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256 Gazans killed by unlawful Israeli bombardment

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Tue May 25, 2021 5:37 am

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Tue May 25, 2021 5:52 am



Israel’s police force is calling “Operation Law and Order.”


I must commend the Israeli police on their creativity. That's Tom Clancy levels of operation naming.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Tue May 25, 2021 5:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Insaanistan » Tue May 25, 2021 6:02 am

Wow, Israel is the king of deception.
It’s Hebrew account on Instagram is posting videos of IDF strikes on targets in Palestine, trying to portray it as strong, intimidating and formidable to Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s English account is posting videos of Israelis running from the few Hamas rockets that actually hit anything, attempting to portray itself to the rest of the world as helpless, innocent, and the one defending itself from a senseless attack.
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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Tue May 25, 2021 7:22 am

Insaanistan wrote:Wow, Israel is the king of deception.
It’s Hebrew account on Instagram is posting videos of IDF strikes on targets in Palestine, trying to portray it as strong, intimidating and formidable to Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s English account is posting videos of Israelis running from the few Hamas rockets that actually hit anything, attempting to portray itself to the rest of the world as helpless, innocent, and the one defending itself from a senseless attack.


I don't blame them. "We're getting shot at by rockets" makes an easier soundbite than "We're the strategic and moral choice being the only stable democracy in the region with first world values and we probably have a better trade and diplomatic relationship with your country especially in the arms industry. Also Eurovision."

Palestine is seeing underdogism as a virtue initself, so I'd guess Israel is following that.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Tue May 25, 2021 7:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 25, 2021 7:25 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:Wow, Israel is the king of deception.
It’s Hebrew account on Instagram is posting videos of IDF strikes on targets in Palestine, trying to portray it as strong, intimidating and formidable to Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s English account is posting videos of Israelis running from the few Hamas rockets that actually hit anything, attempting to portray itself to the rest of the world as helpless, innocent, and the one defending itself from a senseless attack.


I don't blame them. "We're getting shot at by rockets" makes an easier soundbite than "We're the strategic and moral choice being the only stable democracy in the region with first world values and we probably have a better trade and diplomatic relationship with your country especially in the arms industry. Also Eurovision."

Also most normal people aren't swayed by any of those latter things.

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Tue May 25, 2021 7:25 am

Ifreann wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I don't blame them. "We're getting shot at by rockets" makes an easier soundbite than "We're the strategic and moral choice being the only stable democracy in the region with first world values and we probably have a better trade and diplomatic relationship with your country especially in the arms industry. Also Eurovision."

Also most normal people aren't swayed by any of those latter things.


Exactly.
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Deacarsia
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248 Gazans killed by unlawful Israeli bombardment

Postby Deacarsia » Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 am

Nakena wrote:Is there a specific reason you use "æ" here?

I think it looks neat.

That is about it.
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue May 25, 2021 10:39 am

Deacarsia wrote:
Nakena wrote:Is there a specific reason you use "æ" here?

I think it looks neat.

That is about it.

Meh, not really.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 25, 2021 10:41 am

Deacarsia wrote:
Nakena wrote:Is there a specific reason you use "æ" here?

I think it looks neat.

That is about it.

I just think it's næt.

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Tue May 25, 2021 10:43 am

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته-Peace be with you!
BLM - Free Palestine - Abolish Kafala - Boycott Israel - Trump lost
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 25, 2021 1:40 pm

So I’m more convinced that Bibi orchestrated this whole mess. Apparently on May 10th the anti-Bibi change coalition, which included the Arab parties, announced that it had was nearing a successful conclusion and would have the support to have a new non-Bibi PM on the 28th of May.

That same night the Israeli military and police stormed several mosques in Israel which kick started this mess and had the intended effect of destroying the anti-Bibi bloc.

Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a democratic ruler but a dictator in the same vein as Putin and other autocratic leaders.

The US should withdraw aid until Bibi steps down
Last edited by Thermodolia on Tue May 25, 2021 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue May 25, 2021 2:48 pm

Thermodolia wrote:So I’m more convinced that Bibi orchestrated this whole mess. Apparently on May 10th the anti-Bibi change coalition, which included the Arab parties, announced that it had was nearing a successful conclusion and would have the support to have a new non-Bibi PM on the 28th of May.

That same night the Israeli military and police stormed several mosques in Israel which kick started this mess and had the intended effect of destroying the anti-Bibi bloc.

Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a democratic ruler but a dictator in the same vein as Putin and other autocratic leaders.

The US should withdraw aid until Bibi steps down


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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 25, 2021 3:54 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Wow, Israel is the king of deception.
It’s Hebrew account on Instagram is posting videos of IDF strikes on targets in Palestine, trying to portray it as strong, intimidating and formidable to Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s English account is posting videos of Israelis running from the few Hamas rockets that actually hit anything, attempting to portray itself to the rest of the world as helpless, innocent, and the one defending itself from a senseless attack.


Well would you not do the same thing if you were them? It is not even technically false, those rockets and people fleeing are real. The best propaganda tells the truth, but not the whole truth.

That is just them being smart.
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Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 25, 2021 3:57 pm

Thermodolia wrote:So I’m more convinced that Bibi orchestrated this whole mess. Apparently on May 10th the anti-Bibi change coalition, which included the Arab parties, announced that it had was nearing a successful conclusion and would have the support to have a new non-Bibi PM on the 28th of May.

That same night the Israeli military and police stormed several mosques in Israel which kick started this mess and had the intended effect of destroying the anti-Bibi bloc.

Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a democratic ruler but a dictator in the same vein as Putin and other autocratic leaders.

The US should withdraw aid until Bibi steps down


That might be enough to topple him, but is politically risky.
The Bibi problem is the result of their utterly dysfunctional party list proportional system. Unless you get rid of that system and use a French like system it is very hard to have a functional government.
Israel needs a new constitution.

So they actually can be a stable democracy again.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue May 25, 2021 4:02 pm

Ireland becomes first member of EU to recognize & reject Israel's de-facto, illegal annexation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank

The Government has recognised Israel's illegal settlements as a de facto annexation of Palestinian land.

Minister for Foreign Affairs, Simon Coveney, said a Sinn Féin motion on the issue "is a clear signal of the depth of feeling across Ireland."

"The Government shares that grave concern," he said.

"The scale, pace and strategic nature" of Israel's settlement action "is de facto annexation", Minister Coveney told deputies.

He said that Ireland is the first EU state to say so, adding that he does not "do it lightly".

Sinn Féin's spokesperson on Foreign Affairs, John Brady, who introduced the motion, welcomed this remark.

However, Mr Coveney said that he had been "deeply troubled" by Sinn Féin's refusal "to call on Hamas to respect international law" in the motion, let alone condemn its attacks on Israel.

The Government would support the motion if an ammendment to include that condemnation was included.

Tonight the amendment was adopted.

Deputy Brady said that since January, Israel has approved 2,500 additional settlement dwellings. 460 of these are in East Jerusalem, he said.

The organisation Peace Now said that in 2020, Israel had "approved or advanced" 12,000 settlement units, he added, the most since the group began monitoring this in 2012.

A ceasefire brokered by Egypt with the help of the US came into effect in Gaza on Friday.

It followed the worst violence in recent years.

At least 254 Palestinians were killed, including 66 children with 10 deaths in Israel. Almost 2,000 people were injured. Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley said the world had "looked on in horror" at the violence.

Gary Gannon said the Social Democrats were proud to co-sign the motion.

Labour also proudly supported it, Brendan Howlin declared.

"Through deliberate, brutal, calculated action" Israel sought to undermine the prospect of an independent Palestinian state, he said.

Welcoming Minister Coveney's words, Mr Howlin said "periodic condemnation is simply not enough".

The US will veto any strong statement on Israel at the UN, he warned. He added that a consensus approach was not possible.

It was "shocking" that it took two weeks to get "a press statement" from the United Nations Security Council, Mr Howlin told the Dáil.

Richard Boyd Barrett, Solidarity-PBP, repeated his call for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled. Anything less than a complete boycott on Israel "is meaningless", he said.

Mary Lou MacDonald, Sinn Féin leader, said the Dáil stands in solidarity with the Palestinian people. She accused Israel of being a "serial violator of international law".

Today represents "the most explicit and united call from this parliament against annexation", she said.

Deputy MacDonald called on the Government to "hold Israel to account".

She said the case of Palestine is "the acid test for the international community".

"Do we stand with the brutalised, traumatised refugees of Gaza - or with the Israeli military machine?" she asked.

Sinn Féin's Imelda Munster told Minister Coveney that Ireland's seat on the Security Council entails a responsibility to stand up for the vulnerable.

The Dáil will vote tomorrow on a People Before Profit amendment of the Sinn Féin Private Members motion.

If passed, the amendment would require the Government to expel the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland and seeks economic, political and cultural sanctions against Israel.
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Insaanistan
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Insaanistan » Tue May 25, 2021 4:06 pm

Kowani wrote:Ireland becomes first member of EU to recognize & reject Israel's de-facto, illegal annexation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank

The Government has recognised Israel's illegal settlements as a de facto annexation of Palestinian land.

Minister for Foreign Affairs, Simon Coveney, said a Sinn Féin motion on the issue "is a clear signal of the depth of feeling across Ireland."

"The Government shares that grave concern," he said.

"The scale, pace and strategic nature" of Israel's settlement action "is de facto annexation", Minister Coveney told deputies.

He said that Ireland is the first EU state to say so, adding that he does not "do it lightly".

Sinn Féin's spokesperson on Foreign Affairs, John Brady, who introduced the motion, welcomed this remark.

However, Mr Coveney said that he had been "deeply troubled" by Sinn Féin's refusal "to call on Hamas to respect international law" in the motion, let alone condemn its attacks on Israel.

The Government would support the motion if an ammendment to include that condemnation was included.

Tonight the amendment was adopted.

Deputy Brady said that since January, Israel has approved 2,500 additional settlement dwellings. 460 of these are in East Jerusalem, he said.

The organisation Peace Now said that in 2020, Israel had "approved or advanced" 12,000 settlement units, he added, the most since the group began monitoring this in 2012.

A ceasefire brokered by Egypt with the help of the US came into effect in Gaza on Friday.

It followed the worst violence in recent years.

At least 254 Palestinians were killed, including 66 children with 10 deaths in Israel. Almost 2,000 people were injured. Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley said the world had "looked on in horror" at the violence.

Gary Gannon said the Social Democrats were proud to co-sign the motion.

Labour also proudly supported it, Brendan Howlin declared.

"Through deliberate, brutal, calculated action" Israel sought to undermine the prospect of an independent Palestinian state, he said.

Welcoming Minister Coveney's words, Mr Howlin said "periodic condemnation is simply not enough".

The US will veto any strong statement on Israel at the UN, he warned. He added that a consensus approach was not possible.

It was "shocking" that it took two weeks to get "a press statement" from the United Nations Security Council, Mr Howlin told the Dáil.

Richard Boyd Barrett, Solidarity-PBP, repeated his call for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled. Anything less than a complete boycott on Israel "is meaningless", he said.

Mary Lou MacDonald, Sinn Féin leader, said the Dáil stands in solidarity with the Palestinian people. She accused Israel of being a "serial violator of international law".

Today represents "the most explicit and united call from this parliament against annexation", she said.

Deputy MacDonald called on the Government to "hold Israel to account".

She said the case of Palestine is "the acid test for the international community".

"Do we stand with the brutalised, traumatised refugees of Gaza - or with the Israeli military machine?" she asked.

Sinn Féin's Imelda Munster told Minister Coveney that Ireland's seat on the Security Council entails a responsibility to stand up for the vulnerable.

The Dáil will vote tomorrow on a People Before Profit amendment of the Sinn Féin Private Members motion.

If passed, the amendment would require the Government to expel the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland and seeks economic, political and cultural sanctions against Israel.

Ah, Ireland. You’ve always been pro-Palestine. We appreciate you.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 25, 2021 4:50 pm

Novus America wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:So I’m more convinced that Bibi orchestrated this whole mess. Apparently on May 10th the anti-Bibi change coalition, which included the Arab parties, announced that it had was nearing a successful conclusion and would have the support to have a new non-Bibi PM on the 28th of May.

That same night the Israeli military and police stormed several mosques in Israel which kick started this mess and had the intended effect of destroying the anti-Bibi bloc.

Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a democratic ruler but a dictator in the same vein as Putin and other autocratic leaders.

The US should withdraw aid until Bibi steps down


That might be enough to topple him, but is politically risky.
The Bibi problem is the result of their utterly dysfunctional party list proportional system. Unless you get rid of that system and use a French like system it is very hard to have a functional government.
Israel needs a new constitution.

So they actually can be a stable democracy again.

Well Israel has never had a constitution in the first place. Which again is part of the problem. I don’t think a French style system would work given how much power the French president has.

Instead i think the Israelis need to have a different electoral system, more like Ireland or New Zealand.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 25, 2021 5:04 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
That might be enough to topple him, but is politically risky.
The Bibi problem is the result of their utterly dysfunctional party list proportional system. Unless you get rid of that system and use a French like system it is very hard to have a functional government.
Israel needs a new constitution.

So they actually can be a stable democracy again.

Well Israel has never had a constitution in the first place. Which again is part of the problem. I don’t think a French style system would work given how much power the French president has.

Instead i think the Israelis need to have a different electoral system, more like Ireland or New Zealand.


Well true, they have British style “Constitution”, a combination of tradition, precedent and statutory law rather than an actual fully codified constitution. And that is a lot of the problem. They need a codified constitution.

But I actually think the French system might help them, because the president could act as a proper check and balance on the PM. And provide a more stable military and foreign policy.

But other systems could be looked at.
I would generally recommend against party list proportional altogether though.

It only works in relatively unified societies. In hyper partisan societies with many extremes it usually produces extreme, divided and hyper partisan governance.

Given France was historically virtually ungovernable, going through some 11 constitutions in some 200 yeears. The only one that has lasted is its current one, France is much like Israel now prone to hyper partisanship and extreme political positions, the constitution it has is deliberately designed to create to knock out the more extreme elements via single member districts with run offs, and a division of powers to keep the presidency and parliament in check.
It might not be the most representative per se, but it would be the best way to get an Israeli government that could negotiate reasonably negotiate foreign policy more easily.
Last edited by Novus America on Tue May 25, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Thermodolia
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Posts: 76265
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 25, 2021 5:09 pm

Novus America wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Well Israel has never had a constitution in the first place. Which again is part of the problem. I don’t think a French style system would work given how much power the French president has.

Instead i think the Israelis need to have a different electoral system, more like Ireland or New Zealand.


Well true, they have British style “Constitution”, a combination of tradition, precedent and statutory law rather than an actual fully codified constitution. And that is a lot of the problem. They need a codified constitution.

But I actually think the French system might help them, because the president could act as a proper check and balance on the PM. And provide a more stable military and foreign policy.

But other systems could be looked at.
I would generally recommend against party list proportional altogether though.

It only works in relatively unified societies. In hyper partisan societies with many extremes it usually produces extreme, divided and hyper partisan governance.

Given France was historically virtually ungovernable, going through some 11 constitutions in some 200 yeears. The only one that has lasted is its current one, France is much like Israel now prone to hyper partisanship and extreme political positions, the constitution it has is deliberately designed to create to knock out the more extreme elements via single member districts with run offs, and a division of powers to keep the presidency and parliament in check.
It might not be the most representative per se, but it would be the best way to get an Israeli government that could negotiate reasonably negotiate foreign policy more easily.

That could work.

And the Irish electoral system isn’t Party List PR but Single Transferrable Vote. Basically it gives the ability to have a more fair election without having to worry about the PR mess.

And tbh a French system with STV would actually work better as the President would still be a member of the executive so you’d have a stable government.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 25, 2021 5:14 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well true, they have British style “Constitution”, a combination of tradition, precedent and statutory law rather than an actual fully codified constitution. And that is a lot of the problem. They need a codified constitution.

But I actually think the French system might help them, because the president could act as a proper check and balance on the PM. And provide a more stable military and foreign policy.

But other systems could be looked at.
I would generally recommend against party list proportional altogether though.

It only works in relatively unified societies. In hyper partisan societies with many extremes it usually produces extreme, divided and hyper partisan governance.

Given France was historically virtually ungovernable, going through some 11 constitutions in some 200 yeears. The only one that has lasted is its current one, France is much like Israel now prone to hyper partisanship and extreme political positions, the constitution it has is deliberately designed to create to knock out the more extreme elements via single member districts with run offs, and a division of powers to keep the presidency and parliament in check.
It might not be the most representative per se, but it would be the best way to get an Israeli government that could negotiate reasonably negotiate foreign policy more easily.

That could work.

And the Irish electoral system isn’t Party List PR but Single Transferrable Vote. Basically it gives the ability to have a more fair election without having to worry about the PR mess.

And tbh a French system with STV would actually work better as the President would still be a member of the executive so you’d have a stable government.


True, STV would probably work fairly well for Israel. And you could have an STV Semi Presidential system.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Dowaesk
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dowaesk » Wed May 26, 2021 12:15 am

Kowani wrote:Ireland becomes first member of EU to recognize & reject Israel's de-facto, illegal annexation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank

The Government has recognised Israel's illegal settlements as a de facto annexation of Palestinian land.

Minister for Foreign Affairs, Simon Coveney, said a Sinn Féin motion on the issue "is a clear signal of the depth of feeling across Ireland."

"The Government shares that grave concern," he said.

"The scale, pace and strategic nature" of Israel's settlement action "is de facto annexation", Minister Coveney told deputies.

He said that Ireland is the first EU state to say so, adding that he does not "do it lightly".

Sinn Féin's spokesperson on Foreign Affairs, John Brady, who introduced the motion, welcomed this remark.

However, Mr Coveney said that he had been "deeply troubled" by Sinn Féin's refusal "to call on Hamas to respect international law" in the motion, let alone condemn its attacks on Israel.

The Government would support the motion if an ammendment to include that condemnation was included.

Tonight the amendment was adopted.

Deputy Brady said that since January, Israel has approved 2,500 additional settlement dwellings. 460 of these are in East Jerusalem, he said.

The organisation Peace Now said that in 2020, Israel had "approved or advanced" 12,000 settlement units, he added, the most since the group began monitoring this in 2012.

A ceasefire brokered by Egypt with the help of the US came into effect in Gaza on Friday.

It followed the worst violence in recent years.

At least 254 Palestinians were killed, including 66 children with 10 deaths in Israel. Almost 2,000 people were injured. Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley said the world had "looked on in horror" at the violence.

Gary Gannon said the Social Democrats were proud to co-sign the motion.

Labour also proudly supported it, Brendan Howlin declared.

"Through deliberate, brutal, calculated action" Israel sought to undermine the prospect of an independent Palestinian state, he said.

Welcoming Minister Coveney's words, Mr Howlin said "periodic condemnation is simply not enough".

The US will veto any strong statement on Israel at the UN, he warned. He added that a consensus approach was not possible.

It was "shocking" that it took two weeks to get "a press statement" from the United Nations Security Council, Mr Howlin told the Dáil.

Richard Boyd Barrett, Solidarity-PBP, repeated his call for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled. Anything less than a complete boycott on Israel "is meaningless", he said.

Mary Lou MacDonald, Sinn Féin leader, said the Dáil stands in solidarity with the Palestinian people. She accused Israel of being a "serial violator of international law".

Today represents "the most explicit and united call from this parliament against annexation", she said.

Deputy MacDonald called on the Government to "hold Israel to account".

She said the case of Palestine is "the acid test for the international community".

"Do we stand with the brutalised, traumatised refugees of Gaza - or with the Israeli military machine?" she asked.

Sinn Féin's Imelda Munster told Minister Coveney that Ireland's seat on the Security Council entails a responsibility to stand up for the vulnerable.

The Dáil will vote tomorrow on a People Before Profit amendment of the Sinn Féin Private Members motion.

If passed, the amendment would require the Government to expel the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland and seeks economic, political and cultural sanctions against Israel.

I have found a new love for Ireland.
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 am

Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


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Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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The Huskar Social Union
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Posts: 58257
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed May 26, 2021 2:39 am

Thermodolia wrote:So I’m more convinced that Bibi orchestrated this whole mess. Apparently on May 10th the anti-Bibi change coalition, which included the Arab parties, announced that it had was nearing a successful conclusion and would have the support to have a new non-Bibi PM on the 28th of May.

That same night the Israeli military and police stormed several mosques in Israel which kick started this mess and had the intended effect of destroying the anti-Bibi bloc.

Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a democratic ruler but a dictator in the same vein as Putin and other autocratic leaders.

The US should withdraw aid until Bibi steps down

It wouldnt surprise me if he did orchestrate it.

Kowani wrote:Ireland becomes first member of EU to recognize & reject Israel's de-facto, illegal annexation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank

The Government has recognised Israel's illegal settlements as a de facto annexation of Palestinian land.

Minister for Foreign Affairs, Simon Coveney, said a Sinn Féin motion on the issue "is a clear signal of the depth of feeling across Ireland."

"The Government shares that grave concern," he said.

"The scale, pace and strategic nature" of Israel's settlement action "is de facto annexation", Minister Coveney told deputies.

He said that Ireland is the first EU state to say so, adding that he does not "do it lightly".

Sinn Féin's spokesperson on Foreign Affairs, John Brady, who introduced the motion, welcomed this remark.

However, Mr Coveney said that he had been "deeply troubled" by Sinn Féin's refusal "to call on Hamas to respect international law" in the motion, let alone condemn its attacks on Israel.

The Government would support the motion if an ammendment to include that condemnation was included.

Tonight the amendment was adopted.

Deputy Brady said that since January, Israel has approved 2,500 additional settlement dwellings. 460 of these are in East Jerusalem, he said.

The organisation Peace Now said that in 2020, Israel had "approved or advanced" 12,000 settlement units, he added, the most since the group began monitoring this in 2012.

A ceasefire brokered by Egypt with the help of the US came into effect in Gaza on Friday.

It followed the worst violence in recent years.

At least 254 Palestinians were killed, including 66 children with 10 deaths in Israel. Almost 2,000 people were injured. Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley said the world had "looked on in horror" at the violence.

Gary Gannon said the Social Democrats were proud to co-sign the motion.

Labour also proudly supported it, Brendan Howlin declared.

"Through deliberate, brutal, calculated action" Israel sought to undermine the prospect of an independent Palestinian state, he said.

Welcoming Minister Coveney's words, Mr Howlin said "periodic condemnation is simply not enough".

The US will veto any strong statement on Israel at the UN, he warned. He added that a consensus approach was not possible.

It was "shocking" that it took two weeks to get "a press statement" from the United Nations Security Council, Mr Howlin told the Dáil.

Richard Boyd Barrett, Solidarity-PBP, repeated his call for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled. Anything less than a complete boycott on Israel "is meaningless", he said.

Mary Lou MacDonald, Sinn Féin leader, said the Dáil stands in solidarity with the Palestinian people. She accused Israel of being a "serial violator of international law".

Today represents "the most explicit and united call from this parliament against annexation", she said.

Deputy MacDonald called on the Government to "hold Israel to account".

She said the case of Palestine is "the acid test for the international community".

"Do we stand with the brutalised, traumatised refugees of Gaza - or with the Israeli military machine?" she asked.

Sinn Féin's Imelda Munster told Minister Coveney that Ireland's seat on the Security Council entails a responsibility to stand up for the vulnerable.

The Dáil will vote tomorrow on a People Before Profit amendment of the Sinn Féin Private Members motion.

If passed, the amendment would require the Government to expel the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland and seeks economic, political and cultural sanctions against Israel.
Woo Ireland.
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Picairn
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Posts: 8763
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Wed May 26, 2021 3:16 am

Novus America wrote:Well true, they have British style “Constitution”, a combination of tradition, precedent and statutory law rather than an actual fully codified constitution. And that is a lot of the problem. They need a codified constitution.

But I actually think the French system might help them, because the president could act as a proper check and balance on the PM. And provide a more stable military and foreign policy.

But other systems could be looked at.
I would generally recommend against party list proportional altogether though.

It only works in relatively unified societies. In hyper partisan societies with many extremes it usually produces extreme, divided and hyper partisan governance.

Given France was historically virtually ungovernable, going through some 11 constitutions in some 200 yeears. The only one that has lasted is its current one, France is much like Israel now prone to hyper partisanship and extreme political positions, the constitution it has is deliberately designed to create to knock out the more extreme elements via single member districts with run offs, and a division of powers to keep the presidency and parliament in check.
It might not be the most representative per se, but it would be the best way to get an Israeli government that could negotiate reasonably negotiate foreign policy more easily.

There is an excellent Washington Post article in 2013 (full article if paywalled) which analyzed how dysfunctional Israel's politics are due to open party-list voting system and suggested mixed-member proportional (MMP) as a superior option. A 2005 survey of election experts also ranked MMP as the best system, apparently.
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Novus America
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Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Wed May 26, 2021 5:59 am

Picairn wrote:
Novus America wrote:Well true, they have British style “Constitution”, a combination of tradition, precedent and statutory law rather than an actual fully codified constitution. And that is a lot of the problem. They need a codified constitution.

But I actually think the French system might help them, because the president could act as a proper check and balance on the PM. And provide a more stable military and foreign policy.

But other systems could be looked at.
I would generally recommend against party list proportional altogether though.

It only works in relatively unified societies. In hyper partisan societies with many extremes it usually produces extreme, divided and hyper partisan governance.

Given France was historically virtually ungovernable, going through some 11 constitutions in some 200 yeears. The only one that has lasted is its current one, France is much like Israel now prone to hyper partisanship and extreme political positions, the constitution it has is deliberately designed to create to knock out the more extreme elements via single member districts with run offs, and a division of powers to keep the presidency and parliament in check.
It might not be the most representative per se, but it would be the best way to get an Israeli government that could negotiate reasonably negotiate foreign policy more easily.

There is an excellent Washington Post article in 2013 (full article if paywalled) which analyzed how dysfunctional Israel's politics are due to open party-list voting system and suggested mixed-member proportional (MMP) as a superior option. A 2005 survey of election experts also ranked MMP as the best system, apparently.


Well pretty much anything would be better than their current system. MMP could certainly be looked at as well.
It would still allow the more extreme parties to have some representation without running the show.

The problem with that assumption though, that there is a single “best” electoral system globally is it assumes that electoral systems work equally well regardless of the underlying political culture. That article says that it believes it to be the best on average, that does not mean it would necessarily be the best for Israel though. Maybe it would, but it is not good to assume there is one best electoral system for all places.

The French system for example would not work as well in certain places, it is really designed to keep the extreme elements sidelined in an political landscape prone to hyper partisan extremism. It is not necessarily the best in less divided and more cooperative political cultures.

Party list does work some places, but it does not work in Israel nowadays.

But sure the exact details of what system Israel should use can be debated. Regardless Israel needs a massive constitutional change, and its current party list system needs to be replaced, if Israel is to resolve the problems it is facing, such as its issues with the Palestinian Arabs.

But in addition to the way the parliament is elected, it also has to be considered if a pure parliamentary system is best as well. You can have a semi presidential system with a MMP parliament of course. And a semi presidential system does tend to bring more stability to foreign policy compared to the parliamentary system as the person making the foreign policy is not dependent on parliamentary coalitions, to stay in power, and does not have try to run the parliament at the same time they are making foreign policy decisions.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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