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1807 children found buried at former Canadian schools

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:54 am

Ayytaly wrote:As someone of First Nations descent, I have to say something: This is less on the religion and more on European colonialism in general. This is the result of narcissistic racists subjugating an entire people based on looks and tradition. Regardless of what religion they followed (if at all), they would deliberately change its context and claim divine right to commit their atrocities.

Most of them never opened the Bible; they merely stood on them just to look down on us.

It's been over 500 years, and my people's blood is still fresh on their hands.


War is war. None of this is abnormal or unique to Europeans. It is thanks to Europeans that modern morality regards these things as unjust on the basis of being anti-human rather than merely "an injustice because it was done to our group, but fine against others".

Colonialism is simply war done more effectively and over larger distances (And, indeed, longer time frames and largely institutionalized, covert, and automated to some extent.).

There is no meaningful difference between the children found in these mass graves and the children kidnapped by ottomans to be raised as jannisaries, or the children killed in a general military advance to seize a tributary state.

The institutions of integration and assimilation imposed on first nations have casualties as surely as any other campaign of assimilation, conquest, and integration of a nation into an economic system. It's important to acknowledge this and to acknowledge these schools as a form of warfare against a populace, causing casualties in order to capture mental territory and acquire resources, wealth, and a subject population. But it is not uniquely atrocious. It is simply the business of war as it has always been, manifested with new social technologies.

You can regard war as bad and inhumane, but to specifically add arbitrary reasons to condemn colonialism specifically smacks of hypocrisy and endangering the very consensus that now protects the vulnerable. That these things are bad because they are anti-human, not because "It's different when it's done to us!". Rather like the germans in WW1 whining about how using shotguns to kill people was bad and evil but using rifles was still bad, but fundamentally different somehow and of a different character, more gentlemanly, less evil, less bad.

It isn't different. You're just complaining about new technologies of warfare, like most people who lose wars do.

The bodies in this grave are war casualties. I don't deny it. children often die in war. Acknowledging that and acknowledging that the assimilation campaigns were a form of warfare is where I stand on the issue. But I don't consider it a uniquely european sin. It also means acknowledging that peace requires dismantling the automated systems of warfare that these social technologies represent. But it doesn't mean pretending this is anything new, or uniquely european, because it isn't. It's the oldest profession.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:15 am, edited 8 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:13 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:As someone of First Nations descent, I have to say something: This is less on the religion and more on European colonialism in general. This is the result of narcissistic racists subjugating an entire people based on looks and tradition. Regardless of what religion they followed (if at all), they would deliberately change its context and claim divine right to commit their atrocities.

Most of them never opened the Bible; they merely stood on them just to look down on us.

It's been over 500 years, and my people's blood is still fresh on their hands.


War is war. None of this is abnormal or unique to Europeans. It is thanks to Europeans that modern morality regards these things as unjust on the basis of being anti-human rather than merely "an injustice because it was done to our group, but fine against others".

Colonialism is simply war done more effectively and over larger distances (And, indeed, longer time frames and largely institutionalized, covert, and automated to some extent.).



Indeed. I've said before that colonialism has been turned into something of a trope rather than something which is comparatively bad; it's said to be bad because the people used boats and they fit into the Mel Gibson 'evil Brit' trope. The actual war and killing is no different than what the supposedly innocent natives have been doing to eachother for centuries. If you follow the 'colonialism = boats' thing then the tomahawk axe was presumably only invented once europeans arrived as they obviously wouldn't be using it for any violent purposes, only felling trees presumably.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:32 am

How can colonialism be bad when axes?!

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:37 am

Ifreann wrote:How can colonialism be bad when axes?!


It is bad, just that there's a lot of hypocrisy and double standards when some people talk about it.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:51 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ifreann wrote:How can colonialism be bad when axes?!


It is bad, just that there's a lot of hypocrisy and double standards when people talk about it.

"He was no angel", but for victims of genocide instead of police violence.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:20 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:As someone of First Nations descent, I have to say something: This is less on the religion and more on European colonialism in general. This is the result of narcissistic racists subjugating an entire people based on looks and tradition. Regardless of what religion they followed (if at all), they would deliberately change its context and claim divine right to commit their atrocities.

Most of them never opened the Bible; they merely stood on them just to look down on us.

It's been over 500 years, and my people's blood is still fresh on their hands.

Religion has always been used as an excuse to perpetrate atrocities. That the indigenous peoples of the world continue to experience discrimination and face challenges even in the presence of secular governance proves that religion itself did not motivate these crimes.


If the government told the church this is what they wanted, the church could have refused to be complicit. If the church just decided to do things this way because that is how they do things then they are to blame. Either way the churches involved don't come out of this well.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:00 am

Ifreann wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
It is bad, just that there's a lot of hypocrisy and double standards when people talk about it.

"He was no angel", but for victims of genocide instead of police violence.


Except that 'not being an angel' also involves commiting genocide or at least militaristic landgrabs. And to reiterate; I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, I'm saying that a lot of context and fair standards are lost in favour of anglophobic tropes because for some people it's often easier to just say 'boat man bad' rather than actally looking at things in historical context.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:04 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
War is war. None of this is abnormal or unique to Europeans. It is thanks to Europeans that modern morality regards these things as unjust on the basis of being anti-human rather than merely "an injustice because it was done to our group, but fine against others".

Colonialism is simply war done more effectively and over larger distances (And, indeed, longer time frames and largely institutionalized, covert, and automated to some extent.).



Indeed. I've said before that colonialism has been turned into something of a trope rather than something which is comparatively bad; it's said to be bad because the people used boats and they fit into the Mel Gibson 'evil Brit' trope. The actual war and killing is no different than what the supposedly innocent natives have been doing to eachother for centuries. If you follow the 'colonialism = boats' thing then the tomahawk axe was presumably only invented once europeans arrived as they obviously wouldn't be using it for any violent purposes, only felling trees presumably.
But this is not the early contact period, fella. Ain't no tribes were warring with each other during the period of the residential schools.
Last indigenous "battle" was like, what, 1870 around belly river, weren't it? Batoche happened later, but that don't really count.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:08 am

Kubra wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Indeed. I've said before that colonialism has been turned into something of a trope rather than something which is comparatively bad; it's said to be bad because the people used boats and they fit into the Mel Gibson 'evil Brit' trope. The actual war and killing is no different than what the supposedly innocent natives have been doing to eachother for centuries. If you follow the 'colonialism = boats' thing then the tomahawk axe was presumably only invented once europeans arrived as they obviously wouldn't be using it for any violent purposes, only felling trees presumably.
But this is not the early contact period, fella. Ain't no tribes were warring with each other during the period of the residential schools.
Last indigenous "battle" was like, what, 1870 around belly river, weren't it? Batoche happened later, but that don't really count.


The argument i'm advancing, and perhaps SD as well, is that these institutions are simply a continuation of warfare using new social technologies. But we're also commenting on the post made about the evils of european colonialism.

That tribes weren't fighting eachother is hardly relevant. It's about as relevant as France and England crying about how mean Germany is and how they've done something never before done in history by daring to have a war with them like the meany imperialist they are.

Which to be fair, they did pull that shit after WW1 and it was just as ridiculous when they did it as when Native apologists do it.

In reality they united against a bigger threat. That's why they stopped fighting. Not because they're suddenly enlightened as to why war is a bad idea.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:10 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Kubra wrote: But this is not the early contact period, fella. Ain't no tribes were warring with each other during the period of the residential schools.
Last indigenous "battle" was like, what, 1870 around belly river, weren't it? Batoche happened later, but that don't really count.


The argument i'm advancing, and perhaps SD as well, is that these institutions are simply a continuation of warfare using new social technologies.
Sure, but we're entering into str8 up post-structuralist territory defining war as such, and that sort of thing really offends my anglophonic sensibilities.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:12 am

Kubra wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Indeed. I've said before that colonialism has been turned into something of a trope rather than something which is comparatively bad; it's said to be bad because the people used boats and they fit into the Mel Gibson 'evil Brit' trope. The actual war and killing is no different than what the supposedly innocent natives have been doing to eachother for centuries. If you follow the 'colonialism = boats' thing then the tomahawk axe was presumably only invented once europeans arrived as they obviously wouldn't be using it for any violent purposes, only felling trees presumably.
fella. Ain't no


Ain't no mountain high enough, ain't no valley low enough ♫

But this is not the early contact period

tribes were warring with each other during the period of the residential schools.
Last indigenous "battle" was like, what, 1870 around belly river, weren't it? Batoche happened later, but that don't really count.


I was responding to Ostroeuropa regarding the discorse surrounding 'collonialism'. The peak of colonialism was also a long time ago but that doesn't stop it from being tropped in modern times, especially in critical race theory where everything is allegedy a form of collonialism.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:17 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Kubra » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:16 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Kubra wrote:fella. Ain't no


Ain't no mountain hiiiiigh enough, ain't no valley low enough ♫

But this is not the early contact period

tribes were warring with each other during the period of the residential schools.
Last indigenous "battle" was like, what, 1870 around belly river, weren't it? Batoche happened later, but that don't really count.


I was responding to Ostroeuropa regarding the discorse surrounding 'collonialism'. The peak of colonialism was also a long time ago but that doesn't stop it from being tropped in modern times, especially in critical race theory where everything is allegedy a form of collonialism.
Well that's fine and dandy and all, but what does it all have to do with the period relevant here?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:17 am

Kubra wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ain't no mountain hiiiiigh enough, ain't no valley low enough ♫




I was responding to Ostroeuropa regarding the discorse surrounding 'collonialism'. The peak of colonialism was also a long time ago but that doesn't stop it from being tropped in modern times, especially in critical race theory where everything is allegedy a form of collonialism.
Well that's fine and dandy and all, but what does it all have to do with the period relevant here?


Landmines are a similar weapon of war. They remain active long after being planted. These institution were "laid" when exactly?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:18 am

Kubra wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ain't no mountain hiiiiigh enough, ain't no valley low enough ♫




I was responding to Ostroeuropa regarding the discorse surrounding 'collonialism'. The peak of colonialism was also a long time ago but that doesn't stop it from being tropped in modern times, especially in critical race theory where everything is allegedy a form of collonialism.
Well that's fine and dandy and all, but what does it all have to do with the period relevant here?


Ayytaly previously said the fellowing:

Ayytaly wrote:As someone of First Nations descent, I have to say something: This is less on the religion and more on European colonialism in general. This is the result of narcissistic racists subjugating an entire people based on looks and tradition. Regardless of what religion they followed (if at all), they would deliberately change its context and claim divine right to commit their atrocities.

Most of them never opened the Bible; they merely stood on them just to look down on us.

It's been over 500 years, and my people's blood is still fresh on their hands.


If you'd like to report him to Moderation for threadjack then be my guest.
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Postby Immortan Khan » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:18 am

It's popped up on my CBC News Alert but right now no article, but it seems 182 graves have been found at another school located in BC.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:20 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ifreann wrote:"He was no angel", but for victims of genocide instead of police violence.


Except that 'not being an angel' also involves commiting genocide or at least militaristic landgrabs. And to reiterate; I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, I'm saying that a lot of context and fair standards are lost in favour of anglophobic tropes because for some people it's often easier to just say 'boat man bad' rather than actally looking at things in historical context.

Do please tell us about the important context provided by unspecified conflicts between unspecified tribes at an unspecified point in history somewhere on the continent of North America to the discovery of the remains of child victims of genocide on the grounds of residential schools in Canada over the last few weeks.

Also something something boats. I don't really know why you keep talking about boats so it's hard to sarcastically mock it.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:22 am

Immortan Khan wrote:It's popped up on my CBC News Alert but right now no article, but it seems 182 graves have been found at another school located in BC.


I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:24 am

Ifreann wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Except that 'not being an angel' also involves commiting genocide or at least militaristic landgrabs. And to reiterate; I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, I'm saying that a lot of context and fair standards are lost in favour of anglophobic tropes because for some people it's often easier to just say 'boat man bad' rather than actally looking at things in historical context.

Do please tell us about the important context provided by unspecified conflicts between unspecified tribes at an unspecified point in history somewhere on the continent of North America to the discovery of the remains of child victims of genocide on the grounds of residential schools in Canada over the last few weeks.

Also something something boats. I don't really know why you keep talking about boats so it's hard to sarcastically mock it.


Ayytaly went down the 'European colonialism' route. If you dislike it then take it up with him/her.
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Postby Immortan Khan » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:26 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:It's popped up on my CBC News Alert but right now no article, but it seems 182 graves have been found at another school located in BC.


I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.

If you're going to have this take in the face of this update you might as well just start saying the quiet part out loud.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:29 am

Immortan Khan wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.

If you're going to have this take in the face of this update you might as well just start saying the quiet part out loud.


Yes, raising the issue of churches being burned in a thread about the Canadian native 'schools'. Such a neocon right-wing take that only far-right media like The BBC could possibly do that. So distasteful. :roll:

Incase it's not clear, I quoted you in the context of new updates rather than trying to ignore or downplay your own update.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:30 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Immortan Khan wrote:It's popped up on my CBC News Alert but right now no article, but it seems 182 graves have been found at another school located in BC.


I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.

viewtopic.php?p=38772450#p38772450


SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do please tell us about the important context provided by unspecified conflicts between unspecified tribes at an unspecified point in history somewhere on the continent of North America to the discovery of the remains of child victims of genocide on the grounds of residential schools in Canada over the last few weeks.

Also something something boats. I don't really know why you keep talking about boats so it's hard to sarcastically mock it.


Ayytaly went down the 'European colonialism' route. If you dislike it then take it up with him/her.

I'm talking to you and asking you to explain the things you have posted.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:33 am

Ifreann wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.

viewtopic.php?p=38772450#p38772450


Thanks.

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Ayytaly went down the 'European colonialism' route. If you dislike it then take it up with him/her.

I'm talking to you and asking you to explain the things you have posted.


Yes and you seemed to be questioning the relevance of what I posted, thus I gave you the context behind it.
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:33 am

I have to say, the formulation of a distinctly Canadian colonial process in the minds of NSGs foremost empire defenders as being 'European' and subject to 'anglophobic tropes' sure is a juicy bit of ideological construction.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:38 am

Immortan Khan wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I'm curious if this thread has been updated with the churches being burned.

If you're going to have this take in the face of this update you might as well just start saying the quiet part out loud.


Do you think burning all the churches belonging to a particular religion you can get your hands on is a form of cultural genocide? Just curious.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:40 am

Nilokeras wrote:I have to say, the construction of a distinctly Canadian colonial process in the minds of NSGs foremost empire defenders as being 'European' and subject to 'anglophobic tropes' sure is a juicy bit of ideological construction.


Ayytaly brought up the 'European colonialism' thing. Does that mean he's an NSG empire defender?


NSGs foremost empire defender


I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of Sabaton's Rorke's Drift playing on loop in my house.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.

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