Five Oregon Counties vote to Join Idaho

[Great Algerstonia]

It is seccession. Just from one state rather than one country. I don't see how the same principle doesn't apply. Canada is more liberal than America. If Republicans regain Congress, would the North East and West of America be allowed to join Canada?

Honestly looking at American politics, lack of compromise is not something I associate with Democrats. Biden ran a whole campaign on the back of working with Republicans. Repiblican extremism doesn't justify redrawing borders.

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

[Myrensis]

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

Do you? Because this screams like someone who has just adamantly refused to read, watch, or listen to anything conservatives have been saying or doing for the last...well, we'll be extremely generous and call it 4 years. It goes back much further than that of course, but pre-Trump they made more of an effort to hide it, and to keep the ones who couldn't away from the cameras.

[The Black Forrest]

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

I do. Several are relations. Guess who they say is the best thing to ever happen to the US?

No need for the petty twitter comment. Sure twitter has it’s issues; you should hear what my cousins will tell you is the truth from OANN.

[Shofercia]

We're talking about counties voting to move in between states within the same country; no one is talking about secession. As for their needs not being met, they lack the votes to elect politicians who would cater to their needs and the other side refuses to compromise when it comes to issues of regulation and taxation.

Regulation and taxation? As in the green power efforts?

Quite a few of the "Green Power" efforts serve as a way to transfer money from the poor to the rich. Here's one such story by USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interact ... h-nothing/

Most days, the trucker would drive more than 16 hours straight hauling LG dishwashers and Kumho tires to warehouses around Los Angeles, on their way to retail stores nationwide. He rarely went home to his family. At night, he crawled into the back of his cab and slept in the company parking lot. For all of that, he took home as little as 67 cents a week.

And that all started with Green Power regulation and taxation.

We're talking about counties voting to move in between states within the same country; no one is talking about secession. As for their needs not being met, they lack the votes to elect politicians who would cater to their needs and the other side refuses to compromise when it comes to issues of regulation and taxation.

It is seccession. Just from one state rather than one country. I don't see how the same principle doesn't apply. Canada is more liberal than America. If Republicans regain Congress, would the North East and West of America be allowed to join Canada?

Honestly looking at American politics, lack of compromise is not something I associate with Democrats. Biden ran a whole campaign on the back of working with Republicans. Repiblican extremism doesn't justify redrawing borders.

Secession, in the context that I'm using it in, applies to countries not states. There's a World of difference between them. Otherwise, where do we draw the line? Should cities not be allowed to secede from counties? Should neighborhoods not allowed to secede from cities? Should new cities not be allowed to incorporate?

And yes, Biden ran a campaign on compromising with the Republicans, but if he had Manchin's vote, he'd already ram an ultra Democratic package through by now. Politicians lie.

It is seccession. Just from one state rather than one country. I don't see how the same principle doesn't apply. Canada is more liberal than America. If Republicans regain Congress, would the North East and West of America be allowed to join Canada?

Honestly looking at American politics, lack of compromise is not something I associate with Democrats. Biden ran a whole campaign on the back of working with Republicans. Repiblican extremism doesn't justify redrawing borders.

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

"If they're not with us, they're against us!" - George W Bush and Myrensis, only difference is that Bush knew he was bullshitting. If Democrats would've nominated someone without a Clinton's baggage, Trump might've lost. You cannot nominate the most toxic last name you had at the time, and complain about losing the election. That's like someone who doesn't study for the test and fails it, complaining that it's really because they're oppressed by the system. Talk about a sense of entitlement!

You see no difference between parts of one country joining an entirely different country and a few counties deciding they want to be part of a different state? What, do you think of this as Texas 2.0?

Constitutionally there is no difference. Consent of Congress is required.

As to the Texas quip, I'm pretty sure the standing offer by Congress for Texas to divide itself into new states, has expired, and in any case never included Texas drawing new state lines however it liked. Any plan they made up, would still have required consent of Congress.

Would you please be so kind as to link me to the expiration date in said plan? And there's a huge difference between seceding from a country and switching states. I can pay the fees and move all of my assets to Nevada tomorrow, if I wanted to. Switching countries requires quite a bit of effort. Passing the budget also requires the consent of Congress, and yet it somehow happens every year.

[Shofercia]

True, but why not arrest him for conspiracy to commit theft after he's alone and vulnerable? The theft was rather blatant and they even bragged about it. Stealing from government land still counts as stealing the last time I checked.

Your guess is as good as mine. :/ But anyways, the point is, he's now preparing to seize strategic infrastructure with the goal of totally wrecking the already-strained Klamath River ecosystem and the whole area's water supply, because apparently in addition to public land and "freedom" from the democratic decisionmaking of their fellow citizens' representatives, Oregon's right-wing nutjobs think they're entitled to to the state's water in the middle of the worst drought in decades.

Unfortunately, the secession thing can't be taken on its own, you have to take it in the context of the absolute insanity that the Oregonian far-right has been unleashing across the state for the past several years (Malheur, the convoys into Portland, now this mini-water war, etc.). It's great to support the principle of self-determination in a vacuum or whatever, but take a look at where Oregon is going and who the people behind this allegedly principled, democratic movement are.

I highly doubt that everyone who voted for this proposal is a crazed Bundy supporter.

True, but why not arrest him for conspiracy to commit theft after he's alone and vulnerable? The theft was rather blatant and they even bragged about it. Stealing from government land still counts as stealing the last time I checked.

A federal judge dismissed all charges against the Bundys because prosecutors willfully withheld exculpatory evidence, acted in bad faith tantamount to criminal malfeasance.

Ah, so the prosecutors fucked up. That makes more sense, thanks for the info!

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

Next up on why America's so divided...

[San Lumen]

I don't recall mentioning any political party in that argument. Let's check in with the actual argument:

The farmers and loggers pay taxes, be it income taxes, property taxes, etc, to the government of Oregon. However, as even Lumen admitted, they don't have the manpower peoplepower to elect representatives that would be able to pass laws to represent their needs. As thus, they're forced to pay taxes to a government that doesn't represent them, so they opted to switch states.

Do you see political parties mentioned anywhere? If you're going to use template argument bullshit, at least check to see if actually rebuts anything.

Democrats and Republicans was a "template argument" which I thought you'd understand, for why letting minorities opt out of a government system because they don't feel it "represents" them is a terrible idea. It would be piecemeal devolution, and assuming nothing went wrong (which it would) would end with anarchy. Every person their own little kingdom, or queendom. Perhaps you like that, but in my opinion it is even less likely to work than the devolution to gang rulership in Somalia.

I did consider you might get distracted by the mention of parties. So I provided another example, of a smaller minority. Should we untax African Americans because they have never got the representation they want in Federal or even State government? Haha.

What is different here? The minority are distinguised by where they physically live. But control of land, by ownership or by participation in county government, has never entitled people to more voting power or representation.

Actually it did, but that that was the first enfranchisement modification made after the constitution, wasn't it? Doesn't that tell you what a BAD IDEA it is?

As for the rest that gobbledygook, I'll just point out that the claim that you're bound forever by a Referendum Vote is extraordinarily ignorant, because you can always have a Referendum to repeal a Referendum. So no, you're not going to be bound for it for ever and ever and ever.

OK. You can. But if Oregon doesn't want you back, you will never be able to undo the mistake of the past. That's the deal, right? Referendums and consent of the "new" state is all that's required? Or are we talking about the process specificied in the constitution (both states and Congress, to hell with a referendum)?

Congress has to approve the change as well.

[Shofercia]

Congress has to approve the change as well.

Which means that it's a legal possibility that could happen with the consent of Congress.

I don't recall mentioning any political party in that argument. Let's check in with the actual argument:

The farmers and loggers pay taxes, be it income taxes, property taxes, etc, to the government of Oregon. However, as even Lumen admitted, they don't have the manpower peoplepower to elect representatives that would be able to pass laws to represent their needs. As thus, they're forced to pay taxes to a government that doesn't represent them, so they opted to switch states.

Do you see political parties mentioned anywhere? If you're going to use template argument bullshit, at least check to see if actually rebuts anything.

Democrats and Republicans was a "template argument" which I thought you'd understand, for why letting minorities opt out of a government system because they don't feel it "represents" them is a terrible idea. It would be piecemeal devolution, and assuming nothing went wrong (which it would) would end with anarchy. Every person their own little kingdom, or queendom. Perhaps you like that, but in my opinion it is even less likely to work than the devolution to gang rulership in Somalia.

I've yet to see a truly democratic referendum vote that could create Somalia, or where one would live in the Republic of Themselfia, so I'll chalk that one up to fearmongering. Furthermore, it's not about feelings - they actually lack effective representation.

I did consider you might get distracted by the mention of parties. So I provided another example, of a smaller minority. Should we untax African Americans because they have never got the representation they want in Federal or even State government? Haha.

Except they did. When Republicans were in power, they represented Republican African Americans, and when Democrats were in power, they represented Democrat African Americans. Just because you're a minority, doesn't mean that you're not effectively represented.

What is different here? The minority are distinguised by where they physically live. But control of land, by ownership or by participation in county government, has never entitled people to more voting power or representation.

The difference is that they are effectively represented, see above. You think preferential tax treatment to mothers in single parent households is there to cater to whites and Asians? Furthermore, being able to group yourselves into a governable unit is the first step to a successful movement to switch states via a referendum.

Actually it did, but that that was the first enfranchisement modification made after the constitution, wasn't it? Doesn't that tell you what a BAD IDEA it is?

Denying someone the vote because they don't own property was a bad idea. Allowing groups of people to form their own governable units wasn't; otherwise we'd have one Virginia and one Dakota.

As for the rest that gobbledygook, I'll just point out that the claim that you're bound forever by a Referendum Vote is extraordinarily ignorant, because you can always have a Referendum to repeal a Referendum. So no, you're not going to be bound for it for ever and ever and ever.

OK. You can. But if Oregon doesn't want you back, you will never be able to undo the mistake of the past. That's the deal, right? Referendums and consent of the "new" state is all that's required? Or are we talking about the process specificied in the constitution (both states and Congress, to hell with a referendum)?

Nope, if Oregon doesn't want you back, then you don't go back, but I've yet to see a state go "we don't want more taxpayers!"

And that's really the crux of the issue here, taxpayers. Democrats in Oregon feel entitled to collect Republican taxes without effectively representing them, while bitching about how entitled the Republicans are. Talk about the power of projection!

[Senkaku]

Your guess is as good as mine. :/ But anyways, the point is, he's now preparing to seize strategic infrastructure with the goal of totally wrecking the already-strained Klamath River ecosystem and the whole area's water supply, because apparently in addition to public land and "freedom" from the democratic decisionmaking of their fellow citizens' representatives, Oregon's right-wing nutjobs think they're entitled to to the state's water in the middle of the worst drought in decades.

Unfortunately, the secession thing can't be taken on its own, you have to take it in the context of the absolute insanity that the Oregonian far-right has been unleashing across the state for the past several years (Malheur, the convoys into Portland, now this mini-water war, etc.). It's great to support the principle of self-determination in a vacuum or whatever, but take a look at where Oregon is going and who the people behind this allegedly principled, democratic movement are.

I highly doubt that everyone who voted for this proposal is a crazed Bundy supporter.

Is that what I said, though?

[Ors Might]

You see no difference between parts of one country joining an entirely different country and a few counties deciding they want to be part of a different state? What, do you think of this as Texas 2.0?

The basic premise is the same. We're being outvoted. Let's go somewhere else.

Even ignoring the fact that you’re still trying to compare two difference scenarios with wildly different consequences, what’s your point? That one should remain in a state where their interests aren’t being advanced or represented?

[YodaSwampthing]

epic lets get that to happen in eastern washington.

[Greater Miami Shores]

epic lets get that to happen in eastern washington.

If the majority of the American citizens of the 5 Oregon Counties wish to secede From Idaho, and the majority of American Citizens of eastern Washington wish to secede from Washington, they have a democratic right to do so. At least they should have the democratic right to do so.

[Fauzjhia]

epic lets get that to happen in eastern washington.

If the majority of the American citizens of the 5 Oregon Counties wish to secede From Idaho, and the majority of American Citizens of eastern Washington wish to secede from Washington, they have a democratic right to do so. At least they should have the democratic right to do so.

say, if the citizen of Atlanta wanted to seceed from Goergia, would have they have the right to do ?

[Myrensis]

"If they're not with us, they're against us!" - George W Bush and Myrensis, only difference is that Bush knew he was bullshitting. If Democrats would've nominated someone without a Clinton's baggage, Trump might've lost. You cannot nominate the most toxic last name you had at the time, and complain about losing the election.

Clintons baggage that was the result of...30 years of Republicans spinning hysterical conspiracy theories about her and her husband and their global murder and crime spree out of enraged resentment over them "stealing" the White House that was supposed to permanently belong to them after Reagan?

The same Republicans who have decided that the only rational explanation for Trump losing is that he, and they, were the victim of global conspiracy orchestrated by a cabal of Satanic cannibal pedophiles who manufactured millions of fake votes out of chinese bamboo and then fed them to chickens to hide the evidence?

The sheer projection here is hilarious, in a morbid sort of way. The Republican Party has devolved into a cult whose foundational belief is that reality itself is engaged in a conspiracy to oppress and persecute them and deny them what is rightfully theirs, and you come up with "ackchyually, it's the Democrats fault!"

That's like someone who doesn't study for the test and fails it, complaining that it's really because they're oppressed by the system. Talk about a sense of entitlement!

Yes, thank you for perfectly encapsulating what it means to be a conservative.

[Shofercia]

I highly doubt that everyone who voted for this proposal is a crazed Bundy supporter.

Is that what I said, though?

Nope, but you implied that the proposal was driven by Bundy's craziness and I pointed out that I highly doubt that everyone's who's on board wants Bundy's craziness.

"If they're not with us, they're against us!" - George W Bush and Myrensis, only difference is that Bush knew he was bullshitting. If Democrats would've nominated someone without a Clinton's baggage, Trump might've lost. You cannot nominate the most toxic last name you had at the time, and complain about losing the election.

Clintons baggage that was the result of...30 years of Republicans spinning hysterical conspiracy theories about her and her husband and their global murder and crime spree out of enraged resentment over them "stealing" the White House that was supposed to permanently belong to them after Reagan?

The same Republicans who have decided that the only rational explanation for Trump losing is that he, and they, were the victim of global conspiracy orchestrated by a cabal of Satanic cannibal pedophiles who manufactured millions of fake votes out of chinese bamboo and then fed them to chickens to hide the evidence?

The sheer projection here is hilarious, in a morbid sort of way. The Republican Party has devolved into a cult whose foundational belief is that reality itself is engaged in a conspiracy to oppress and persecute them and deny them what is rightfully theirs, and you come up with "ackchyually, it's the Democrats fault!"

That's like someone who doesn't study for the test and fails it, complaining that it's really because they're oppressed by the system. Talk about a sense of entitlement!

Yes, thank you for perfectly encapsulating what it means to be a conservative.

Wow, that's about the most idiotic thing I've read on NSG, and that's saying something. Irrespective of the reason for the Clintons' toxicity, there was no question that they were toxic and the Democrats still opted to nominate a Clinton. And yet, when this is pointed out, your response is something out of the Twilight Zone.

If a player is toxic in a locker room and you have a game coming up tomorrow, the coach doesn't sit down with the team to discuss it; the coach doesn't fucking play the player in the upcoming game. This is so, very, extremely, blatantly obvious, that one has to be willfully oblivious to ignore this. So yeah, playing a toxic player as your quarterback, and losing as a result, is your fault. Welcome to reality! Said the very same thing about Republicans when they rolled with McCain.

Also, I've admitted that Biden won the presidency, and that, although their were quite a few election issues, even if all of them went Trump's way, he still would've lost. But you realize, Myrensis, that you have to defend the indefensible, so you trash the other side, dividing the country, rather than acknowledging the sheer stupidity of your argument. So you come up with this strawman that rivals Adam Schiff's lies in his opening statement: the only rational explanation for Trump losing is that he, and they, were the victim of global conspiracy orchestrated by a cabal of Satanic cannibal pedophiles who manufactured millions of fake votes out of chinese bamboo and then fed them to chickens

That view of the other side is the very reason this country is so damn divided, irrespective of whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. And your argument is so very desperate, Myrensis, that its pulling out all the stops, even to the point of misspelling "actually" in a link to the "Republicans r hurr durr dumb" implication. I've never seen such desperation on NSG.

And for what? Defending someone who said, and I quote: we came, we saw, he died and then proceeded to laugh, mocking the misfortune of Libyans who went from a country with the highest HDI to the country with the most open air slave markets. Someone who referred to those who didn't vote for her as deplorables. Someone who failed at healthcare reform while her husband was president, and received quite a few big pharma donations for her campaign for president.

Someone who was part of a camp in the DNC that shifted the party from one that cared for the workers, to one that cares for the big tech lobbies, like Amazon. That's the hill you want to divide America on? I'd say "ouch" because the result will be an epic fail, you'll only have yourself to blame, but you'll probably blame everyone else instead, just like former President Trump did when he lost reelection.

[Your Own Private FlorIDAHO]

You see no difference between parts of one country joining an entirely different country and a few counties deciding they want to be part of a different state? What, do you think of this as Texas 2.0?

The basic premise is the same. We're being outvoted. Let's go somewhere else.

Exactly. Freedom of movement. That's your basic American's individual right of self determination. If you don't like it where you are at, move to another state. There's 50 of them plus the district and several territories. One thing in this case, don't let the sign at your state's border smack you on the ass on your way out.

[New haven america]

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

Yes.

And that sounds pretty close to their ideology. "Rules for thee but not for me", "I don't care unless it affects me", "Fuck you I got mine", etc...

[Senkaku]

Is that what I said, though?

Nope, but you implied that the proposal was driven by Bundy's craziness and I pointed out that I highly doubt that everyone's who's on board wants Bundy's craziness.

I don’t think everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a terrible person who has a positive desire for corruption, autocracy, and bad social outcomes either— indictment of elite-level leaders of a movement, and of the movement’s political goals, is not the same as personal criticism of every single supporter of said movement. Attempting to equate the two is a rather pathetic effort to avoid confronting the political reality— in this case, that right-wing extremists in eastern Oregon are becoming increasingly dangerous and are laying the groundwork for even more dangerous and violent activity.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Nope, but you implied that the proposal was driven by Bundy's craziness and I pointed out that I highly doubt that everyone's who's on board wants Bundy's craziness.

I don’t think everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a terrible person who has a positive desire for corruption, autocracy, and bad social outcomes either— indictment of elite-level leaders of a movement, and of the movement’s political goals, is not the same as personal criticism of every single supporter of said movement. Attempting to equate the two is a rather pathetic effort to avoid confronting the political reality— in this case, that right-wing extremists in eastern Oregon are becoming increasingly dangerous and are laying the groundwork for even more dangerous and violent activity.

I strongly disagree with you on the so called Oregon or any States right wingers are increasingly dangerous or dangerous of any kind. I strongly agree with you on this one. I am one of those good guy Republican Right Wingers. The same applies to the leftists, liberal Democrat Progressives and leftists of all kinds as I call them. I have posted a few times, I have a few leftist friends like these I have just described again.

[Narland]

The basic premise is the same. We're being outvoted. Let's go somewhere else.

Exactly. Freedom of movement. That's your basic American's individual right of self determination. If you don't like it where you are at, move to another state. There's 50 of them plus the district and several territories. One thing in this case, don't let the sign at your state's border smack you on the ass on your way out.

That is the issue. They are being outvoted not by themselves within their self-governing jurisdictions (counties), but by outsiders from the other counties (using the State legislature) to impose how the outside counties operate upon them.

This is one of the key grievances in the unanimous Declaration recognized as a tenet for reorganization. It is why we have Pennsylvania as distinguished from New Jersey, and Delaware; an independent Vermont from Massachusetts by the end of the Colonial era and West Virginia since Independence. Most of the time reorganization is peaceful. A few times counties have been at war within themselves over the seats of their own jurisdiction as well as a state of mixed war, the last being in 1950s. In western states until recently it was expected for counties growing beyond 35,000 people to split into more counties. Unfortunately, there is a move generally to resist this since the 1950s by the county seats because it diminishes their administrative power base.

The movement in this case is out of a disaffected and disinterested State jurisdiction not to its own State, but into an already established State jurisdiction that shares their interest and good will in common.

[Great Algerstonia]

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

Do you? Because this screams like someone who has just adamantly refused to read, watch, or listen to anything conservatives have been saying or doing for the last...well, we'll be extremely generous and call it 4 years. It goes back much further than that of course, but pre-Trump they made more of an effort to hide it, and to keep the ones who couldn't away from the cameras.

Please name every conservative in the White House that "decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide"

[Greater Miami Shores]

You're forgetting the two fundamental pillars on which absolutely all conservative thought and action are based: An all-consuming sense of entitlement, and an equally omnipresent persecution complex resulting from any failure to have that entitlement met.

You're dealing with people who decided that the only logical next step after a black President was white genocide, and who latched onto Donald Trump as the man Jesus sent to save them from it.

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

lol good one, non conservatives telling proud conservatives what they are, how they are and why they are.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Do you even know conservatives in real life? This screams like someone who gets all their political information from Twitter and r/politics

I do. Several are relations. Guess who they say is the best thing to ever happen to the US?

No need for the petty twitter comment. Sure twitter has it’s issues; you should hear what my cousins will tell you is the truth from OANN.

I know I have seen a few of your posts about your family in the past. But the Part I don't understand is, if they watch OANN and don't like it why do they watch OANN? I love OANN.

[Myrensis]

Also, I've admitted that Biden won the presidency, and that, although their were quite a few election issues, even if all of them went Trump's way, he still would've lost. But you realize, Myrensis, that you have to defend the indefensible, so you trash the other side, dividing the country, rather than acknowledging the sheer stupidity of your argument. So you come up with this strawman that rivals Adam Schiff's lies in his opening statement: the only rational explanation for Trump losing is that he, and they, were the victim of global conspiracy orchestrated by a cabal of Satanic cannibal pedophiles who manufactured millions of fake votes out of chinese bamboo and then fed them to chickens

That view of the other side is the very reason this country is so damn divided, irrespective of whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. And your argument is so very desperate, Myrensis, that its pulling out all the stops, even to the point of misspelling "actually" in a link to the "Republicans r hurr durr dumb" implication. I've never seen such desperation on NSG.

It's nice that you have the tremendous courage to acknowledge...basic facts and reality, but doesn't mean much because the Republican party does not.

That view of the other side is because that is what they actually believe, and why the actual Republican controlled State Government of Arizona is conducting an "audit" where they have a crackpot with zero election experience pointing UV lights at ballots based on a QAnon conspiracy theory about Trump covertly ordering millions of ballots to be printed with secret watermarks so he could totally expose the Democrats massive fraud, and also rammed through a law literally stripping the Democratic Secretary of State of her authority to defend the state against bullshit election lawsuits.

And why Republicans in Texas are busily trying to rewrite the law that currently requires actual evidence of voter fraud to overturn the results of an election to say that just having a strong gut feeling that something was wrong should qualify.

And why Liz Cheney had to be purged from her leadership position for the crime of suggesting that the party should probably remain committed to acknowledging reality and democratic norms.

And why you have Republicans who were caught on camera barricading doors and taking cover behind Capitol police on January 6th now insisting with a straight face that there was just a friendly tourist group passing by and nothing at all unusual happened.

I'll even grant you that most of the Republican politicians involved know it's bullshit...but they're doing it anyway because their political survival depends on it, because that is the shit their base overwhelmingly believes and supports and demands action on.

I know it sucks, Shofercia, but the days when the crazies could be kept off camera and thus whitewashed and glossed over are long gone, and your attempts to blame Hillary Clinton for the Republican Party losing it's mind and becoming Donald Trumps personal death cult are just comical.

[Greater Kopmakia]

How did this go from some counties voting to join a bordering state to a political debate?

[Shofercia]

Also, I've admitted that Biden won the presidency, and that, although their were quite a few election issues, even if all of them went Trump's way, he still would've lost. But you realize, Myrensis, that you have to defend the indefensible, so you trash the other side, dividing the country, rather than acknowledging the sheer stupidity of your argument. So you come up with this strawman that rivals Adam Schiff's lies in his opening statement: the only rational explanation for Trump losing is that he, and they, were the victim of global conspiracy orchestrated by a cabal of Satanic cannibal pedophiles who manufactured millions of fake votes out of chinese bamboo and then fed them to chickens

That view of the other side is the very reason this country is so damn divided, irrespective of whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. And your argument is so very desperate, Myrensis, that its pulling out all the stops, even to the point of misspelling "actually" in a link to the "Republicans r hurr durr dumb" implication. I've never seen such desperation on NSG.

It's nice that you have the tremendous courage to acknowledge...basic facts and reality, but doesn't mean much because the Republican party does not.

That view of the other side is because that is what they actually believe, and why the actual Republican controlled State Government of Arizona is conducting an "audit" where they have a crackpot with zero election experience pointing UV lights at ballots based on a QAnon conspiracy theory about Trump covertly ordering millions of ballots to be printed with secret watermarks so he could totally expose the Democrats massive fraud, and also rammed through a law literally stripping the Democratic Secretary of State of her authority to defend the state against bullshit election lawsuits.

And why Republicans in Texas are busily trying to rewrite the law that currently requires actual evidence of voter fraud to overturn the results of an election to say that just having a strong gut feeling that something was wrong should qualify.

And why Liz Cheney had to be purged from her leadership position for the crime of suggesting that the party should probably remain committed to acknowledging reality and democratic norms.

And why you have Republicans who were caught on camera barricading doors and taking cover behind Capitol police on January 6th now insisting with a straight face that there was just a friendly tourist group passing by and nothing at all unusual happened.

I'll even grant you that most of the Republican politicians involved know it's bullshit...but they're doing it anyway because their political survival depends on it, because that is the shit their base overwhelmingly believes and supports and demands action on.

I know it sucks, Shofercia, but the days when the crazies could be kept off camera and thus whitewashed and glossed over are long gone, and your attempts to blame Hillary Clinton for the Republican Party losing it's mind and becoming Donald Trumps personal death cult are just comical.

First, I'm not a member of any party.

Second, Liz Cheney is a warmonger, and wars cost money. The Republicans have to balance out the Libertarian Wing of "our debt is too high!" with the Populist Wing of "give us more Government Stimuli" and wasting money on warfare isn't going to help that. This is why Cheney's being purged, whereas Collins is not, even though Collins also spoke out against Trump. Cheney can cry all of the "Orange Man Bad" crocodile tears she wants, but the real reason is that Neocons became the dinosaurs in the Republican Party ever since they backstabbed the Republicans with the Lincoln Project. So on the basis of policy and faction power, Cheney's just a waste of space in the Republican Party.

Seriously, compare her to Collins, who is balancing out the Populists with the Libertarians - what's the difference in their stance on Trump? They're both elderly white ladies, but one's purged, the other isn't, and policies are the reason, but you're too blind to see that, because you don't think that Republicans act on policies. "My faction backstabbed my party, my economic policies misalign with my party, but the real reason I'm purged is because Orange Man Bad, waaa!" Suuuure. And I distinctly remember a Clinton supporter on NSG trying to argue that "Orange Man Bad" should be banned under the doctrine of political nicknaming, but of course it's the Republicans that want to shut down discourse!

Third, I'm not blaming Hillary Clinton for the actions of the Republican Party, I'm blaming Hillary Clinton for the actions of Hillary Clinton, but realizing that would cause you to acknowledge basic facts.

Fourth, the Republican Texas Law has yet to be established and challenged in SCOTUS, and need I remind you that SCOTUS sided with Biden, despite being Republican. Also, most of the Republicans I know are saying that January 6th was the same as the violent protests that lit shit on fire, which they've also opposed. I've yet to see a Republican who's like "January 6th FTW!" Even those who thought about participating, privately admitted that it was wrong. In fact Collins didn't even want to block the January 6th Commission. Not seeing her lose much support over that. And just to be clear, my main issue with SCOTUS remains the disastrous "Churches < Casinos" ruling, which had nothing to do with the election.