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Five Oregon Counties vote to Join Idaho

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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:34 pm

San Lumen wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:Yes, they should.


wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

Officially they didn’t, well not at the time. It was only after they lost did we decide they violated the constitution. Prior to the civil war the US was seen as a voluntary union of states and not a mandatory national entity
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:37 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Actually it works quite fine in places where there’s freedom of trade and travel already established like inside the US borders and in the EU. I mean just look at Baarle-Hertog which is a bunch of Belgian enclaves and exclaves in the Netherlands


Those enclaves and exclaves are significantly smaller than a county though. More like a few houses here and there. Less than 3000 people in the whole municipality of baarle hertog, some of which is not an enclave/exclave at all.

Does it scale?

And Dutch and Belgian local governments cooperate on issues that arise. Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p

I mean they where talking about a few city sized areas within the counties. And yes it could definitely work because it’s all apart of the US and they could get the feds to do most of the governing anyway
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Those enclaves and exclaves are significantly smaller than a county though. More like a few houses here and there. Less than 3000 people in the whole municipality of baarle hertog, some of which is not an enclave/exclave at all.

Does it scale?

And Dutch and Belgian local governments cooperate on issues that arise. Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p

I mean they where talking about a few city sized areas within the counties. And yes it could definitely work because it’s all apart of the US and they could get the feds to do most of the governing anyway

It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

If someone values democracy and self determination yes they should be for that.

If they aren’t well at least they should be honest and say that they aren’t for that. I personally am not for a federal system and instead prefer a unitary state run by a central government which is run by a constitutional military dictatorship.


Why? Lincoln should have simply let the southern states go and declared those in chains aren’t my problem and let Maryland succeed too thereby sandwiching the capital in between two successions states?

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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:54 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I mean they where talking about a few city sized areas within the counties. And yes it could definitely work because it’s all apart of the US and they could get the feds to do most of the governing anyway

It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

It actually is. It’s all within the US and state borders shouldn’t be static anyway because they should really all be extensions of the federal or really central government.

Thermodolia wrote:If someone values democracy and self determination yes they should be for that.

If they aren’t well at least they should be honest and say that they aren’t for that. I personally am not for a federal system and instead prefer a unitary state run by a central government which is run by a constitutional military dictatorship.


Why? Lincoln should have simply let the southern states go and declared those in chains aren’t my problem and let Maryland succeed too thereby sandwiching the capital in between two successions states?

The capital probably would have been moved. But ya if you really respected the democratic rule and the idea of self determination than sure that’s what should have happened.

But as you seem to not have read the second paragraph which is very important you seem to think that I wanted the south to leave. Which couldn’t be farther from the truth given I think that Lincoln and Co should have demolished the federal system right then and there.
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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p

*thinks*

Perhaps the apt example to use here isn't Baarle-Nassau, but the social, economic, political, and administrative mess that is the Indian-Bangladeshi border.
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

It actually is. It’s all within the US and state borders shouldn’t be static anyway because they should really all be extensions of the federal or really central government.


Why? Lincoln should have simply let the southern states go and declared those in chains aren’t my problem and let Maryland succeed too thereby sandwiching the capital in between two successions states?

The capital probably would have been moved. But ya if you really respected the democratic rule and the idea of self determination than sure that’s what should have happened.

But as you seem to not have read the second paragraph which is very important you seem to think that I wanted the south to leave. Which couldn’t be farther from the truth given I think that Lincoln and Co should have demolished the federal system right then and there.

And millions remain in chains for decades with zero rights.

What should they have replaced it with?

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Senkaku
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Senkaku » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:00 pm

Thermodolia wrote:But ya if you really respected the democratic rule and the idea of self determination than sure that’s what should have happened.

…democratic rule and self determination for who? I mean, yeah, if you’re concerned with oligarchs’ democratic rights more than poor farmers’ or slaves’, sure, the Confederacy was a case of democratic self determination, but… come on now.
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 pm

Senkaku wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:But ya if you really respected the democratic rule and the idea of self determination than sure that’s what should have happened.

…democratic rule and self determination for who? I mean, yeah, if you’re concerned with oligarchs’ democratic rights more than poor farmers’ or slaves’, sure, the Confederacy was a case of democratic self determination, but… come on now.


You also believe Lincoln should have let them go and given up on abolishing slavery? Millions remain in chains for decades?

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Ors Might
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:09 pm

Your Own Private FlorIDAHO wrote:
Ors Might wrote:If one values democracy on principle, then yeah. The states involved democratically voted to secede.


Millions of black people weren't allowed to vote. Also some poor whites. How was that democracy?

It was a system of government by which representatives were elected by eligible citizens. By definition, a democracy. That what the criteria they used for an eligible citizen was disgusting is irrelevant to whether or not it was a democracy.
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Senkaku
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Senkaku » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:10 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Senkaku wrote:…democratic rule and self determination for who? I mean, yeah, if you’re concerned with oligarchs’ democratic rights more than poor farmers’ or slaves’, sure, the Confederacy was a case of democratic self determination, but… come on now.


You also believe Lincoln should have let them go and given up on abolishing slavery? Millions remain in chains for decades?

What the fuck did I just say? I mean, re-read what I said and tell me how the hell you got there. Are you having a stroke?
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:11 pm

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p

*thinks*

Perhaps the apt example to use here isn't Baarle-Nassau, but the social, economic, political, and administrative mess that is the Indian-Bangladeshi border.

Actually they solved that mostly back in 2015
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:12 pm

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p

*thinks*

Perhaps the apt example to use here isn't Baarle-Nassau, but the social, economic, political, and administrative mess that is the Indian-Bangladeshi border.


That would invalidate the preconditions of free movement and trade that were laid out.
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:14 pm

Senkaku wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:But ya if you really respected the democratic rule and the idea of self determination than sure that’s what should have happened.

…democratic rule and self determination for who? I mean, yeah, if you’re concerned with oligarchs’ democratic rights more than poor farmers’ or slaves’, sure, the Confederacy was a case of democratic self determination, but… come on now.

Democratic rule and self determination is foe those who are eligible voters. At the time poor whites and slaves where not eligible voters.

But either way I don’t agree with it because I think that democracy, especially democracy that’s unguided, is terrible for a government and leads to the situation we had last year with idiots in charge of the government.
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I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

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Senkaku
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Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Senkaku » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:19 pm

Thermodolia wrote:especially democracy that’s unguided

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Christian Confederation
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Postby Christian Confederation » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:20 pm

Aren't more Counties set to vote on joining Idaho in November?
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:25 pm

Christian Confederation wrote:Aren't more Counties set to vote on joining Idaho in November?


Not that im aware of. Its still noting more than stunt.

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South Americanastan
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:36 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Aren't more Counties set to vote on joining Idaho in November?


Not that im aware of. Its still noting more than stunt.

Multiple official referendums is a little more than a stunt.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:36 pm

South Americanastan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Not that im aware of. Its still noting more than stunt.

Multiple official referendums is a little more than a stunt.

Its a stunt because the state legislature will never give them the light of day via a hearing.

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South Americanastan
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Postby South Americanastan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:41 pm

San Lumen wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Multiple official referendums is a little more than a stunt.

Its a stunt because the state legislature will never give them the light of day via a hearing.

Just because it probably won't work and/or didn't work doesn't make it a "stunt". By your definition the American Civil War was a "stunt" and so is the North Korean Nuclear program, and also the Catalonian independence movement. These counties are 100% serious about leaving, and held legitimate referendums. That is not a "stunt"
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This nation represents my views, deal with it
North Sonovia wrote:
Cereskia wrote:Bill accidentaly ate it and dies

I was about to say "manpreg happens" but you just saved this thread from a cursed comment from being made.

Carthatska wrote:Man forgets to drive and launches himself off the highway, trailing excrement while screaming 'YOLO'.

New man.

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:44 pm

South Americanastan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Its a stunt because the state legislature will never give them the light of day via a hearing.

Just because it probably won't work and/or didn't work doesn't make it a "stunt". By your definition the American Civil War was a "stunt" and so is the North Korean Nuclear program, and also the Catalonian independence movement. These counties are 100% serious about leaving, and held legitimate referendums. That is not a "stunt"


The fact that it will go nowhere means its nothing more than a protest vote and stunt. The Civil War wasn't a stunt. it was a constitutional crisis and by the logic of some here Lincoln should have just let them go and said those who remain in chains in the South isn't my problem.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:45 pm

San Lumen wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Just because it probably won't work and/or didn't work doesn't make it a "stunt". By your definition the American Civil War was a "stunt" and so is the North Korean Nuclear program, and also the Catalonian independence movement. These counties are 100% serious about leaving, and held legitimate referendums. That is not a "stunt"


The fact that it will go nowhere means its nothing more than a protest vote and stunt. The Civil War wasn't a stunt. it was a constitutional crisis and by the logic of some here Lincoln should have just let them go and said those who remain in chains in the South isn't my problem.


Bad news for you, Lincoln fought the Civil War because the confederates attacked a military base, not to free slaves. Lincoln was a racist himself, and you ought to know it's true.
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:46 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
The fact that it will go nowhere means its nothing more than a protest vote and stunt. The Civil War wasn't a stunt. it was a constitutional crisis and by the logic of some here Lincoln should have just let them go and said those who remain in chains in the South isn't my problem.


Bad news for you, Lincoln fought the Civil War because the confederates attacked a military base, not to free slaves. Lincoln was a racist himself, and you ought to know it's true.


Lincoln was against slavery but did not believe in full equality. This was not uncommon thinking at the time.

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Ors Might
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Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:49 pm

San Lumen wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Multiple official referendums is a little more than a stunt.

Its a stunt because the state legislature will never give them the light of day via a hearing.

Y’know, if thousands of the people you’re meant to represent are so dissatisfied with the job you’re doing that multiple counties hold a referendum and vote to leave your state, that might be something you might want to fucking address?
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Aren't more Counties set to vote on joining Idaho in November?


Not that im aware of. Its still noting more than stunt.

If it’s nothing more than a stunt then why do you care so much?
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Bad news for you, Lincoln fought the Civil War because the confederates attacked a military base, not to free slaves. Lincoln was a racist himself, and you ought to know it's true.


Lincoln was against slavery but did not believe in full equality. This was not uncommon thinking at the time.


Lincoln once stated he'd rather preserve the union and keep slavery than abolish the union and end slavery. The Civil War only became about slavery when we needed to dissuade Europe from helping the CSA.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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