Five Oregon Counties vote to Join Idaho

[Paddy O Fernature]

I don't get the big deal Voter ID is free or Relatively Inexpensive in most states. All you need is Birth Certificate, SS Card, and Proof of Residence in that State. It's because the same as a drivers License without the test.

What does this have to do with the topic?

Gee, I dunno how a discussion about the voting process made it's way into a thread about a vote that took place.

It's a mystery I tell you.

[Punished UMN]

I personally think a literacy test should be required to vote. Everyone goes to public school and has no excuse to be illiterate. If you can't read and Comprehend what you're voting for does the vote even matter?

It's like how the elderly lose their driving privileges when they are no longer able to drive. If you can't understand what you're voting for you shouldn't be voting. That's why I don't want 16 year olds to vote. 16 year olds are still kids and just getting into the real world. The Argument could be made to raise the voting Age to 21 since the human brain isn't fully developed until the early 20s.

The rise of Democratic Socialists can be fully explained by inexperienced and Naive kids voting. Nobody who has worked and started a family seriously supports Socialism. Whall we're at it the draft should be raised to 21.

The purpose of voting isn't for voters to set policy, and voters don't, it's about being reprsented in the electorate, so that the government will (hopefully) act in your interests. Illiterate people and young adults may indeed be less able to comprehend policy, but most voters probably don't know anything about policy. One's knowledge of policy doesn't determine how much that policy affects them.

[San Lumen]

I personally think a literacy test should be required to vote. Everyone goes to public school and has no excuse to be illiterate. If you can't read and Comprehend what you're voting for does the vote even matter?

It's like how the elderly lose their driving privileges when they are no longer able to drive. If you can't understand what you're voting for you shouldn't be voting. That's why I don't want 16 year olds to vote. 16 year olds are still kids and just getting into the real world. The Argument could be made to raise the voting Age to 21 since the human brain isn't fully developed until the early 20s.

The rise of Democratic Socialists can be fully explained by inexperienced and Naive kids voting. Nobody who has worked and started a family seriously supports Socialism. Whall we're at it the draft should be raised to 21.

The purpose of voting isn't for voters to set policy, and voters don't, it's about being reprsented in the electorate, so that the government will (hopefully) act in your interests. Illiterate people and young adults may indeed be less able to comprehend policy, but most voters probably don't know anything about policy. One's knowledge of policy doesn't determine how much that policy affects them.

Those tests could easily be misused to prevent people from voting. That's what was done in the South. The tests were notoriously difficult to pass.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

I personally think a literacy test should be required to vote. Everyone goes to public school and has no excuse to be illiterate. If you can't read and Comprehend what you're voting for does the vote even matter?

It's like how the elderly lose their driving privileges when they are no longer able to drive. If you can't understand what you're voting for you shouldn't be voting. That's why I don't want 16 year olds to vote. 16 year olds are still kids and just getting into the real world. The Argument could be made to raise the voting Age to 21 since the human brain isn't fully developed until the early 20s.

The rise of Democratic Socialists can be fully explained by inexperienced and Naive kids voting. Nobody who has worked and started a family seriously supports Socialism. Whall we're at it the draft should be raised to 21.

This argument is literally "I don't want people who don't support me to vote."

Also, the "literacy tests" they used back then in the South are not literacy tests. They are impossibly hard and specific and were used as a tool of racism via grandfather clauses. In any case, I really don't care enough to infringe the voting rights of the 0.01% of illiterates.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Again, THEY can be disenfranchised for want of money/time/effort to get an ID.

But if I told you a specific voter ID which no-one currently has is required, I expect you'd blame government regulatory burden not your own laziness, for not going to stand in line at the DMR. Am I close?

Any current form of legal ID isn't the mountain that you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

If people can't be bothered enough to acquire it, then clearly that decision is on them.

And if they couldn't be bothered to suck it up and pay the Reich flight tax, then they got what was coming to them...

You shouldn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to show how much you want to vote. It should be as easy as possible.

[San Lumen]

Any current form of legal ID isn't the mountain that you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

If people can't be bothered enough to acquire it, then clearly that decision is on them.

And if they couldn't be bothered to suck it up and pay the Reich flight tax, then they got what was coming to them...

You shouldn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to show how much you want to vote. It should be as easy as possible.

and you shouldn't throw temper tantrum's like these counties when elections don't go your way.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

And if they couldn't be bothered to suck it up and pay the Reich flight tax, then they got what was coming to them...

You shouldn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to show how much you want to vote. It should be as easy as possible.

and you shouldn't throw temper tantrum's like these counties when elections don't go your way.

To clarify, I am not of the belief that the Jews who stayed in Nazi Germany got what was coming to them because they could've paid the Reich flight tax and left before. If anything, that analogy shows the flaw in the "suck it up" reasoning you are employing.

[San Lumen]

and you shouldn't throw temper tantrum's like these counties when elections don't go your way.

To clarify, I am not of the belief that the Jews who stayed in Nazi Germany got what was coming to them because they could've paid the Reich flight tax and left before. If anything, that analogy shows the flaw in the "suck it up" reasoning you are employing.

Thats not even remotely the same thing and I was not making that comparison.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

To clarify, I am not of the belief that the Jews who stayed in Nazi Germany got what was coming to them because they could've paid the Reich flight tax and left before. If anything, that analogy shows the flaw in the "suck it up" reasoning you are employing.

Thats not even remotely the same thing and I was not making that comparison.

I presumed that you were continuing off of the analogy I made in relation to the initial statement about voter ID. Otherwise, I don't see why you quoted my post.

[Christian Confederation]

I personally think a literacy test should be required to vote. Everyone goes to public school and has no excuse to be illiterate. If you can't read and Comprehend what you're voting for does the vote even matter?

It's like how the elderly lose their driving privileges when they are no longer able to drive. If you can't understand what you're voting for you shouldn't be voting. That's why I don't want 16 year olds to vote. 16 year olds are still kids and just getting into the real world. The Argument could be made to raise the voting Age to 21 since the human brain isn't fully developed until the early 20s.

The rise of Democratic Socialists can be fully explained by inexperienced and Naive kids voting. Nobody who has worked and started a family seriously supports Socialism. Whall we're at it the draft should be raised to 21.

The purpose of voting isn't for voters to set policy, and voters don't, it's about being reprsented in the electorate, so that the government will (hopefully) act in your interests. Illiterate people and young adults may indeed be less able to comprehend policy, but most voters probably don't know anything about policy. One's knowledge of policy doesn't determine how much that policy affects them.

States and Local Governments always have laws on the ballot that need approval. Are we going to keep being a Dry county? Should we allow the Sell of Alcohol on Sunday? Should we introduce a 1 cent tax to fund the new High School?
Those are all good things we should have the Ability to aprove or disprove but instead of saying it as it is the ballot will say something along the lines of

State Resolution 245: Protection of State Game and lands Act:Y/N

An Act to increase Funding to the State's Game Wardens.

[Your Own Private FlorIDAHO]

I am once again reminding people that socialism is not "when the government does stuff".

Ah, reminding them what talking down to them sounds like again.

[Your Own Private FlorIDAHO]

Anyway, San Lumen, I think it was you who asked what the turnout was in the disaffected counties?

There were links in one of the articles to 5 county websites. One of the websites seemed to be blank (I guess the County Clerk was off-duty all this time, maybe hiding out in the city until his wife calmed down and/or ran out of ammo.)

Damn, I can't find it now. But I do remember that official turnout was about 35% to about 60%, but more relevantly very few of the people who filled out a ballot at all, answered the "Move the border" plebiscite at the very bottom. When I find those figures I will be making a huge deal of how low the question-specific turnout was. And how it's probably that voters had so little idea of what it was about, that they prudently left it blank. It's wouldn't be a stretch to count them as NOT in favor of changing states, would it?

I think that was me who asked.

Yes, showing how low that number is going to be is exactly the point.

[San Lumen]

Anyway, San Lumen, I think it was you who asked what the turnout was in the disaffected counties?

There were links in one of the articles to 5 county websites. One of the websites seemed to be blank (I guess the County Clerk was off-duty all this time, maybe hiding out in the city until his wife calmed down and/or ran out of ammo.)

Damn, I can't find it now. But I do remember that official turnout was about 35% to about 60%, but more relevantly very few of the people who filled out a ballot at all, answered the "Move the border" plebiscite at the very bottom. When I find those figures I will be making a huge deal of how low the question-specific turnout was. And how it's probably that voters had so little idea of what it was about, that they prudently left it blank. It's wouldn't be a stretch to count them as NOT in favor of changing states, would it?

I think that was me who asked.

Yes, showing how low that number is going to be is exactly the point.

Seems like some a choosing to ignore it.

[Thermodolia]

Anyway, San Lumen, I think it was you who asked what the turnout was in the disaffected counties?

There were links in one of the articles to 5 county websites. One of the websites seemed to be blank (I guess the County Clerk was off-duty all this time, maybe hiding out in the city until his wife calmed down and/or ran out of ammo.)

Damn, I can't find it now. But I do remember that official turnout was about 35% to about 60%, but more relevantly very few of the people who filled out a ballot at all, answered the "Move the border" plebiscite at the very bottom. When I find those figures I will be making a huge deal of how low the question-specific turnout was. And how it's probably that voters had so little idea of what it was about, that they prudently left it blank. It's wouldn't be a stretch to count them as NOT in favor of changing states, would it?

Yes I would definitely count them as not wanting to move the border

[San Lumen]

Sorry, all. I just forgot this thread when it fell off page 1.

Baker county (broken?)
Grant county
Lake county
Malheur county
Sherman county

Baker: no data. It would be good to know if Whitey Bloom got the job maintaining the Pine Valley cemetery
Grant: Ballots cast: 2,491. Secession: Yes; 1,471 No; 896
Lake: Ballots cast: 2,171. Secession: Yes; 3,024 No; 1,027
Malheur: Ballots cast: 5,169. Secession: Yes; 3,059 No; 2,592
Sherman: Ballots cast: 726. Secession: Yes; 429 No; 260

Baker: no data.
Grant: Secession: Yes; 59.1% No; 36.0% Blank; 4.9%
Lake: Secession: Yes; 139.3% No; 47.2% Blank; —86.5%
Malheur: Secession: Yes; 59.2% No; 50.1% Blank; —9.3%
Sherman: Secession: Yes; 59.1% No; 35.8% Blank; 5.1%

Don't ask me sheriff, I'm just here to work the computer.

139 percent voted yes? I call fraud.

[Narland]

I am not being snarky, but what I just typed (and what I have been typing in previous posts) is the solution. Also that is what representative means (conversely stated, obviously). It is also exercising lawful self-determination according to the principles of Federalism upon which the United States, the former Oregon Country, and the current States involved were formed as a basis of their law.

You may live in a State wherein the Counties are not Chartered but are under direct administration of the State Legislature. This is not the case for the Counties of the former Oregon Country (sans British Columbia). They are chartered with their own delegated powers distinct from State operation which the Legislature may supervise with the consent of the governed within those counties.

Letting the process play out just as it did for other reorganization such as Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and what created the current States of Vermont, New Jersey, Delaware, and West Virginia is nothing new. They may succeed or they may fail, but they have the right to try. The difference is they are not seeking their own Statehood, but transference into a border State within the former Oregon Country.

i dont follow. Are you suggesting that laws passed in the capital don't apply to them without their express consent? That's not how a republic works.

It is exactly how a republic works. Legitimate question: How is it that you do not follow?

Representative government means:

1. There is a self-governing citizenry (of individuals within whom all political power resides, made of free associations of self, family and community), who as a constituency contract and delegate representatives of various duly constituted jurisdiction ((special districts (fire, ambulance, police, libraries, schools, hospitals etc.) incorporated and unincorporated municipalities, counties, states, and a federal union) to represent their duly constituted interests within their appropriate jurisdiction and that jurisdiction specifically.

2. The delegated offices of the various jurisdictions are obligated by Constitutional consideration (Federal and State Constitutions, and County Charter (where applicable), municipal code (if applicable), etc.). They derive the just use of their powers from the consent of those self-governing constituents. The public servants are to faithfully exercise the execution, legislation, or adjudication (depending on branch) of their limited function of governance in the upholding of the People’s rights. They serve the Constitutions and charters for the people not themselves.

3. When the self-governing citizens’ employees (the representatives of the governed, i,e., those delegated to represent the self-governing citizenry) fail to protect the rights of the self-governing citizens liberally (maximal liberty sense) and equitably (equal application of law sense) with due diligence and beneficent indifference; it is the right, obligation, and duty of the citizens to to alter or abolish that government – viz., the special district, municipality, county, state, or union as best maintains domestic tranquility.

That is a condensed short of it. Civics textbooks in the 100s of pages have been written. The constituent citizen’s are exercising their right to representative self-government.

[San Lumen]

Whenever I read or hear about Oregon, it is rarely anything good. Portland seems to mostly be a hub for violence and stupid riots. One of my online friends lives there and says that he and his parents have been terrified for the past year. It makes sense to me that people want separate themselves from that lunacy.

Anecdotes aren’t evidence and Salem won’t even give this referendum result a hearing.

[Necroghastia]

Whenever I read or hear about Oregon, it is rarely anything good. Portland seems to mostly be a hub for violence and stupid riots. One of my online friends lives there and says that he and his parents have been terrified for the past year. It makes sense to me that people want separate themselves from that lunacy.

I have an online acquaintance in Portland as well.
He doesn't know what people are talking about when they say it's a "hub for violence and stupid riots" except when it's people trying to score political points by making shit up and/or exaggerating to the Nth degree.

[San Lumen]

Anecdotes aren’t evidence and Salem won’t even give this referendum result a hearing.

Do you live under a rock or something? It has been all over the news how violent Portland has been.

Why don’t you prove it?

[San Lumen]

Why don’t you prove it?

That you live under a rock?

I know people in Portland and they have not expressed the sentiments you did.

[Neutraligon]

Whenever I read or hear about Oregon, it is rarely anything good. Portland seems to mostly be a hub for violence and stupid riots. One of my online friends lives there and says that he and his parents have been terrified for the past year. It makes sense to me that people want separate themselves from that lunacy.

Funny I live very very close to where the actual protests where happening, hell the riot that first night actually went right past my building. Guess what I have not been living in fear because for the most part there is literally no difference except for maybe some excess graffiti in the early part and storefronts have been taking advantage of it to pay artists to do graffiti art. For a long period of time, life has returned to what it used to be except still dealing with the pandemic.

[San Lumen]

I know people in Portland and they have not expressed the sentiments you did.

Anecdotes are not evidence. The news is evidence. I rest my case

Would you kindly share your evidence with the class?

[SHAH-MAT]

Would you kindly share your evidence with the class?

source? do you have a source for that?