1807 children found buried at former Canadian schools

[Salus Maior]

Early missionaries had very little power with which to force change, and indeed the early missionaries were largely very accommodating with local belief in relation to scripture.

Are we talking early missionaries in the Americas?

Because I'm pretty sure that even the early contact with the Indigenous peoples of the Americas was full of genocide (also slavery) and the church wasn't exactly uninvolved in that.

Well, at least early Columbian-related contact. The Vikings coming over a bit, doing some trading and leaving after a few years didn't involve genocide, but they had neither smallpox nor Christianity so there's that.

The residential school conversion, well, there's a few centuries gap there. In any case, there was less forceful conversation to catholicism in particular, if only because it had much deeper roots and less a sense of calvinist exclusivity that tended to be so in the english east.

The "English East"? You realise that the two schools that have been discussed so far are in the west and centre of Canada, right? Also, both these schools are Catholic, not Protestant. The Catholics were absolutely as bad as the Protestants and the west was as bad as the east. The cultural genocide was nationwide and interdenominational.

That depends when and where we're looking, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

The first half of this post, I mean.

[Dakini]

Are we talking early missionaries in the Americas?

Because I'm pretty sure that even the early contact with the Indigenous peoples of the Americas was full of genocide (also slavery) and the church wasn't exactly uninvolved in that.

Well, at least early Columbian-related contact. The Vikings coming over a bit, doing some trading and leaving after a few years didn't involve genocide, but they had neither smallpox nor Christianity so there's that.


The "English East"? You realise that the two schools that have been discussed so far are in the west and centre of Canada, right? Also, both these schools are Catholic, not Protestant. The Catholics were absolutely as bad as the Protestants and the west was as bad as the east. The cultural genocide was nationwide and interdenominational.

That depends when and where we're looking, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

The first half of this post, I mean.

Since you only addressed the first half of the post, your entire post had nothing to do with the thread.

[Immortan Khan]

Right, so changing cultural/religious habits or converting to another belief is not genocidal.

People changing on their own is rather different from missionaries coming along convincing or forcing people to change.

Missionaries convincing people to change faith is not genocidal by any meaningful definition. This is also blatantly ignoring that for a good chunk of the 2000's and 2010's a lot of atheists could be categorized as "missionaries" considering how often they sought to get people to abandon religion.

Anyway, this is sidetracking from the issue at hand.

[Dakini]

People changing on their own is rather different from missionaries coming along convincing or forcing people to change.

Missionaries convincing people to change faith is not genocidal by any meaningful definition. This is also blatantly ignoring that for a good chunk of the 2000's and 2010's a lot of atheists could be categorized as "missionaries" considering how often they sought to get people to abandon religion.

Anyway, this is sidetracking from the issue at hand.

Duh, that's why I stopped talking about it.

Also, comparing internet atheists to people who literally go "we'll give you food if you accept this Bible" is pretty lulzy.

[Immortan Khan]

Missionaries convincing people to change faith is not genocidal by any meaningful definition. This is also blatantly ignoring that for a good chunk of the 2000's and 2010's a lot of atheists could be categorized as "missionaries" considering how often they sought to get people to abandon religion.

Anyway, this is sidetracking from the issue at hand.

Duh, that's why I stopped talking about it.

Also, comparing internet atheists to people who literally go "we'll give you food if you accept this Bible" is pretty lulzy.

I think you stopped talking about it more because it was pretty obvious you were out of your depth.

That's not actually what most missionaries do but atheist groups also organized the dissemination of atheist and anti-religious literature in various heavily religious countries. I mean, you're talking to someone who did actually go out of their way to try and get people to abandon their religious beliefs.

[Dakini]

Duh, that's why I stopped talking about it.

Also, comparing internet atheists to people who literally go "we'll give you food if you accept this Bible" is pretty lulzy.

I think you stopped talking about it more because it was pretty obvious you were out of your depth.

That's not actually what most missionaries do but atheist groups also organized the dissemination of atheist and anti-religious literature in various heavily religious countries. I mean, you're talking to someone who did actually go out of their way to try and get people to abandon their religious beliefs.

No, I legitimately didn't want to keep threadjacking with this useless nonsense. You apparently think it's more important to go on about how persecuted Christians are in a thread that's about Christian schools forcibly converting children, abusing them and sometimes murdering them.

[Immortan Khan]

It would appear that Minister Bennett has an issue with indigenous members of parliament advocating for standing up for indigenous rights issues.

[Nilokeras]

It would appear that Minister Bennett has an issue with indigenous members of parliament advocating for standing up for indigenous rights issues.

I put 50/50 odds on her falling on her own sword and resigning by the end of the day. Cause like jeez, talk about a massive and embarassing self own that will 100% torpedo any goodwill they had left with the First Nations in their ministerial portfolio.

[Kubra]

Early missionaries had very little power with which to force change, and indeed the early missionaries were largely very accommodating with local belief in relation to scripture.

Are we talking early missionaries in the Americas?

Because I'm pretty sure that even the early contact with the Indigenous peoples of the Americas was full of genocide (also slavery) and the church wasn't exactly uninvolved in that.

Well, at least early Columbian-related contact. The Vikings coming over a bit, doing some trading and leaving after a few years didn't involve genocide, but they had neither smallpox nor Christianity so there's that.

The residential school conversion, well, there's a few centuries gap there. In any case, there was less forceful conversation to catholicism in particular, if only because it had much deeper roots and less a sense of calvinist exclusivity that tended to be so in the english east.

The "English East"? You realise that the two schools that have been discussed so far are in the west and centre of Canada, right? Also, both these schools are Catholic, not Protestant. The Catholics were absolutely as bad as the Protestants and the west was as bad as the east. The cultural genocide was nationwide and interdenominational.

If they were iberian, oh yeah totally. But relevant to the canadian experience, the french missionaries were ok.
As for the matter of "just as bad", the presbytarians scalped.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

215 at Kamloops. 751 at Marieval. That's almost a thousand children, at two schools. There were 150 residential schools. 44 of them were operated by the Catholic Church - how many more thousands of children were exterminated in these places?

This was a genocide, and it needs to be recognised as such. No qualifiers, no "symbol of systemic racism". It was a genocide.

[Dakini]

Are we talking early missionaries in the Americas?

Because I'm pretty sure that even the early contact with the Indigenous peoples of the Americas was full of genocide (also slavery) and the church wasn't exactly uninvolved in that.

Well, at least early Columbian-related contact. The Vikings coming over a bit, doing some trading and leaving after a few years didn't involve genocide, but they had neither smallpox nor Christianity so there's that.


The "English East"? You realise that the two schools that have been discussed so far are in the west and centre of Canada, right? Also, both these schools are Catholic, not Protestant. The Catholics were absolutely as bad as the Protestants and the west was as bad as the east. The cultural genocide was nationwide and interdenominational.

If they were iberian, oh yeah totally. But relevant to the canadian experience, the french missionaries were ok.
As for the matter of "just as bad", the presbytarians scalped.

The Catholics ran a large number of the residential schools in Canada and are the only ones who haven't apologised for them (the Anglicans and United Church both have already). I'm sure once all the gravesites are identified, we'll get a better idea of who was worse, but this is somewhat beside the point as the entire thing was terrible.

[Dylar]

If they were iberian, oh yeah totally. But relevant to the canadian experience, the french missionaries were ok.
As for the matter of "just as bad", the presbytarians scalped.

The Catholics ran a large number of the residential schools in Canada and are the only ones who haven't apologised for them (the Anglicans and United Church both have already). I'm sure once all the gravesites are identified, we'll get a better idea of who was worse, but this is somewhat beside the point as the entire thing was terrible.

Correction, the Vatican hasn't apologized.The Archbishop of the Ottawa-Cornwall diocese has.

[Greater Cesnica]

The Catholics ran a large number of the residential schools in Canada and are the only ones who haven't apologised for them (the Anglicans and United Church both have already). I'm sure once all the gravesites are identified, we'll get a better idea of who was worse, but this is somewhat beside the point as the entire thing was terrible.

Correction, the Vatican hasn't apologized.The Archbishop of the Ottawa-Cornwall diocese has.

I don't think the Vatican will apologize. Hasn't that stance been made public prior? Correct me if I'm wrong.

215 at Kamloops. 751 at Marieval. That's almost a thousand children, at two schools. There were 150 residential schools. 44 of them were operated by the Catholic Church - how many more thousands of children were exterminated in these places?

This was a genocide, and it needs to be recognised as such. No qualifiers, no "symbol of systemic racism". It was a genocide.

It is increasingly infuriating to see numerous Canadian right-wingers begin to engage in genocide denialism. It is so, so pigheaded. This is like denying the Holocaust was a genocide, because "not every Jew who went into the camps was killed". If not the genocide of people, it was certainly a cultural genocide, a form of mass ethnic cleansing.

As for how many more were killed? My sincere belief is tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. You have to remember, they wouldn't just bury all the kids. Discoveries made at Kamloops and other dig sites are underestimates. Furthermore, there were hundreds of residential schools, none of which were exempt from the fanatical, genocidal tendencies of the other schools.

And we're seeing the consequences of such actions today, and we're also seeing continual mistreatment of indigenous peoples by the government. The absurdity of it all is almost laughable. The Canadian government is willing to apologize for the residential schools, but unable to stop mistreating natives currently.

I don't quite think Canadians understand the ramifications of this. That this country committed genocide and is continuing the abuse of indigenous peoples. We're so used to criticizing the United States, China, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, etc. that blindness has developed to our own very real flaws.

Yeah, well it's going to happen regardless. These were not the largest "schools".

Instead of going after me over a cynical joke, why isn't there vitriol flying towards the Canadian government for continually failing the indigenous community? For not ensuring access to clean water? For the RCMP killing people at a rate 10 times higher than whites? For police departments around Canada not giving a shit about missing and murdered indigenous women? Talk about why the government refuses to apologize for atrocities committed during the Oka Crisis, at Ipperwash, and at Gustafsen Lake?

Your outrage is fake in my eyes.

Put a fucking sock in it.

You think you have a moral high ground to lecture other people that they aren't being sensitive enough after a post like that?

I am not Canadian and I am still learning about the issue, but apparently listening and letting other people talk is racist now because you need something -- anything -- to screech about and try to direct attention away from your own dickish behavior.

Yeah, well it's going to happen regardless. These were not the largest "schools".

Instead of going after me over a cynical joke, why isn't there vitriol flying towards the Canadian government for continually failing the indigenous community? For not ensuring access to clean water? For the RCMP killing people at a rate 10 times higher than whites? For police departments around Canada not giving a shit about missing and murdered indigenous women? Talk about why the government refuses to apologize for atrocities committed during the Oka Crisis, at Ipperwash, and at Gustafsen Lake?

Your outrage is fake in my eyes.

“Noooooo don’t criticize me for meming dead children I only said that several hundred were rookie numbers it funny!”

I’ve criticized the Canadian government plenty already. I can call you out for joking that there should be more dead children.

I’d advise that you quit digging a hole for yourself.

I concede that it was in bad taste. It was part of my deeply cynical take on the utter ignorance of current issues the indigenous community faces, many of which are directly attributed to the government and societal bigotry.

Oh well. For what it's worth, I'll expand my thoughts next time as I've done above. And I apologize for any offense I may have caused.

[Dylar]

Correction, the Vatican hasn't apologized.The Archbishop of the Ottawa-Cornwall diocese has.

I don't think the Vatican will apologize. Hasn't that stance been made public prior? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean, Pope Francis hasn't outright said that he won't apologize, he just won't do it. I've been reading up on some of the articles and one of them mentions that he apologized on behalf of the Church for our role in colonialism in the Americas, and that he usually makes direct apologies to native peoples whenever he visits the Americas. The best case scenario is that he's not going to apologize until he visits Canada, but since he hasn't scheduled any visits over there, I don't think that'll happen.

The only other reason I can think of as to why he won't apologize, is that perhaps he feels that while the Church as a whole had a hand in operating these schools, it is largely the fault of the local diocese for allowing the abuses to happen.
But that's just speculation on my part and I honestly hope that isn't the case

[Cordais]

As mentioned before, we have nearly a thousand bodied discovered at only a few schools. I can only imagine the number will continue to grow, maybe this fill finally force Canada to face its genocidal past, but knowing Trudeau's past actual actions (not his meaningless words) I highly doubt anything more than a meaningless apology.

[Greater Cesnica]

As mentioned before, we have nearly a thousand bodied discovered at only a few schools. I can only imagine the number will continue to grow, maybe this fill finally force Canada to face its genocidal past, but knowing Trudeau's past actual actions (not his meaningless words) I highly doubt anything more than a meaningless apology.

And this appears to be the unfortunate reality.

[Kubra]

If they were iberian, oh yeah totally. But relevant to the canadian experience, the french missionaries were ok.
As for the matter of "just as bad", the presbytarians scalped.

The Catholics ran a large number of the residential schools in Canada and are the only ones who haven't apologised for them (the Anglicans and United Church both have already). I'm sure once all the gravesites are identified, we'll get a better idea of who was worse, but this is somewhat beside the point as the entire thing was terrible.

As a matter of early contact, you understand. Why the french catholics were generally harmless in early contact and why they were *much less* during the period of residential schools has a lot to do with their place in relation to the secular authority, in which in the former case they were autonomous from new france and in the latter case deeply embedded in the national project of Canada.
You know how it is. This is North America, if we call something "a spawn of satan" it usually means "this costs me money". The overriding reason was a civil one, for which religion was secondary, though of course the religious bodies in question were complicit.

[Kubra]

As mentioned before, we have nearly a thousand bodied discovered at only a few schools. I can only imagine the number will continue to grow, maybe this fill finally force Canada to face its genocidal past, but knowing Trudeau's past actual actions (not his meaningless words) I highly doubt anything more than a meaningless apology.

Nah, Trudeau isn't above acknowledging it, but what defines a liberal (by party membership, I mean) is flexibility, especially when it looks like the tories turn.

[Dakini]

The Catholics ran a large number of the residential schools in Canada and are the only ones who haven't apologised for them (the Anglicans and United Church both have already). I'm sure once all the gravesites are identified, we'll get a better idea of who was worse, but this is somewhat beside the point as the entire thing was terrible.

Correction, the Vatican hasn't apologized.The Archbishop of the Ottawa-Cornwall diocese has.

Oh cool, so the archbishop of one diocese that covers a small part of the country has apologised and you think that's totally sufficient, I guess.

[Dylar]

Correction, the Vatican hasn't apologized.The Archbishop of the Ottawa-Cornwall diocese has.

Oh cool, so the archbishop of one diocese that covers a small part of the country has apologised and you think that's totally sufficient, I guess.

Man, don't you just love it when people put words in your mouth? Cause I sure do love it when people automatically assume I'm okay with the scandalous behaviors of the clergy all because I'm a practicing Catholic who leans a little more on the traditional side

I was clarifying your post, get over it

[Immortan Khan]

It would appear that Minister Bennett has an issue with indigenous members of parliament advocating for standing up for indigenous rights issues.

I put 50/50 odds on her falling on her own sword and resigning by the end of the day. Cause like jeez, talk about a massive and embarassing self own that will 100% torpedo any goodwill they had left with the First Nations in their ministerial portfolio.

She unfortunately has not. She is also getting a lot of support from Liberal Party supporters. I want to say I'm shocked but I'm not.

[Salus Maior]

Well, the Sasketoon Cathedral was vandalized after the discovery of the graves.

[Greater Cesnica]

I put 50/50 odds on her falling on her own sword and resigning by the end of the day. Cause like jeez, talk about a massive and embarassing self own that will 100% torpedo any goodwill they had left with the First Nations in their ministerial portfolio.

She unfortunately has not. She is also getting a lot of support from Liberal Party supporters. I want to say I'm shocked but I'm not.

How exactly are the Liberals justifying this? Like, I knew they'd try, but what are they even saying? The fuck?

[Warriors of Truth]

Keep supporting abortions and identity politics...

This is very sad and Canadians should answer for what happened

[Necroghastia]

Keep supporting abortions and identity politics...

what the fuck do either of those have to do with this