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by Lady Victory » Tue May 11, 2021 3:04 pm
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:The Rich Port wrote:So... What's you answer to religion somehow promoting hierarchical fascism?
Why on Earth didn't you ask that follow-up question the first time?
Anyway...
A. Stop sugar-coating religion. You sugar-coat something, you encourage it. Christians who are otherwise progressive wouldn't sugar-coat Trump, they'd put honesty about him ahead of politeness. Now let's take that same lesson and apply it to religion.
B. Stop with the special pleading about how [insert pet cause here] is more compatible with religion than it actually is. A guy who wants to smoke a reefer without going to jail over it, or a gay person who wants to marry the love of their life and adopt kids together... apart from being less severely harmed by religion than a person waiting for stem cell cures on their deathbed, have more in common with that individual AND with each other than the one who try to pretend it isn't religion that's holding them back seem to realize, and if they all saw in each other the shared common ground in being harmed by religion, they could all unite and join together in shared opposition to it.The Rich Port wrote:And if you're not advocating for systematic slaughter and/or censorship then this thread is kind of pointless.
That's a false dichotomy fit to rival "God of the gaps."
by Nakena » Tue May 11, 2021 3:18 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Germany's main weapon against Nazism is democracy and education. Even if they use coercion... Coercion is a necessity against toxic society and culture.
The Rich Port wrote:But at the same time, you don't combat authoritarianism and supremacy with authoritarianism and supremacy, you combat it with justice and democracy.
by Deacarsia » Tue May 11, 2021 3:21 pm
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
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by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
Alien Overlord wrote:You talk about gun culture and mention Waco as though Waco is somehow an example of why we shouldn't have gun ownership-If anything Waco should serve as a perfect example of why it's so important to maintain a strong policy for firearms. The whole Waco ordeal was a mess for the agencies involved in it, it was handled so poorly that it is a dark stain on the history of the ATF and FBI even today. While i digress since this isn't the main point of your post, but I do feel it is all worth mentioning.
Alien Overlord wrote:I disagree with your assessment that religion is somehow mostly to blame for homophobia. Looking at modern cultural attitudes across the world it's apparent that homophobia is rampant not in nations where religion has been most active in the last hundred years, but in the former Soviet Union and Warsaw pact nations, as well as more conservative nations such as South Korea, Indonesia, India and modern Greece. Religion was actively fought in many of these nations, yet homophobia still remains a rampant issue. Alongside that, since basically all nations and cultures have had a religious presence at one point or another, religion becomes an easy but unfair scapegoat. Correlation does not imply causation.
Alien Overlord wrote:For another very good example, you have the NSDAP in Germany during the second world war. The party was fascist and atheist in nature. It was the catholic church which actively worked to help fleeing jews escape the brutal regime, which developed a severe homophobia despite rejecting religion.
Alien Overlord wrote:I also strongly reject your opinion that religion is somehow anti-charity.
Alien Overlord wrote:If we're going to blame religion for something, we should probably blame the fanaticism that originates in many Islamic nations, or possibly stem cell research. However is it truly fair to blame those opposing stem cell research? Especially since that opposition is born from a strong desire to maintain the sanctity of life and to help prevent inhumane practices? When do people go from being nothing to being a person and what makes you more qualified to answer that question than a Christian?
Alien Overlord wrote:Just because religious thinking holds back some scientific research doesn't make religion responsible for people "suffering in deathbeds." While I'm not apt to share details about my own life, I will say that I have more reason than most to desire advancements in medical technology which might have saved lost loved ones-however to blame religion for those losses is indicative of someone seeking out a scapegoat, as though we shouldn't have religion to at least put our worst excesses into check.
Alien Overlord wrote:There are also atheists which oppose stem-cell research based off of ethical concerns
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:27 pm
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Lady Victory » Tue May 11, 2021 3:30 pm
by Insaanistan » Tue May 11, 2021 3:34 pm
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:37 pm
The Rich Port wrote:People who are actually progressive as opposed to being pseudo-fascist would not advocate for Trump unless they're also dishonest. Trump is not at all progressive in any way.
The Rich Port wrote:Which, yeah, while that happens... People also do that with religion. Unfortunately, human beings are also imperfect. That doesn't mean they deserve to be tyrannized or terrorized and it's no excuse for either China or Russia to actively discourage religion.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:39 pm
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Lady Victory » Tue May 11, 2021 3:51 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Lady Victory wrote:
There's no chance that map is accurate. Everything I've heard about Norwegians says they're fairly devout Christians. They literally have a state church and had blasphemy laws as late as the 70s.
Yeah, and England has a fake monarchy. Doesn't mean they task that fake monarchy with ruling England like they used to.
It's based on surveys of respondents on the importance of religion in their lives. Can surveys be lied to? Absolutely! But you don't get to take respondents at their word for who they're going to vote for no matter how often they've lied before, and then turn around and assume they're only pretending not to be religious. (At the very least, that's a form of Christianity at odds with the 10 commandments.)
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 4:48 pm
Lady Victory wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Yeah, and England has a fake monarchy. Doesn't mean they task that fake monarchy with ruling England like they used to.
It's based on surveys of respondents on the importance of religion in their lives. Can surveys be lied to? Absolutely! But you don't get to take respondents at their word for who they're going to vote for no matter how often they've lied before, and then turn around and assume they're only pretending not to be religious. (At the very least, that's a form of Christianity at odds with the 10 commandments.)
The problem with surveys is not everyone participates, and the participants never include a majority of the population for that reason. Nobody gives a shit about surveys.
And even if religion doesn't play a "big role" (which is such vague terminology it can mean virtually anything or nothing at all) in their personal lives, that doesn't mean they aren't religious.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 5:13 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:The Rich Port wrote:People who are actually progressive as opposed to being pseudo-fascist would not advocate for Trump unless they're also dishonest. Trump is not at all progressive in any way.
That's not the point. The point is that Christians who are otherwise progressive, and/or progressives of other or no religions who sugar-coat Christianity to avoid offending progressive Christians, are legitimizing its continued popularity, paving the way in precedent set by ignoring contradictions for other Trumps.The Rich Port wrote:Which, yeah, while that happens... People also do that with religion. Unfortunately, human beings are also imperfect. That doesn't mean they deserve to be tyrannized or terrorized and it's no excuse for either China or Russia to actively discourage religion.
I already called out your strawman. Please stop invoking it.
by Northern Socialist Council Republics » Tue May 11, 2021 5:20 pm
by Just-An-Illusion » Tue May 11, 2021 5:23 pm
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 5:26 pm
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:If we take the perspective that a religious faith cannot ever be held responsible for the actions of its adherents because human nature will out itself regardless of what particular faith horrible people give as justification for their actions, then I will remind people of that the next time people want to blame some secular faith like, oh, white supremacist nationalism or Stalinist Communism for the misdeeds of their adherents.
After all, why should a faith be treated differently just because it happens to be nonreligious in nature? An excuse that works for one ought to work for all, hmm?
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 5:26 pm
Just-An-Illusion wrote:So if religion is the root of all problems OP..... How do you think we should solve this problem hmmm?
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 5:33 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:If we take the perspective that a religious faith cannot ever be held responsible for the actions of its adherents because human nature will out itself regardless of what particular faith horrible people give as justification for their actions, then I will remind people of that the next time people want to blame some secular faith like, oh, white supremacist nationalism or Stalinist Communism for the misdeeds of their adherents.
After all, why should a faith be treated differently just because it happens to be nonreligious in nature? An excuse that works for one ought to work for all, hmm?
Nobody is arguing that religion can't be problematic.
I'm not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't ALWAYS happen.
It's on a case by case basis. Some people are not a part of organized religion... Like me.
My religion advocates progressivism and decries fascism and conservatism. I'm mostly a Daoist but that's ignoring the fact that I don't subscribe to absolutely everything Daoism "prescribes" (if you can call it that, because that's the whole point of the Dao but anyway).
Emphasis on the word INHERENT.
I would argue that Stalinist communism (AKA just dressed up hierarchical fascism) and white supremacist nationalism are inherent. There's very little of those ideologies that isn't toxic.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Northern Socialist Council Republics » Tue May 11, 2021 5:34 pm
The Rich Port wrote:I would argue that Stalinist communism (AKA just dressed up hierarchical fascism) and white supremacist nationalism are inherent. There's very little of those ideologies that isn't toxic.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 5:40 pm
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The Rich Port wrote:I would argue that Stalinist communism (AKA just dressed up hierarchical fascism) and white supremacist nationalism are inherent. There's very little of those ideologies that isn't toxic.
I don’t know know enough about Hinduism to make an intelligent comment about it.
Of the other four major world religions (Christianity, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Islam), I’d argue that all of those... well, to use your own words, “there’s very little of those ideologies that isn’t toxic.”
by North Sonovia » Tue May 11, 2021 5:46 pm
Lady Victory wrote:Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick is it really so hard for you to just let people believe in a force greater than everything else in the universe without feeling the need to "own" them?
Religion, like virtually everything else in the world, is merely a scapegoat for evil-doers to justify their villainous behavior. Take it away and they'll just find a new smokescreen to hide behind. Removing religion from society won't make everything magically better; it'll be the same shit it's always been, just a different excuse used to justify doing whatever they feel needs to be justified. If you believe otherwise then you are sorely unfamiliar with human nature.
by Northern Socialist Council Republics » Tue May 11, 2021 5:47 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Like, I don't understand why you're fighting me on this, I agree that religions should be policed for toxicity but you also can't just ban religion entirely, it's socially impossible and legislatively difficult to enforce, as the Chinese and Russians eventually figured out.
And Alt's suggestions are ridiculously vague and unconstructive... Maybe help us out here then.
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