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Belarus Forces Ryanair to Land in Minsk to Arrest Journalist

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 1:45 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well I know the EU is highly unlikely to actually ever grow a spine and stand up to this sort of thing, the point is that Russia only maintains any sphere of influence in Eastern Europe because the EU allows it through political weakness.


The mistake here is in assuming that there is no pro-Russian element in any of these countries. Which there is. Especially in the Ukraine, which is as much a nonsensical country as the various Sykes-Picot Frankenstein states in the Middle East.

Novus America wrote:And clearly the EU is lacking willing to respond to Russian and Belarusian trolling, given they simply let Putin and even Lukashenka push them around with impunity. It is like a grown man getting bullied by a 5 year old. It is just sad.


Ah yes because the thing you always do with a troll is to flip over the table and get real mad

That always works


Well the Pro Russian element in Ukraine was ironically largely destroyed by Russia. What remains of Ukraine is more united than it ever was. But you are right, there is a substantial pro Russian element in Europe, bizarrely amongst the neoliberals and their mega corporations, the far left and the far right. That always fascinates me, how Russia has the sympathy of neoliberals like Merkel, Communists, and Neo Nazis.

But on a troll that is more what we are doing already. We get mad, we cry, complain and that only emboldens them. The best thing to do with a troll is not complain as we have been doing, the best thing is to troll them back, or ban them.
I am not even mad about what Belarus did, what makes me mad is not them doing what we expect them to do, what makes me mad is we are not taking appropriate countermeasures.

You do not simply do nothing or trolls will completely overrun your site.

Sometimes you can smile when the troll actually did something funny. You still ban them.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon May 24, 2021 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon May 24, 2021 1:48 pm


Remain seized on the matter?
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Mon May 24, 2021 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 1:49 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
This is why you do not spank an adult and ex spect it to work. It really does not hurt them.


Depends how big a stick the EU uses. And I think Europe will have US backing on this one, unlike last year when Trump was around.

We'll see.


Flogging is different than spanking. Flogging works, spanking a lot of people actually enjoy.
I doubt it though. Europe is afraid to take any real action, and the US is completely out of the game.

Biden just folded to Russia on the pipeline, despite both parties in Congress criticizing him. Berlin will water down any sanctions to nothing, and Biden will go along with whatever Berlin tells him to do.

Again see the pipeline.
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Last edited by Novus America on Mon May 24, 2021 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon May 24, 2021 1:50 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:

Remain seized on the matter?


Seized of the matter.

Diplo talk for we are pissed off and we aren't forgetting about this.
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Mon May 24, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 1:52 pm



Did whoever wrote that even know English? It looks like a Google translation. “remain seized”?
Why cannot diplomats use plain English instead of this poorly written wishy washy garbage?

Anyways as expected:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc22CFhDBEM
Last edited by Novus America on Mon May 24, 2021 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Mon May 24, 2021 3:17 pm

Novus America wrote: Why cannot diplomats use plain English instead of this poorly written wishy washy garbage?

Because it’s convention. When you write a cordial diplomatic note, you conclude with a statement about reaffirming your relationship with the other party. When you draft a resolution you conclude with a phrase declaring your commitment to the issue at hand.

Silly, yes, for those not immersed in that culture, but then again many such things are. Are you going to complain about, oh, the practice of standing when a judge enters a courtroom next?
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon May 24, 2021 3:20 pm

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm

Shofercia wrote:he EU allowed Obama to force a diplomatic aircraft to land on EU soil,

So perhaps we should be sanctioning the United States too, although it’s probably too optimistic to say that such diplomatic pressure can get the United States to behave like a reasonable actor on the international stage.

The primary difference between American diplomats and gang enforcers, generally, seems to be the amount of money they have to spent on ceremony.
Last edited by Northern Socialist Council Republics on Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 3:40 pm

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Novus America wrote: Why cannot diplomats use plain English instead of this poorly written wishy washy garbage?

Because it’s convention. When you write a cordial diplomatic note, you conclude with a statement about reaffirming your relationship with the other party. When you draft a resolution you conclude with a phrase declaring your commitment to the issue at hand.

Silly, yes, for those not immersed in that culture, but then again many such things are. Are you going to complain about, oh, the practice of standing when a judge enters a courtroom next?


I would complain, if standing for the judge was causing problems. Sometimes if you want to make a point, you have to make that point. Sometimes you have to use firm, commanding, clear language.

I do complain that many judges write poorly written opinions in an excessively verbose manner that normal people never would use. The fact that you have to have a good working knowledge of Latin and Yiddish to read many court opinions is problematic. It is convention for judges to often write like that. It is not a good one though. Many judges are absolutely awful writers. You have to slog through pages of that excessively verbose silliness to get to the point.

Sometimes conventions are good, but sometimes they are bad. Just because something is a convention does not make it good. Trying to cling to convention when our foreign policies of the past 30 years or so have been a catastrophe, is not a good idea. Why stick with convention if our conventions are failing?

We should not try to be cordial when dealing with situations like this. I bet Putin and Lukashenko are laughing their asses off after reading that. It is not going to make them want to change their policies.

If your adversaries look a you as weak, wishy washy and spineless, and you write your diplomatic correspondence in a manner that reinforces that opinion, well can you blame them?
Last edited by Novus America on Mon May 24, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon May 24, 2021 3:45 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Remain seized on the matter?


Seized of the matter.

Diplo talk for we are pissed off and we aren't forgetting about this.

I thought that was "grave concern "
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Mon May 24, 2021 3:46 pm

Will the EU actually enforce its ban against Belarus using its air space, is the big question?

Belarus might perhaps assume that the EU militaries are weak or don't have the will to enforce a no fly order and will perhaps experiment with sending one airplane through EU air space anyways, just to see what happens. I don't see Germany or France for example, shooting a Belarus plane down if there are any civilians on board, even if fighter jets intercepted the plane on its flight path.
Last edited by Saiwania on Mon May 24, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon May 24, 2021 3:47 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Seized of the matter.

Diplo talk for we are pissed off and we aren't forgetting about this.

I thought that was "grave concern "


Grave concern is just we're pissed off. Seized of the matter adds in the not forgetting bit.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon May 24, 2021 3:49 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I thought that was "grave concern "


Grave concern is just we're pissed off. Seized of the matter adds in the not forgetting bit.


Thanks, I need a better dictionary
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon May 24, 2021 3:51 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Grave concern is just we're pissed off. Seized of the matter adds in the not forgetting bit.


Thanks, I need a better dictionary


You know the bit in the NS rules about erudite slams still being flaming? That's basically most of diplomatic talk. I love it.

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Postby Ifreann » Mon May 24, 2021 3:55 pm

Saiwania wrote:Will the EU actually enforce its ban against Belarus using its air space, is the big question?

Belarus might perhaps assume that the EU militaries are weak

You know you can just Google the size of national armed forces, yeah?
or don't have the will to enforce a no fly order and will perhaps experiment with sending one airplace through EU air space anyways, just to see what happens. I don't see Germany or France for example, shooting a Belarus plane down if there are any civilians on board, even if fighter jets intercepted the plane.

I think you might need to check a map of Europe. A modern map.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 4:08 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Saiwania wrote:Will the EU actually enforce its ban against Belarus using its air space, is the big question?

Belarus might perhaps assume that the EU militaries are weak

You know you can just Google the size of national armed forces, yeah?
or don't have the will to enforce a no fly order and will perhaps experiment with sending one airplace through EU air space anyways, just to see what happens. I don't see Germany or France for example, shooting a Belarus plane down if there are any civilians on board, even if fighter jets intercepted the plane.

I think you might need to check a map of Europe. A modern map.


Well size alone is not the greatest measure. For example in 2015 only 42 of 109 German fighters could actually fly. The rest being grounded because of lack of maintenance and parts. There was also the infamous broomstick incident which while itself was not as significant as the real numbers, was certainly an emblematic of the problem.

Many European militaries have extremely low material readiness levels, which means on fraction of their actual paper strength.

But more than anything here it is lack of political will. The fact the German Army could not fight its way out of a wet paper bag is less relevant than the unwillingness to impose real diplomatic and economic sanctions. Obviously the EU is not going to start a war over this (although having a strong military still commands respect), but the fact the EU will only respond with a handful of sanctions, mostly against individuals who were already sanctioned is not going to work. Belarus is not a all going to change its behavior because why should they?

If you can keep getting away with something, why not keep doing it?

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Postby Shofercia » Mon May 24, 2021 4:15 pm

Dresderstan wrote:

Weak and spineless, who could seen this coming. Oh right everyone who knows how shit Europe is when it comes to Belarus.


And that's where I disagree. It wasn't an EU citizen that was detained over EU airspace. It was a non-EU citizen detained over Belarus' airspace, which he voluntarily entered, despite being a wanted fugitive in Belarus. The EU has no obligation to act.


Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Depends how big a stick the EU uses. And I think Europe will have US backing on this one, unlike last year when Trump was around.

We'll see.


Flogging is different than spanking. Flogging works, spanking a lot of people actually enjoy.
I doubt it though. Europe is afraid to take any real action, and the US is completely out of the game.

Biden just folded to Russia on the pipeline, despite both parties in Congress criticizing him. Berlin will water down any sanctions to nothing, and Biden will go along with whatever Berlin tells him to do.

Again see the pipeline.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnew ... cna1267975

Trump was a loose cannon. Biden is just a spineless empty suit.


Biden folded to Germany on the pipeline. Not Russia. Or wait, did Russia already annex Germany?

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/mark ... e-tensions

German foreign minister Heiko Maas has rejected calls for the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project to be halted amid increased tensions between Russia and Ukraine, warning that such action could lead to a further escalation. Germany has continued to back the controversial 55 Bcm/year Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which is now 95% complete, despite opposition from the US and countries in eastern Europe. "The position of the German government has always been clear," Maas said.


You can't even call a spade a spade anymore, as Germany is now magically Russia in your eyes. If Germany wasn't backing it, Biden wouldn't have folded. As thus, Biden folded to Germany, not Russia.


Saiwania wrote:Will the EU actually enforce its ban against Belarus using its air space, is the big question?

Belarus might perhaps assume that the EU militaries are weak or don't have the will to enforce a no fly order and will perhaps experiment with sending one airplane through EU air space anyways, just to see what happens. I don't see Germany or France for example, shooting a Belarus plane down if there are any civilians on board, even if fighter jets intercepted the plane on its flight path.


What is it with you and Lumen wanting to test the patience of jet fighter pilots in this thread?
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Mon May 24, 2021 4:49 pm

Shofercia wrote:What is it with you and Lumen wanting to test the patience of jet fighter pilots in this thread?

Just gonna leave this here...
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon May 24, 2021 5:00 pm

Portal to the first concentric realm located under Minsk. Belarusians have found a way to bypass the ice wall.

Giants will rise from the seas and attack.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Mon May 24, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon May 24, 2021 5:02 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Portal to the first concentric realm located under Minsk. Belarusians have found a way to bypass the ice wall.

Giants will rise from the seas and attack.

*looms ominously* Knock off the spam.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon May 24, 2021 5:12 pm

___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Mon May 24, 2021 7:23 pm

But journalists are enemies of the people amiright? They all deserve to have their phone records searched correct? Why not arrest them in your airspace?
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Mon May 24, 2021 7:32 pm

Novus America wrote:


Did whoever wrote that even know English? It looks like a Google translation. “remain seized”?
Why cannot diplomats use plain English instead of this poorly written wishy washy garbage?

Anyways as expected:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc22CFhDBEM


Having employed similar verbage in a previous life this looks pretty plain to me. The EC doesn't like what just happened in Belarus, is taking the strongest actions it can take within its own authority (e.g. sanctioning more folks) and giving cover to its member nations and their airlines to do things like shut down air traffic in and out of Belarus. Declarations such as this tend to unleash small armies of paper- and cookie-pushers who sooner rather than later make life tougher for the offending nation and its agents. Short of calling out the troops it's pretty damn tough.
"The violence of American law enforcement degrades the lives of countless people, especially poor Black people, through its peculiar appetite for their death." | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "Today's Republican Party is America's and the world's largest white supremacist organization." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly |"Republicans...have transformed...to a fascist party engaged in a takeover of the United States of America."

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