256 Gazans killed by unlawful Israeli bombardment

[Saiwania]

What I'm getting at is that you are condemning Israel by your support of them. Having you in their corner makes them look bad. Most Israel apologists try to pretend that Israel is just defending itself, but along you come openly eager for Israel to commit genocide.

Its not genocide because I insist that this is war between two factions. One is just substantially weaker and is so intransigent as to not know when they've been beat. Palestine from my perspective should either defeat Israel outright somehow or someway, or agree to any deal offered if they've indeed lost. No more of this nonsense about holding out for better terms because fact is, they don't have leverage and won't agree to any good faith peace deal even if they did have enough leverage to bring Israel into negotiations.

Palestine had a chance to settle things with Israel like Egypt did long ago, but always refuses. If they lost they lost. Don't they get that if they lose again, maybe that just results in more territory being "off the table" for them?

You lose a land war, and the norm is that the victor possibly annexes that land and the loser maybe loses that territory.

[Al-Muqawama]

It doesn't make any logical sense for me to side with Palestine, regardless of how "oppressed" they supposedly are. Even if I wanted to back them, why should I trade their experiment of an independent state for an actual sovereign nation that has a track record of already being broadly successful across most metrics? If Israel turned their portion of the desert into an oasis, I can't argue with the results.

I'm of course going to back not dismantling that, especially not if the Palestinians are so unproven and unreliable. That locale as I recall, celebrated the 9/11 attacks. I'm intentionally choosing to back what is by all accounts- a fully developed nation over one that isn't legitimate or causes regional instability more often than not.

Very succesful yes due to billions of US funds while the other country, Gaza in particular, is systematically isolated due to Israeli policies. Palestine wasn't a wasteland when the Jews arrived en masse post-1948.

[Ifreann]

What I'm getting at is that you are condemning Israel by your support of them. Having you in their corner makes them look bad. Most Israel apologists try to pretend that Israel is just defending itself, but along you come openly eager for Israel to commit genocide.

Its not genocide because I insist that this is war between two factions. One is just substantially weaker and is so intransigent as to not know when they've been beat. Palestine from my perspective should either defeat Israel outright somehow or someway, or agree to any deal offered if they've indeed lost. No more of this nonsense about holding out for better terms because fact is, they don't have leverage and won't agree to any good faith peace deal even if they did have enough leverage to bring Israel into negotiations.

Palestine had a chance to settle things with Israel like Egypt did long ago, but always refuses. If they lost they lost. Don't they get that if they lose again, maybe that just results in more territory being "off the table" for them?

Your insistence is irrelevant, as is your naive incomprehension of the Palestinian position. The point is that winning the approval of fascists makes Israel look bad. The Israelis would probably prefer that you didn't openly support them.

[Lady Victory]

What I'm getting at is that you are condemning Israel by your support of them. Having you in their corner makes them look bad. Most Israel apologists try to pretend that Israel is just defending itself, but along you come openly eager for Israel to commit genocide.

Its not genocide because I insist that this is war between two factions. One is just substantially weaker and is so intransigent as to not know when they've been beat. Palestine from my perspective should either defeat Israel outright somehow or someway, or agree to any deal offered if they've indeed lost. No more of this nonsense about holding out for better terms because fact is, they don't have leverage and won't agree to any good faith peace deal even if they did have enough leverage to bring Israel into negotiations.

Palestine had a chance to settle things with Israel like Egypt did long ago, but always refuses. If they lost they lost. Don't they get that if they lose again, maybe that just results in more territory being "off the table" for them?

You lose a land war, and the norm is that the victor possibly annexes that land and the loser maybe loses that territory.

Yes, Sai, we know you don't care about human lives when they don't fit your arbitrary definition of 'white'. Thank you for reminding us.

[Al-Muqawama]

What I'm getting at is that you are condemning Israel by your support of them. Having you in their corner makes them look bad. Most Israel apologists try to pretend that Israel is just defending itself, but along you come openly eager for Israel to commit genocide.

Its not genocide because I insist that this is war between two factions. One is just substantially weaker and is so intransigent as to not know when they've been beat. Palestine from my perspective should either defeat Israel outright somehow or someway, or agree to any deal offered if they've indeed lost. No more of this nonsense about holding out for better terms because fact is, they don't have leverage and won't agree to any good faith peace deal even if they did have enough leverage to bring Israel into negotiations.

Palestine had a chance to settle things with Israel like Egypt did long ago, but always refuses. If they lost they lost. Don't they get that if they lose again, maybe that just results in more territory being "off the table" for them?

You lose a land war, and the norm is that the victor possibly annexes that land and the loser maybe loses that territory.

Except that the PLO did sign a peace treaty with Israel called OSLO II accords. Those accords are being ignored by Israel allowing settlers in the West bank. That begs the question whether signing a treaty is fruitful if the bigger party just ignores it.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It doesn't make any logical sense for me to side with Palestine, regardless of how "oppressed" they supposedly are. Even if I wanted to back them, why should I trade their experiment of an independent state for an actual sovereign nation that has a track record of already being broadly successful across most metrics? If Israel turned their portion of the desert into an oasis, I can't argue with the results.

I'm of course going to back not dismantling that, especially not if the Palestinians are so unproven and unreliable. That locale as I recall, celebrated the 9/11 attacks. I'm intentionally choosing to back what is by all accounts- a fully developed nation over one that isn't legitimate or causes regional instability more often than not.

Like 100 people supported it. Most Palestinians did not enjoy seeing innocent Americans die, but I doubt you'd know because outside of here you actively probably avoid dealing with people who don't look the same as you.

[Dowaesk]

YAAAASSSS. I have cracked it. The way to peace. Palestine will get justice. And Israel will get their state.

[Dowaesk]

Look at what I found. Israel hitting up with youtube. Wouldnt be surprised if I start finding new hardcore pro-Israeli children and teens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl5cjRI8CrM&t=2s

[Tarsonis]

Its not genocide because I insist that this is war between two factions. One is just substantially weaker and is so intransigent as to not know when they've been beat. Palestine from my perspective should either defeat Israel outright somehow or someway, or agree to any deal offered if they've indeed lost. No more of this nonsense about holding out for better terms because fact is, they don't have leverage and won't agree to any good faith peace deal even if they did have enough leverage to bring Israel into negotiations.

Palestine had a chance to settle things with Israel like Egypt did long ago, but always refuses. If they lost they lost. Don't they get that if they lose again, maybe that just results in more territory being "off the table" for them?

You lose a land war, and the norm is that the victor possibly annexes that land and the loser maybe loses that territory.

Except that the PLO did sign a peace treaty with Israel called OSLO II accords. Those accords are being ignored by Israel allowing settlers in the West bank. That begs the question whether signing a treaty is fruitful if the bigger party just ignores it.

OSLO II was an interim agreement, not a full on treaty of lasting peace. Hamas explicitly rejects the Camp David Accords in their charter and RFP pulled out of the accords 20 years ago. Nobody is ignoring OSLO because OSLO is defunct.

[Ifreann]

Except that the PLO did sign a peace treaty with Israel called OSLO II accords. Those accords are being ignored by Israel allowing settlers in the West bank. That begs the question whether signing a treaty is fruitful if the bigger party just ignores it.

OSLO II was an interim agreement, not a full on treaty of lasting peace. Hamas explicitly rejects the Camp David Accords in their charter and RFP pulled out of the accords 20 years ago. Nobody is ignoring OSLO because OSLO is defunct.

Your words sadden Jan Egeland.

[Tarsonis]

OSLO II was an interim agreement, not a full on treaty of lasting peace. Hamas explicitly rejects the Camp David Accords in their charter and RFP pulled out of the accords 20 years ago. Nobody is ignoring OSLO because OSLO is defunct.

Your words sadden Jan Egeland.

The truth is a cruel mistress.

[Lady Victory]

YAAAASSSS. I have cracked it. The way to peace. Palestine will get justice. And Israel will get their state.

([url=https://i.postimg.cc/Z0LJmpRd/pvm8evzkncz61.jpg]Image)[/url]

You're talking about forcefully removing millions of people and shipping them half-way across the globe because you want the land their living on to go to some other people.

Where I'm from that's called genocide. It's also quite literally how Israel was founded in the first place, and what it's trying to do to the West Bank.

[The Reformed American Republic]

YAAAASSSS. I have cracked it. The way to peace. Palestine will get justice. And Israel will get their state.

([url=https://i.postimg.cc/Z0LJmpRd/pvm8evzkncz61.jpg]Image)[/url]

You're talking about forcefully removing millions of people and shipping them half-way across the globe because you want the land their living on to go to some other people.

Where I'm from that's called genocide. It's also quite literally how Israel was founded in the first place, and what it's trying to do to the West Bank.

It's not genocide, but it is ethnic cleansing, and thus not good.

[Ifreann]

You're talking about forcefully removing millions of people and shipping them half-way across the globe because you want the land their living on to go to some other people.

Where I'm from that's called genocide. It's also quite literally how Israel was founded in the first place, and what it's trying to do to the West Bank.

It's not genocide, but it is ethnic cleansing, and thus not good.

Those are synonyms.

[Lady Victory]

You're talking about forcefully removing millions of people and shipping them half-way across the globe because you want the land their living on to go to some other people.

Where I'm from that's called genocide. It's also quite literally how Israel was founded in the first place, and what it's trying to do to the West Bank.

It's not genocide, but it is ethnic cleansing, and thus not good.

Ethnic cleansing is genocide, and vice-versa. They're literally the same thing.

[Saiwania]

This idea that all of Israel's people can be relocated to the US is absurd. Completely undoable.

First of all, the US isn't majority Jewish and isn't intended as a Jewish state either. Matter of fact, most American Jews are rumored to be becoming less Jewish over time because they're in the process of being assimilated into non-Jewish families or abandoning the Jewish faith and practices. This is on top of the fact that antisemitism is on the rise in the US in a broad sense. Democratic party is gravitating towards supporting Palestine more and so on.

TYT and the "squad" of woke Progressives are basically siding with only Palestine simply because Palestine is less powerful. Its just more of this opressed vs. oppressor nonsense that wants privilege to be identified. This "critical race theory" stuff branching out possibly.

[Seangoli]

It's not genocide, but it is ethnic cleansing, and thus not good.

Ethnic cleansing is genocide, and vice-versa. They're literally the same thing.

They are related, though not the same thing. Genocide specifically entails extermination of a group due to perceived biologically traits. Ethnicity is a bit more complex, and while often involves biological components, does not necessarily rely on them and instead involves broader concepts of culture, society, etc. Of a given group. Equally, ethnic cleansing does not necessarily involve the eradication a group wholesale, and instead can involve the displacement or expulsion of a group from an area based on their ethnicity.

That said, all genocides are effectively ethnic cleansing a, however not all ethnic cleansings are necessarily genocidal. Genocide is a subset of ethnic cleansing, but by no means the only form.

The easiest difference is that ethnic cleansing can involve groups that are directly related to one another genetically and biologically, and instead can focus on more abstract cultural differences. It also doesn't necessarily (though often does) involve the extermination of a group through killing them off, and instead can focus on their expulsion and removal from an area.

[Ifreann]

This idea that all of Israel's people can be relocated to the US is absurd. Completely undoable.

First of all, the US isn't majority Jewish and isn't intended as a Jewish state either. Matter of fact, most American Jews are rumored to be becoming less Jewish over time because they're in the process of being assimilated into non-Jewish families or abandoning the Jewish faith and practices. This is on top of the fact that antisemitism is on the rise in the US in a broad sense. Democratic party is gravitating towards supporting Palestine more and so on.

TYT and the "squad" of woke Progressives are basically siding with only Palestine simply because Palestine is less powerful. Its just more of this opressed vs. oppressor nonsense that wants privilege to be identified. This "critical race theory" stuff branching out possibly.

You explicitly side with Israel because they are more powerful. You support ethnic cleansing. All of your objections here are insincere.

[Muzehnaya]

TYT and the "squad" of woke Progressives are basically siding with only Palestine simply because Palestine is less powerful. Its just more of this opressed vs. oppressor nonsense that wants privilege to be identified. This "critical race theory" stuff branching out possibly.

And yet just a page ago you say that you side with Israel because it's more powerful

[Saiwania]

And yet just a page ago you say that you side with Israel because it's more powerful

I don't recognize it as an issue or moral failing, because what ultimately matters is GDP potential and the flow of world trade and power. What country is going to be better for the region if only one can be chosen? Israel which built an advanced civilization worth $40,000+ per capita and regularly innovates, or Palestine- which is just a Hamas sanctuary that launches rockets or strikes whenever they're emboldened by Iran/Hezbollah?

I'd prefer Israel keep existing to have regular deals made than to have Palestine take their place undeservedly.

[Ifreann]

And yet just a page ago you say that you side with Israel because it's more powerful

I don't recognize it as an issue or moral failing, because what ultimately matters is GDP potential and the flow of world trade and power. What country is going to be better for the region if only one can be chosen? Israel which built an advanced civilization worth $40,000+ per capita and regularly innovates, or Palestine- which is just a Hamas sanctuary that launches rockets or strikes whenever they're emboldened by Iran/Hezbollah?

Of course you don't see any issue with proudly supporting the oppressor one moment only to turn around and sputter objections when other people support the oppressed.

[Punished UMN]

Except that the PLO did sign a peace treaty with Israel called OSLO II accords. Those accords are being ignored by Israel allowing settlers in the West bank. That begs the question whether signing a treaty is fruitful if the bigger party just ignores it.

OSLO II was an interim agreement, not a full on treaty of lasting peace. Hamas explicitly rejects the Camp David Accords in their charter and RFP pulled out of the accords 20 years ago. Nobody is ignoring OSLO because OSLO is defunct.

Hamas was never a party to the Camp David Accords or the Oslo agreements, using Hamas as an excuse to not follow the agreements with the PLO/PA is blatant intellectual dishonesty. Hamas doesn't control the West Bank and it's pathetic to use them as an excuse to continue the occupation of the West Bank.

[Muzehnaya]

And yet just a page ago you say that you side with Israel because it's more powerful

I don't recognize it as an issue or moral failing, because what ultimately matters is GDP potential and the flow of world trade and power. What country is going to be better for the region if only one can be chosen? Israel which built an advanced civilization worth $40,000+ per capita and regularly innovates, or Palestine- which is just a Hamas sanctuary that launches rockets or strikes whenever they're emboldened by Iran/Hezbollah?

I'd prefer Israel keep existing to have regular deals made than to have Palestine take their place undeservedly.

Israel can also be described as a nuclear armed reckless state that is wholly unconcerned with the lives of civilians, and that is more than happy to level civilian centers if they think it will sufficiently demoralize the population or protect them from international scrutiny. Innovation and GDP be damned, that in it of itself is a long term issue that far outweighs either of those things.

[Saiwania]

Of course you don't see any issue with proudly supporting the oppressor one moment only to turn around and sputter objections when other people support the oppressed.

No successful foreign policy to my knowledge, has ever supported only the weaker side to any issue. If the US is a superpower and wants to act like one in terms of flexing its might/influence on the world stage- this is probably better acheived with backing Israel than Palestine. If the pro-Palestine faction/lobby gets its way, it'll be such a disaster as to be tantamount to South Vietnam falling.

The US doesn't act against China for example, for their internal affairs because their trade or military leverage is considered far more important. The US acts against China if any action is taken rather- because it is an emerging and powerful rival and threat like the Soviet Union used to be.

[Wallenburg]

This extermination-genocide talk is a stretch (but that's me and I can't talk for others who might espouse differing views).

Its not a stretch partially if its true that 84% of the world's Jews live in only two places: Israel and the US. The US Jews are said to be becoming more non-Jewish over time by default, because they're increasingly assimilating into non-Jewish families or switching to other ideologies such as atheism.

"assimilating into non-Jewish families"
Whistleblowing for 400, Alex.

All destroying Israel will accomplish is making the Jews "stateless" again like the Kurds presently are,

Israelis aren't Jews. Also, while the fantasy annihilation of Israel would indeed render Israelis stateless, the slightly more realistic outcome of Israel ceasing to implement ethnonationalist policies (I know, terrifying prospect for you) would result in no stateless Israelis and far fewer stateless Palestinians than there currently are.

and will revive the concept of a "Jewish question" for those places that decide to want to trend towards antisemitism but there no longer exists any place such people can emigrate to.

The disestablishment of the Israeli ethnostate isn't going to turn anyone to the JQ who wasn't already deeply anti-Semitic. You know that, of course, being someone who firmly believes in it yourself.