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The Time Machine (A Question of Morality)

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Australian rePublic
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The Time Machine (A Question of Morality)

Postby Australian rePublic » Mon May 24, 2021 6:12 am

Assuming that morality is subjective, I propose the following hypotethetical.

Let's say you have a time machine and use it to travel to different periods in time, and across to one alternate world. So you go back in time and you bring back with you Ghana's Khan, Alexander the Great, George III (King of England) and a person from an alternate timeline in the 21st Century, where everything is the same, except for the fact that the NAZIs won the second world war.

You bring these people to our timeline in the 21st Century. After adjusting to life in the twenty-first century, these men now start to try to accomplish their goals

Genghis Khan sees Inner Mongolia ruled by the Chinese, and wishes to return his people's homeland, so he takes charge of the Mongolian army and launches a campaign against the Chinese, insisting that he will take back Inner Mongolia, no matter how many Chinese or other civilians he has to kill in the process

Alex the Great wishes reconquer his empire, and is willing to throw the Indigenous populations off their lands, desires to rule over part of the Middle East, and believes that he can solve the Israel-Palestine conflict by ruling over the land himself

George III wish to reclaim America, and is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. He's even willing to imprison any of his opponents, even if that means imprisoning all 350,000,000 inhabitants of the USA

The man from the alternate 21st Century has spent his whole life believing that the NAZIs were a benevolent organisation, and that Hitler was a true hero. Almost everyone in his timeline believes that Hitler was a great hero who did good for the world, and anyone who opposes this beliefe is considered insane. Further, this guy believes that the whole situation in the Middle East would have been avoided, if like in his time, Hitler had completed the job and eliminated the Jews, as there would be no Israel for the Israelis and Palestians to fight over

So the question is this- if morality is subjective- do you judge any of those men as immoral? If so, what do you bade that upon? Alex the Great thinks that by ruling over the Middle East benevolently, he will bring peace to the region, which was not too far from the morality of the time. Genghis Khanwishes to liberate his people from an oppressor, which means that by the moral standards of his time and culture, he was very moralistic, George III believed he had an obligation to British subjects to ensure they were the most powerful empire in the world so that the British themselves would never be oppressed, which again, was common to the morality of his culture and era, and the guy from the NAZI timeline was brought up in a world which believed that the NAZIs were doing good things. So, then, would you judge these men as immoral, and on what basis?
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Mon May 24, 2021 6:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dogmeat
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Postby Dogmeat » Mon May 24, 2021 6:19 am

Ghana's Khan

I confess I don't know that much about Ivory Coast history. Are the Mongols popular in Sub-Saharan Africa? Do they ride zebras?
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon May 24, 2021 6:28 am

Dogmeat wrote:
Ghana's Khan

I confess I don't know that much about Ivory Coast history. Are the Mongols popular in Sub-Saharan Africa? Do they ride zebras?

Ghangis Khan. Bloody Auto-correct. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Mon May 24, 2021 6:28 am

I like how you try to question if morality is subjective by giving examples of morality being different in different times and different societies ;)
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon May 24, 2021 6:38 am

The Alma Mater wrote:I like how you try to question if morality is subjective by giving examples of morality being different in different times and different societies ;)

Ok then, so let's apply this to the real world twenty-first century, shall we? Would you judge Israel as immoral for intentionally or otherwise killing Palestian civilians? Would you judge anyone who supports colonialism as immoral? Would you judge neo-NAZIs as immoral? And on what basis?
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Postby Pinguioris » Mon May 24, 2021 6:47 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:I confess I don't know that much about Ivory Coast history. Are the Mongols popular in Sub-Saharan Africa? Do they ride zebras?

Ghangis Khan. Bloody Auto-correct. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it

Ghenghis Khan, Ghenghis. As for morality, I believe that it is objective, love is the ultimate good, hate is the ultimate bad.

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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon May 24, 2021 7:05 am

George III would quickly be reminded that he was and still is a constitutional monarch and can't just imprison people.
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon May 24, 2021 7:10 am

By the standards of their time, they were good or acceptable rulers, but in the modern day of human rights, they'd be nightmares.

Except the Nazi, even by the standards of the 20th century, the Nazis were near universally considered evil.
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Postby Lady Victory » Mon May 24, 2021 8:27 am

This is an absurd scenario for a variety of reasons.

I only wish I had the time to point them all out.
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Postby Heloin » Mon May 24, 2021 8:36 am

The first thing I'd do with a time machine is go to Stephen Hawking time traveller party. I wouldn't see any need to show these famous historical figures the future since their opinion on the subject matter doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. That and the historical George III showed no interest in what you just described.

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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon May 24, 2021 8:42 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:By the standards of their time, they were good or acceptable rulers, but in the modern day of human rights, they'd be nightmares.

Except the Nazi, even by the standards of the 20th century, the Nazis were near universally considered evil.


I think Genghis was pretty bad even for his time. He went around killing everybody.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Mon May 24, 2021 9:51 am

I'd rather just save Harambe.
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Postby Alvecia » Mon May 24, 2021 9:56 am

I would judge them by my personal standards and/or the standards of the society in which I reside.

That they were raised differently isn't particularly relevant, I'd do the same of anyone born in the present day that held their same moral standards.

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Postby Punished UMN » Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 am

I question how much you know about Alexander the Great or George III if you think they would be particularly interested in brutalizing the civilian population.
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Postby Lady Victory » Mon May 24, 2021 11:10 am

Punished UMN wrote:I question how much you know about Alexander the Great or George III if you think they would be particularly interested in brutalizing the civilian population.


Yeah, this was my biggest objection as well. Lack of understanding of the historical figures. Alexander wasn't the ethnic cleansing type and George III wasn't the brutal tyrant some make him out to be.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon May 24, 2021 11:14 am

Punished UMN wrote:I question how much you know about Alexander the Great or George III if you think they would be particularly interested in brutalizing the civilian population.


Time Traveller: Alright, Georgey boy what wars do you wanna start?

George: Well actually under British law I'm not authorized to start wars. That is technically the cabinet's responsibility, which is led by the prime Minister. Besides, I just want to have a jubilee.

Time traveller: So what can you do?

George: Give my opinion on how I feel about the war the cabinet declared. I have started some fashion trends though in my time.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Mon May 24, 2021 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon May 24, 2021 11:17 am

Imagine Alexander the Great running into Westboro Baptist Church and seeing a sign saying "homosexuality earns you a ticket to hell." It would not be a fun day to be part of WBC.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Alaska Hawaii and the Aleutes
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Postby Alaska Hawaii and the Aleutes » Mon May 24, 2021 11:31 am

These historical men don't have a "home" in the modern world. Their home is in history / an alternate timeline, so they shouldn't try to force their opinion onto the people living there, those people have their own morals, a different culture now. Should they not try to force it onto others or hurt people in the process, I could really care less, even if they are some important people from the past or an alternate timeline. The best thing in my opinion, would've been not to bring them into the present at all. Their morals have a place in their time, not in our world which has gone through so much change.

The past is the past. The present is the present. Alternate realities are alternate realities. Cultures change, so do morals. Opinions should not be forced.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Mon May 24, 2021 11:32 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Imagine Alexander the Great running into Westboro Baptist Church and seeing a sign saying "homosexuality earns you a ticket to hell." It would not be a fun day to be part of WBC.

Have a friend who wrote their thesis on literary arguments for Alexander the Great being a bottom.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon May 24, 2021 11:36 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Imagine Alexander the Great running into Westboro Baptist Church and seeing a sign saying "homosexuality earns you a ticket to hell." It would not be a fun day to be part of WBC.

Have a friend who wrote their thesis on literary arguments for Alexander the Great being a bottom.


At least he didn't write a thesis on Octavian being a bottom. A Roman emperor would start a full fledged war over the accusation.
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Mon May 24, 2021 12:12 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
Ghana's Khan

I confess I don't know that much about Ivory Coast history. Are the Mongols popular in Sub-Saharan Africa? Do they ride zebras?


Asking the really important questions here. :lol:
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Mon May 24, 2021 12:18 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Have a friend who wrote their thesis on literary arguments for Alexander the Great being a bottom.


At least he didn't write a thesis on Octavian being a bottom. A Roman emperor would start a full fledged war over the accusation.

His argument was that there is literary evidence by the time of Alexander's lifetime that it was commonly understood that Achilles was the receiving partner to Patroclus, and since Alexander and Hephaestion modelled their relationship on the pair, with Alexander being Achilles, may imply that Alexander was the receiving partner to Hephaestion.
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon May 24, 2021 12:18 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Imagine Alexander the Great running into Westboro Baptist Church and seeing a sign saying "homosexuality earns you a ticket to hell." It would not be a fun day to be part of WBC.

Have a friend who wrote their thesis on literary arguments for Alexander the Great being a bottom.


That's probably the most epic paper I've ever heard of.
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Postby Kowani » Mon May 24, 2021 12:18 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
Ghana's Khan

I confess I don't know that much about Ivory Coast history. Are the Mongols popular in Sub-Saharan Africa? Do they ride zebras?

the mongols would be the people who finally domesticate zebras...
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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Mon May 24, 2021 2:00 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
At least he didn't write a thesis on Octavian being a bottom. A Roman emperor would start a full fledged war over the accusation.

His argument was that there is literary evidence by the time of Alexander's lifetime that it was commonly understood that Achilles was the receiving partner to Patroclus, and since Alexander and Hephaestion modelled their relationship on the pair, with Alexander being Achilles, may imply that Alexander was the receiving partner to Hephaestion.


I, for one, did not need to know any of this.
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