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Five Oregon Counties vote to Join Idaho

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Paddy O Fernature
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:56 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
I doubt Idaho ever agrees to that. Heres a novel idea how about they accept they live in a democracy and respect the outcome of elections and they means they have less representation and less likely to see the candidates they want get elected to statewide office.


Lumen how are they not respecting democracy by voting to leave a state? That makes zero sense. They democratically voted "we don't wanna be part of Oregon anymore" and that's "not respecting democracy?" What next? Laying flowers at the graves of American soldiers is anti American?


Honestly, the mental gymnastic needed to make that argument with a straight face is truly mind blowing.

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:56 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Lumen how are they not respecting democracy by voting to leave a state? That makes zero sense.

If I hold a referendum in which I am the sole voter and vote to make murder legal, that doesn't mean I then have a democratic mandate to start killing people.

Democracy should strive to include, as far as it is possible to do so, all the stakeholders in the issue at hand. And the question of which state a particular plot of land is a part of has more stakeholders than merely the residents of that plot of land.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:59 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Lumen how are they not respecting democracy by voting to leave a state? That makes zero sense.

If I hold a referendum in which I am the sole voter and vote to make murder legal, that doesn't mean I then have a democratic mandate to start killing people.

Democracy should strive to include, as far as it is possible to do so, all the stakeholders in the issue at hand. And the question of which state a particular plot of land is a part of has more stakeholders than merely the residents of that plot of land.


As far as im concerned, if the people in these counties voted to leave, it isnt "anti democracy," even if more people should be asked for their opinion. It would be anti democracy if they DIDNT want to leave and the government said "to bad."
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:33 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Lumen how are they not respecting democracy by voting to leave a state? That makes zero sense. They democratically voted "we don't wanna be part of Oregon anymore" and that's "not respecting democracy?" What next? Laying flowers at the graves of American soldiers is anti American?


Honestly, the mental gymnastic needed to make that argument with a straight face is truly mind blowing.

what mental gymnastics are there?

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Paddy O Fernature
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:42 am

San Lumen wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Honestly, the mental gymnastic needed to make that argument with a straight face is truly mind blowing.

what mental gymnastics are there?


You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?
Last edited by Paddy O Fernature on Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:08 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
San Lumen wrote:what mental gymnastics are there?


You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?

I mean... I understand the question considering the south lost a war over something very similar.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:15 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
San Lumen wrote:what mental gymnastics are there?


You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?


By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

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The Two Jerseys
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Two Jerseys » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:17 am

San Lumen wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?


By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

Yes, they should.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:20 am

San Lumen wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?


By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

If one values democracy on principle, then yeah. The states involved democratically voted to secede.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:22 am

The Two Jerseys wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

Yes, they should.

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Your Own Private FlorIDAHO
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Postby Your Own Private FlorIDAHO » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:24 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Lumen how are they not respecting democracy by voting to leave a state? That makes zero sense. They democratically voted "we don't wanna be part of Oregon anymore" and that's "not respecting democracy?" What next? Laying flowers at the graves of American soldiers is anti American?


Honestly, the mental gymnastic needed to make that argument with a straight face is truly mind blowing.

Welcome to the third decade of the 21st Century gymnastic events.
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Most minds were blown about a decades and a half ago thanks to sub-prime mortgages, credit default swaps, the derivative market, etc. Not to mention the parallel meth epidemic and opioid crisis.
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It's no wonder a thread like this can exists.
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 am

The Two Jerseys wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

Yes, they should.


wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

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Dresderstan
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 am

San Lumen wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:Yes, they should.


wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

Well they didn't vote for Lincoln, and he didn't even get 40% of the vote.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:26 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

Well they didn't vote for Lincoln, and he didn't even get 40% of the vote.

Well, in Lumen's defense, they didn't even put him on the ballot.
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Your Own Private FlorIDAHO
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Postby Your Own Private FlorIDAHO » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:28 am

Ors Might wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

If one values democracy on principle, then yeah. The states involved democratically voted to secede.


Millions of black people weren't allowed to vote. Also some poor whites. How was that democracy?

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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:28 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

Well they didn't vote for Lincoln, and he didn't even get 40% of the vote.


He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.

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Your Own Private FlorIDAHO
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Postby Your Own Private FlorIDAHO » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:30 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Well they didn't vote for Lincoln, and he didn't even get 40% of the vote.


He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.


It's rather absurd on it's face.

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The Two Jerseys
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Two Jerseys » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:31 am

San Lumen wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:Yes, they should.


wow ok. They violated the constitution by doing so in response to we don't like that Lincoln became president but no matter. We should have just let them go and let slavery continue in the name of freedom right?

And where in the Constitution does it say that secession is prohibited?
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Dresderstan
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:31 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Well they didn't vote for Lincoln, and he didn't even get 40% of the vote.


He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.

Sounds more like a problem of a corrupt and useless electoral system.
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Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.

Sounds more like a problem of a corrupt and useless electoral system.


Things were also different at the time. the concept of ballot access did not exist in the sense it does today: there was no standardized state-issued ballot for a candidate to "appear" on. Instead, presidential ballots were printed and distributed by agents of the candidates and their parties, who organized slates of would-be electors publicly pledged to vote for a particular candidate.

The ballot we know would not exist until 1884.
Last edited by San Lumen on Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Your Own Private FlorIDAHO
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Postby Your Own Private FlorIDAHO » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.

Sounds more like a problem of a corrupt and useless electoral system.

The usual and worst of human flaws, no doubt.

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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:51 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
He wasn't;t even on the ballot in several southern states. he got 39 percent of the vote because several candidates ran in hopes of throwing the election to the House. Plus the secret ballot didn't exist at the time.

Sounds more like a problem of a corrupt and useless electoral system.

It was the problem that people thought Lincoln was GUNNA TAKE AR SLAVES!!!!!!!11!!!1!!!
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:24 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:If that's the case, then have the towns vote. Farmers can vote in a town-based referendum. State-owned land does not switch jurisdiction.

And create a mess of enclaves and exclaves? That’s not practical.

Actually it works quite fine in places where there’s freedom of trade and travel already established like inside the US borders and in the EU. I mean just look at Baarle-Hertog which is a bunch of Belgian enclaves and exclaves in the Netherlands
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:32 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:And create a mess of enclaves and exclaves? That’s not practical.

Actually it works quite fine in places where there’s freedom of trade and travel already established like inside the US borders and in the EU. I mean just look at Baarle-Hertog which is a bunch of Belgian enclaves and exclaves in the Netherlands


Those enclaves and exclaves are significantly smaller than a county though. More like a few houses here and there. Less than 3000 people in the whole municipality of baarle hertog, some of which is not an enclave/exclave at all.

Does it scale?

And Dutch and Belgian local governments cooperate on issues that arise. Can the same be said for Democrats and Republicans? :p
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:32 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
You mean besides the painfully obvious part where you are laughably contradicting yourself multiple times across now several posts just so you can continue to argue that they are not respecting democracy?


By your logic the Civil War shouldnt have happened and the South should have just been allowed to form their own country .

If someone values democracy and self determination yes they should be for that.

If they aren’t well at least they should be honest and say that they aren’t for that. I personally am not for a federal system and instead prefer a unitary state run by a central government which is run by a constitutional military dictatorship.
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