On the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact

[-SARS-]

He was a fuckin' moron whose only talents were propaganda and rhetorics.

Is it correct that he was quite intelligent around the start of the war, but getting addicted to various drugs eroded his senses until such grand delusions took hold?

Not exactly. I tried to read Mein Kampf once. Didn't finish because it read like a low quality racist 14 year old's blog.

The drugs screwed him up worse, but even before the drugs, he was never as brilliant as he thought he was.

[Kanadorika]

Is it correct that he was quite intelligent around the start of the war, but getting addicted to various drugs eroded his senses until such grand delusions took hold?

Not exactly. I tried to read Mein Kampf once. Didn't finish because it read like a low quality racist 14 year old's blog.

The drugs screwed him up worse, but even before the drugs, he was never as brilliant as he thought he was.

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

[Page]

Not exactly. I tried to read Mein Kampf once. Didn't finish because it read like a low quality racist 14 year old's blog.

The drugs screwed him up worse, but even before the drugs, he was never as brilliant as he thought he was.

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Had the Nazis been flexible enough on their fanatical antisemitism to accommodate all the brilliant Jewish scientists who had to flee Germany, they might have ended up getting the bomb first.

[Ifreann]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Had the Nazis been flexible enough on their fanatical antisemitism to accommodate all the brilliant Jewish scientists who had to flee Germany, they might have ended up getting the bomb first.

Also they might not have been Nazis.

[-The-Union of Soviet Socialist Republics]

Had the Nazis been flexible enough on their fanatical antisemitism to accommodate all the brilliant Jewish scientists who had to flee Germany, they might have ended up getting the bomb first.

Also they might not have been Nazis.

True, they might as well have been a Franco-style dictatorship, fascist in name only, which is more or less just a military dictatorship.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Not exactly. I tried to read Mein Kampf once. Didn't finish because it read like a low quality racist 14 year old's blog.

The drugs screwed him up worse, but even before the drugs, he was never as brilliant as he thought he was.

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

[The Huskar Social Union]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

Hjalmar Schacht? Nah he survived the war and died in 1970

[Tsaivao]

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was merely an article of convenience. The Soviets realized that they were not going to be very well-prepared for a war (what with the officer purges), and the Germans didn't want to open a second front when they weren't even sure if they could take down France. Remember, France survived the entirety of WWI, and proved to be a very powerful enemy, so Germany was quite honestly expecting another couple years at least on the French front. Instead, it lasted a couple months. And This sort of insane triumphant victory that the Germans had never quite had before was so intoxicating that some actually believed that the superiority of the aryan race would be enough to triumph over the "judeo-bolshevist" threat in the east.

It is incorrect to say that Nazi Germany and the USSR had a united agenda against the West. I mean, yes, they did help each other out in the aftermath of the MR pact, but Hitler always considered communism the greatest enemy to Nazi Germany. There was always going to be war with the USSR. Hitler talked about it in Mein Kampf, he talked about it in several rallies, and once France fell, the USSR didn't look so difficult.

You can tell that they were thinking a lot about France when invading the USSR, both in general doctrine as well as their overall goals. They believed that the USSR would simply surrender after losing Moscow, similar to France losing Paris. Stalin however already had industry moved to the Ural Mountains, and there were plans in place to keep fighting pretty much indefinitely. The German victory conditions weren't attainable with the supplies they had (or rather, the supplies they didn't have, because the Nazi High Command flat-out ignored the complaints of the logistics officers that this invasion would be extremely difficult to pull off, and so didn't make a huge supply of reserve equipment).

Thus a narrative began to arise that "If dumb ol stupid Hitler didn't break the MR, then they could've won the war by squashing the allies!" Operation Sealion wasn't happening, the British Navy was far too strong, and by 1941 the Battle of Britain was starting to severely tip into the UK's favor as large swaths of the Luftwaffe were turned to wreckage (especially the experimental models whose landing gears caused the deaths of many German pilots). Breaking the allies was not something Germany could have decisively accomplished within a reasonable timeframe, and with the threat looming of Soviet invasion (both from what Stalin was planning to invade in around 1943, as well as Hitler's own paranoia), it was pretty much one of the better moves they could make. Granted, they then didn't prepare well enough at all for the actual invasion, and instead thought that literal aryan willpower will somehow overpower the slavs through... magic, I guess, and Nazi Germany will win the war the same way they won in France.

The truth is that Germany could not have won WWII. Whether or not Germany should or shouldn't have broken the MR pact would have no effect on them getting their asses kicked by almost every major industrial power in the world at that point. Was it dishonorable? Maybe in IM's very wacky definition of honor it could go either way. But the MR pact wasn't about honor, it was about convenience, and when it was no longer convenient, both powers would have taken the leap of faith to squash one-another. In this case, Hitler managed to attack right as Stalin wasn't in a great position, which is how those early successes were so great, but Stalin would've attacked Hitler just two years later, and I don't think the Nazis would have held as well against the USSR would the tables have been turned.

[Ifreann]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

[Punished UMN]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

Goering was like the smartest of the Nazis though. The Nazi war criminals were given psychiatric examinations and IQ tests at the Nuremberg trials, all of them are described as being "Above average or very above average in intelligence" and Goering (and Raeder) were in the upper level of that. In fact, Goering and Raeder both were recorded as being significantly more intelligent than Speer, and Goering was placed about the same as Doenitz. Also worth noting that, among the German general's staff, Goering was highly respected for his intelligence.

The Nazis were evil but there's no need to lie to ourselves that they were stupid, if they were stupid, they wouldn't have been nearly as successful as they were.

[Ethel mermania]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

Schacht died in 1970.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht

[Infected Mushroom]

Looking at the polls, I’m glad to see that the forum is suitably outraged at the dishonorable conduct surrounding the historical NAP... while at the same time the relative closeness of the polls allows for very interesting and balanced discussions

[Bear Stearns]

It was never really an alliance. More of a cold "mind your business" agreement.

[The Restored Danelaw]

It was never really an alliance. More of a cold "mind your business" agreement.

It sure is a cold mind your business agreement when the two countries sign multiple bilateral commercial treaties, partition Eastern Europe between themselves and even work on negotiating Russia taking that one extra mile and becoming an official Axis Member before Hitler remembers that whole thing with his plans on the East thing huh? A war between Germany and Russia was inevitable and both sides knew it, but that didn't mean the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was just either side "Buying more time". Hitler planned on going to war with Italy and Japan too at some point.

[The Free Joy State]

Looking at the polls, I’m glad to see that the forum is suitably outraged at the dishonorable conduct surrounding the historical NAP... while at the same time the relative closeness of the polls allows for very interesting and balanced discussions

I didn't answer the poll. There was no: "Like anyone seriously thought they'd keep the pact? I mean, come on, it's the Nazis we're talking about here" option.

Don't get me wrong, there has been good discussion, mostly about whether Hitler was always incompetent or only after he became a total drug addict.

[Risottia]

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was merely an article of convenience. The Soviets realized that they were not going to be very well-prepared for a war (

More than anything, the Soviet realised that the Brits and the French didn't give a major shit about the Axis' expansionism as long as it didn't touch directly their own interests.
CS - the only democracy in Central Europe at the time - was happily betrayed by its Anglo-French allies, while the Soviets offered to defend it against Hitler. The Spanish Republic was left to the fascists. Nobody cared about China or Mongolia being overrun by Japan. The response to the Italian aggression against Ethiopia and Albania was just some ludicrous economic sanctions. For months the Soviets tried to persuade the Brits and the French to form an alliance and defend Poland against the German aggression that had been openly declared by Hitler at the Reichstag in spring '39. The Soviets knew Hitler was coming at their door with the green light of the Anglo-French. And the only party willing to allow the Soviet Union to gain some time was... Hitler himself.
Only after knowing of the Soviet-German NAP the Anglo-French decided to defend their Polish allies.

[Dolmestan]

I think it was just a truce in both party's eyes. Neither side felt they were ready to fight the other side and were not willing to take a risk. Both sides saw each other as too much of a threat to maintain this pact and if Hitler hadn't broken it, Stalin would have, maybe later but it would have happened.

[The Blaatschapen]

There absolutely were some rather terrifyingly intelligent people in the Nazi government. Speer comes to mind, but Hitler wasn't one of them.

Schacht (the minister of economy) I always had respect for. He dug Germany out of an economic depression, paid off war reparations, and funded one of the fastest military buildups in history. Mostly by using mefo bills. He ended up dead in a concentration camp for opposing the war iirc.

For every Galland there was a Goring. For every Doenitz there was a Raeder. For every Scheer there was a Hitler.

Paid off war reparations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations

The final payment was made on 3 October 2010, settling German loan debts in regard to reparations.

Sure, some was paid during that time I guess, but it was definitely not paid off.

[Risottia]

Sure, some was paid during that time I guess, but it was definitely not paid off.

Germany has always been very good at making itself look good.

[The Blaatschapen]

Sure, some was paid during that time I guess, but it was definitely not paid off.

Germany has always been very good at making itself look good.

I know.

It managed to attract me

[J o J]

It was a phony agreement to partition Poland, besides that Stalin only wanted it to last as long as possible so he could buy time to build up the Red Army and Hitler only wanted it to buy time to deal with the Western Allies first. It wasn't a real NAP in regards to actual commitment to peace between the two parties, it was a sham. I wouldn't really think of this as a normal NAP at all due to the context of the situation, because both of them intended to attack the other eventually anyways.

[Banieland]

I mean, Sure, NAPs matter, until your talking about the fucking nazis?
Like, These guys, who killed Well over 6 million in the holocaust Alone, Entirely Leveled Warsaw to the ground, and won a world record 0 D-days, You thought that they would trust a Pact that, Lets be honest, Everyone knew they were gonna Break? Hitler wasn't exactly the Trustly type, See the Munich Agreement.

[Infected Mushroom]

I think it was just a truce in both party's eyes. Neither side felt they were ready to fight the other side and were not willing to take a risk. Both sides saw each other as too much of a threat to maintain this pact and if Hitler hadn't broken it, Stalin would have, maybe later but it would have happened.

There was no expiration date on the signed paper though.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I think it was just a truce in both party's eyes. Neither side felt they were ready to fight the other side and were not willing to take a risk. Both sides saw each other as too much of a threat to maintain this pact and if Hitler hadn't broken it, Stalin would have, maybe later but it would have happened.

There was no expiration date on the signed paper though.

Doesnt matter, it was always going to be broken.

[Imperial Rifta]

Nazi Germany betraying the Soviet Union was an inevitability. Hitler viewed Communism as an existential threat and Stalin knew this. His hope was to delay the war until 1942, which didn't work out so well.

Yes. Dolmestan is also right.

It’s dishonorable, but why should Germany care. it’s justifiable in their eyes. They (Nazi Germany) want to take over Europe, Asia, the world. If they did... Who cares about a treaty if it doesn’t matter after you are the last government on Earth, and can dispose of anyone on the planet that questions it. It was going to be broken sooner or later. The Soviet’s would eventually, assuming Germany and the Axis were the Allies’ kicking butt, knowing that they (the USSR) were next.

---

So in the end, they shouldn’t have, I don’t think they should have, but... imperialism is never satisfied. I’m going with number one.