council of Chalcedon. :p
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Postby Dylar » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:18 pm

Salus Maior wrote:Apparently, the Vatican may have plans to place restrictions on the practice of the TLM.

I don't know anything about this news provider, and it would be welcome if this isn't actually something in the works. But this is just very concerning to me, of course, and it's frustrating that the Vatican really just doesn't know what young people want in religion. Traditional parishes are growing, every traditional parish I've been to has had lots of young people in it. If the Vatican restricts the growth of traditional liturgy it'll be a mistake, and it'll nip a lot of peoples' spiritual growth in the bud.

Carrying this over from the last thread. Is there any reason this is even being considered? Like, I understand it if someone doesn't like the Extraordinary Form, but imposing restrictions on it is downright petty and insulting to the members of the faithful and the clergy who wish to participate in the TLM over the Novus Ordo
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Postby North Washington Republic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:25 pm

Dylar wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:Apparently, the Vatican may have plans to place restrictions on the practice of the TLM.

I don't know anything about this news provider, and it would be welcome if this isn't actually something in the works. But this is just very concerning to me, of course, and it's frustrating that the Vatican really just doesn't know what young people want in religion. Traditional parishes are growing, every traditional parish I've been to has had lots of young people in it. If the Vatican restricts the growth of traditional liturgy it'll be a mistake, and it'll nip a lot of peoples' spiritual growth in the bud.

Carrying this over from the last thread. Is there any reason this is even being considered? Like, I understand it if someone doesn't like the Extraordinary Form, but imposing restrictions on it is downright petty and insulting to the members of the faithful and the clergy who wish to participate in the TLM over the Novus Ordo


Considering that this is coming from the Remnant, I’m skeptical of this report.
I’m a Wesleyan Christian center-left American Patriot. 29 year-old male and I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, neoconservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, LGBTQIA rights, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:11 pm

Dylar wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:Apparently, the Vatican may have plans to place restrictions on the practice of the TLM.

I don't know anything about this news provider, and it would be welcome if this isn't actually something in the works. But this is just very concerning to me, of course, and it's frustrating that the Vatican really just doesn't know what young people want in religion. Traditional parishes are growing, every traditional parish I've been to has had lots of young people in it. If the Vatican restricts the growth of traditional liturgy it'll be a mistake, and it'll nip a lot of peoples' spiritual growth in the bud.

Carrying this over from the last thread. Is there any reason this is even being considered? Like, I understand it if someone doesn't like the Extraordinary Form, but imposing restrictions on it is downright petty and insulting to the members of the faithful and the clergy who wish to participate in the TLM over the Novus Ordo


There is a perception that the TLM is where all the reactionaries and right-wing schismatics go. Which is true to an extent (to the same degree that Orthodox aesthetics and liturgy attracts reactionaries, I'd say), most people I've met in person are Catholics who simply find the TLM to be a more spiritually satisfying form of the mass.
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Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:12 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Dylar wrote:Carrying this over from the last thread. Is there any reason this is even being considered? Like, I understand it if someone doesn't like the Extraordinary Form, but imposing restrictions on it is downright petty and insulting to the members of the faithful and the clergy who wish to participate in the TLM over the Novus Ordo


Considering that this is coming from the Remnant, I’m skeptical of this report.

indeed
i've found stories about him restricting it within St. Peter’s Basilica itself, but the Remnant is the only one I could find that had picked up the story about the church at large
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:13 pm

Kowani wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Considering that this is coming from the Remnant, I’m skeptical of this report.

indeed
i've found stories about him restricting it within St. Peter’s Basilica itself, but the Remnant is the only one I could find that had picked up the story about the church at large


Which I also think is petty. But I digress.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:26 pm

Ooh, first page.

In the spirit of the convo, is anyone willing to explain the TLM to me - I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia, but that’d be boring :p

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:34 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Ooh, first page.

In the spirit of the convo, is anyone willing to explain the TLM to me - I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia, but that’d be boring :p


Well, in short, it's the traditional form of the mass that has been practiced for a good few hundred years, and it's liturgical language is latin.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:35 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Kowani wrote:indeed
i've found stories about him restricting it within St. Peter’s Basilica itself, but the Remnant is the only one I could find that had picked up the story about the church at large


Which I also think is petty. But I digress.

I'm trying to find the primary source
but the paper The Remnant cited, Messa in Latino (Mass in Latin), doesn't actually cite it either (also, it's a blog...?)

so the MIL claimed the Pope proclaimed this change at the CEI (Italian Episcopal Conference)
but while he did talk about a Motu proprio while he was there...it seems to have been different ones
the tradcaths are up in arms about an alleged reform to Benedict's Summorum Pontificum.
but the Pope is doing something about his own work, the Mitis Iudex Dominus Iesus, plus the Spiritus Domini and the Antiquum Ministerium

but there's one other major problem
this meeting never happened
MIL proclaimed it to be (translated) "yesterday (24.5.2021)"
but there was no conference during this time (and there is no annual meeting at all, they're seasonal)
it was a whole month ahead the Spring Session of the Permanent Episcopal Council took place in 22 to 24 of March
and as a typo, it doesn't work either
MIL claimed this happened "at the opening of the work of the annual assembly of the EIC"
but the 24th was the last day of the Spring Conference

so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:44 pm

If I wanted to comission the construction of a church (the physical building), how would I go about doing so?
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Postby Autumn Wind » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:59 pm

Kowani wrote:so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes


Thou shalt not bear false witness (unless you can use it to stoke partisan outrage at your political opponents).
Last edited by Autumn Wind on Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:10 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:If I wanted to comission the construction of a church (the physical building), how would I go about doing so?


By having a lot of money.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:27 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:If I wanted to comission the construction of a church (the physical building), how would I go about doing so?


By having a lot of money.

Having a congregation to go with it is also useful

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:39 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
By having a lot of money.

Having a congregation to go with it is also useful


That's easy, just stop by the local dispensary
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:51 pm

Autumn Wind wrote:
Kowani wrote:so i'm gonna say...with relative certainty...this never happened, and someone's playing the propaganda game for political purposes


Thou shalt not bear false witness (unless you can use it to stoke partisan outrage at your political opponents).


And that is what exactly what the Remnant newspaper is known for. They’re not the type of trad Catholics that “just prefer the TLM”, they are indeed the reactionaries that hate Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, no matter how reverent and “by the book” it is. They’re as close as to being sedes without act being sede.
I’m a Wesleyan Christian center-left American Patriot. 29 year-old male and I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, neoconservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, LGBTQIA rights, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Economic Left/Right: -0.75. Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.67
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Vendellamoore
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Postby Vendellamoore » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
By having a lot of money.

Having a congregation to go with it is also useful

Exactly, a church is nothing but a building without the people

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