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Wuhan Lab Might be COVID Origin

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:21 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Galloism wrote:

Read between the lines.


I did. That's still quite different than ''Mexicans are rapists''. Pretty sure he's referring to illegal immigrants.

Legal immigrants don't wear a state issued sticker on their forehead.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:22 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Galloism wrote:

Read between the lines.


I did. That's still quite different than ''Mexicans are rapists''. Pretty sure he's referring to illegal immigrants.

And the illegal immigrants where Mexicans.

Therefor: Mexicans are rapists.

All X are Y fallacy.

But even giving the benefit of the doubt for debate, hypothetically if Trump hadn't said that Mexicans are rapists then my point still stands.

He was full of shit from candidacy to leaving the presidency.

Here is a right leaning source saying that he would drastically lower the national debt while in office. Same thing but left leaning.

Debt before he took office. Debt a few months after he left office.

He lied on the campaign trail many many many times. He lied when leaving the Whitehouse.

His whole time in politics from 2016 to 2021 was full of shit.

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:26 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
I did. That's still quite different than ''Mexicans are rapists''. Pretty sure he's referring to illegal immigrants.

And the illegal immigrants where Mexicans.

Therefor: Mexicans are rapists.

Wrong. Also, illegals aren't just Mexican some come from other countries in Latin America.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:32 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:And the illegal immigrants where Mexicans.

Therefor: Mexicans are rapists.

Wrong. Also, illegals aren't just Mexican some come from other countries in Latin America.


Then why didn't he mention that? He only said Mexican.

And again, you are missing the point. He lied in 2016. He lied in 2021. He is continuing to lie to even this day.

He is an unreliable source of information. When he stumbles on the odd truthful thing, no one believes it because he is a known liar.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:33 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

And the illegal immigrants where Mexicans.

Therefor: Mexicans are rapists.

Wrong. Also, illegals aren't just Mexican some come from other countries in Latin America.


Though correct (thinking of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador) you are overlooking people being stupid. Especially the ones who are all about the border. Ever notice when that fight was going on there was little or no interaction/news coverage with the people who actually live near the border? Anyway; you say illegal immigrant and there is a pretty decent chance the person will think Mexican.

Trump may not have said all are rapists however he did suggest MS13 was coming over here in droves.
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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:11 pm

Galloism wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
I did. That's still quite different than ''Mexicans are rapists''. Pretty sure he's referring to illegal immigrants.

Legal immigrants don't wear a state issued sticker on their forehead.


Ok and? He didn't say ''Mexicans are rapists'', that would mean that all Mexicans or Mexicans in general which he clearly wasn't implying, he's obviously referring to illegal immigrants who aren't all Mexican.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:17 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Wrong. Also, illegals aren't just Mexican some come from other countries in Latin America.


Then why didn't he mention that? He only said Mexican.

And again, you are missing the point. He lied in 2016. He lied in 2021. He is continuing to lie to even this day.

He is an unreliable source of information. When he stumbles on the odd truthful thing, no one believes it because he is a known liar.


*sigh* Let's take this to TG, shall we? All of you.

Lord give me the fucking patience....
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:33 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:It's hilarious to watch left-winged media outlets in the USA such as CNN pathetically justify why they dismissed this theory soley because it was proposed by Trump, as if they couldn't actually do their own research

It was incredibly blatant free speech censorship and I hope to see them all collapse from a lack of viewership. This was the biggest American censorship operation in history. The Democratic Party screams "CONSPIRACY", "RACISM", and/or "TRUMPIST" at anything they don't like and now people are starting to notice

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:17 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:It's hilarious to watch left-winged media outlets in the USA such as CNN pathetically justify why they dismissed this theory soley because it was proposed by Trump, as if they couldn't actually do their own research

It was incredibly blatant free speech censorship and I hope to see them all collapse from a lack of viewership. This was the biggest American censorship operation in history. The Democratic Party screams "CONSPIRACY", "RACISM", and/or "TRUMPIST" at anything they don't like and now people are starting to notice

Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:22 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:It was incredibly blatant free speech censorship and I hope to see them all collapse from a lack of viewership. This was the biggest American censorship operation in history. The Democratic Party screams "CONSPIRACY", "RACISM", and/or "TRUMPIST" at anything they don't like and now people are starting to notice

Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:28 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.



If this was censorship, the media wouldn't talk about it.

They did in fact talk about it. And they called it a shitty theory at the time for the reason that the source (Trump) was full shit.

Then a bunch of retards circlejerked the real conspiracy theory that COVID was a bioweapon to try and get there dream of WW3 to come true.

That isn't how you gain credibility and only made the idea sound more insane.

Now of course we know that the Wuhan lab might have leaked it, but at the time it sounded just like another load of Trump branded bullshit.

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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:48 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:You can blame the PRC for lieing about how bad covid is and possibly being irresponsible with there lab standards.


You'd be hard pressed to find any national government (New Zealand, maybe) who didn't 'lie about how bad covid is' and act in an irresponsible way with it.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:53 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.


There is no 'legitimate' theory.

From the very start, the most likely route of the virus into the human population has been direct exposure. While that direct exposure COULD have included a lab setting, it's an unnecessary extra step with no evidence to support it.

And this issue has been confused by conspiracy theorists insisting that the virus was not just released from a lab, but deliberately released from a lab, AND engineered in the lab for the purpose of release. Both of which 'theories' are incredibly unlikely, given what we know of the science.

The media choosing not to peddle baseless conspiracy theories that are actually contrary to the evidence is not 'censorship', it's good journalism.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:58 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.


Eh? What theory was that?
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:05 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Galloism wrote:Legal immigrants don't wear a state issued sticker on their forehead.


Ok and? He didn't say ''Mexicans are rapists'', that would mean that all Mexicans or Mexicans in general which he clearly wasn't implying, he's obviously referring to illegal immigrants who aren't all Mexican.

Trump supporters generally don’t know the different between different Latin American groups, with one Fox News article referring to several nations of Central America as “Mexican countries”.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:07 am

Great Algerstonia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Censorship is when a bad source that lies is called out to be a bad source that lies.

The worse the source the more censorship it is.

"This was the biggest American censorship operation in history." Give me a break man. You can't just claim things like that on a whim.

What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.


No it fucking wasn't lmao, this is so ridiculous I refuse to believe you actually think it. The Red Scare led to entire movements being legally banned, American citizens assassinated by the FBI etc etc. It was so much worse than you seem to think.
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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:36 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.


No it fucking wasn't lmao, this is so ridiculous I refuse to believe you actually think it. The Red Scare led to entire movements being legally banned, American citizens assassinated by the FBI etc etc. It was so much worse than you seem to think.

I suppose it was, I was unaware of the latter. View changed

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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:40 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:What censorship operation was worse than American government, every mainstream media, and every social media collaborating to censor out a theory that now looks legitimate, and harassing anyone that speaks out? This was worse than the Red Scare.


There is no 'legitimate' theory.

From the very start, the most likely route of the virus into the human population has been direct exposure. While that direct exposure COULD have included a lab setting, it's an unnecessary extra step with no evidence to support it.

And this issue has been confused by conspiracy theorists insisting that the virus was not just released from a lab, but deliberately released from a lab, AND engineered in the lab for the purpose of release. Both of which 'theories' are incredibly unlikely, given what we know of the science.

The media choosing not to peddle baseless conspiracy theories that are actually contrary to the evidence is not 'censorship', it's good journalism.

Theyre not baseless. If it was baseless, then there wouldnt be strong bipartisan support to defund the wuhan institute of virology. Nor would the CDC state it's a direct possibility.

And who cares that it was inflated by conspiracy theorists, if the CDC discounts a theory because of a bunch of conspiracies then they are extremely bad at their jobs

And theres no such thing as good journalism anymore, more like "good activism" with a journalism nametag sticker

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Postby Greater Kopmakia » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:51 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
No it fucking wasn't lmao, this is so ridiculous I refuse to believe you actually think it. The Red Scare led to entire movements being legally banned, American citizens assassinated by the FBI etc etc. It was so much worse than you seem to think.

I suppose it was, I was unaware of the latter. View changed


Huh. Rare to see people changing their minds nowadays. Respect.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:15 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:Theyre not baseless. If it was baseless, then there wouldnt be strong bipartisan support to defund the wuhan institute of virology.


Nope. They're baseless. The amount of support, from one side of the aisle or the other, is irrelevant. Science isn't determined by what is politically popular.

Great Algerstonia wrote:Nor would the CDC state it's a direct possibility.


The CDC saying that it is a 'possibility' that a virus could have been accidentally released from a lab is a statement of fact. It IS a possibility, albeit a remote one.

I feel you don't understand science - the fact that it's POSSIBLE you're just a random-response generator rather than an actual human person posting answers doesn't mean you are... or even that it's likely. But you COULD be.

Great Algerstonia wrote:And who cares that it was inflated by conspiracy theorists, if the CDC discounts a theory because of a bunch of conspiracies then they are extremely bad at their jobs


No, that's how science works. You base the theory on the evidence, not the other way around.

Great Algerstonia wrote:And theres no such thing as good journalism anymore, more like "good activism" with a journalism nametag sticker


Your opinion is interesting, but irrelevant. You can objectively measure whether it is 'good journalism' by assessing whether it's based on facts or opinions.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:02 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:No, that's how science works. You base the theory on the evidence, not the other way around.

You say this as if science wasn't as beholden to those funding it as every other job.
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:09 am

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:No, that's how science works. You base the theory on the evidence, not the other way around.

You say this as if science wasn't as beholden to those funding it as every other job.


Funding does not alter evidence.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:12 am

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
No it fucking wasn't lmao, this is so ridiculous I refuse to believe you actually think it. The Red Scare led to entire movements being legally banned, American citizens assassinated by the FBI etc etc. It was so much worse than you seem to think.

I suppose it was, I was unaware of the latter. View changed


You should look into the story of Fred Hampton. He was a Black Panthers member who was drugged by an FBI informant and then shot to death in a police raid while he was still knocked out from the drugs. Clear cut assassination because he was a leftist making inroads with both the white and black communities.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:53 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:No, that's how science works. You base the theory on the evidence, not the other way around.

You say this as if science wasn't as beholden to those funding it as every other job.


Funding isn't as much of as an issue as you seem to think.

Is it possible that certain results can be deliberately fostered by the injection of funding? Absolutely - and most scientists can spot that at a mile off. Look at the study you're reviewing, look at the interests involved in it. Look for conflict.

Is it possible that certain results can even be suppressed, where they are not convenient? Absolutely. We see that all the time, especially in corporate science, where non-disclosures gag scientists. The truth usually comes out eventually, but it can take a while - and cost a lot of lives.

But in general, science isn't as governed by funding as you seem to think, because science is GLOBAL. You could argue that a scientist in the US might be compelled to argue a certain idea - but the peer-review process involves voices from around the world, and powers that are politically hostile to us have little incentive to support a politically expedient idea.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:21 am

Posted without further comment:


Leading biologist dampens his ‘smoking gun’ Covid lab leak theory
Nobel laureate David Baltimore says he overstated case, and the origins of the virus are still unknown

A Nobel prize-winning US biologist, who has been widely quoted describing a “smoking gun” to support the thesis that Covid-19 was genetically modified and escaped from a Wuhan lab, has said he overstated the case.

David Baltimore, a distinguished biology professor, had become one of the most prominent figures cited by proponents of the so-called lab leak theory.

Originally quoted in an article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists in May, and widely requoted since, Baltimore had appeared to suggest that a specific feature in Covid-19’s genome, known as the furin cleavage site, was the “smoking gun” to the theory the virus had been contained inside a laboratory and then escaped via a leak.

“These features make a powerful challenge to the idea of a natural origin for Sars2,” he said at the time.

In recent days, however, Baltimore has told a fellow researcher, the scientific journal Nature and the LA Times that – while he had been quoted accurately in the bulletin – he should not have used the phrase “smoking gun” and was uncertain what the feature proved regarding the origins of the virus – natural or otherwise.

In an email exchange with the Los Angeles Times, Baltimore conceded he had overstated the case and that he had an open mind on the matter.

“[I] should have softened the phrase ‘smoking gun’ because I don’t believe that it proves the origin of the furin cleavage site but it does sound that way.

“I believe that the question of whether the sequence was put in naturally or by molecular manipulation is very hard to determine but I wouldn’t rule out either origin.”

Baltimore also clarified his stance in an exchange with Nature, saying: “There are other possibilities and they need careful consideration, which is all I meant to be saying.”

Given his considerable reputation, Baltimore’s dramatic “smoking gun” quote in early May had driven a lot of the recent resurgence of interest in the Wuhan lab leak theory in tandem with renewed reporting of unverified intelligence claims that three staff at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalised in November 2019 with symptoms consistent either with Covid-19 or seasonal flu.

That in turn led the US president, Joe Biden, to order intelligence agencies to report back in 90 days on what was known about the origins of the virus, amid calls from the World Health Organization to “depoliticise” the debate around how Covid-19 first infected humans.

Biden’s call is set to be underlined in a joint statement by the US and the EU which is expected to call for “progress on a transparent, evidence-based, and expert-led WHO-convened phase 2 study on the origins of Covid-19, that is free from interference”.

In the midst of the renewed controversy, one of the key scientific debates has drilled down into whether the virus’s furin cleavage site is so novel that it occurred through human manipulation rather than evolving naturally.

Supporting the latter theory, some scientists point out that the same feature occurs in other common coronaviruses including ones that cause colds and that it appears intermittently in the family tree of coronaviruses.

Baltimore’s clarification came as he was also challenged in Nature on another of his claims relating to Covid-19, that the coding of a segment found in the furin cleavage site was not usually found in viruses, with a fellow scientist pointing out the same coding was also a feature of the Sars virus.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... eak-theory

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