Hypothetical Re: Olympic Glory

[Galloism]

Sure, sure, sure, but you're not understanding that if you took me and reset me to one year old and changed my entire life trajectory then I would no longer be me.

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

So if I went back in time and became Tywin Lannister and my personality, skill set, proclivities, and abilities got changed to his... I’d still be Me I still control the body like a video game joystick holder.

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

[The Free Joy State]

Sure, sure, sure, but you're not understanding that if you took me and reset me to one year old and changed my entire life trajectory then I would no longer be me.

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

So if I went back in time and became Tywin Lannister and my personality, skill set, proclivities, and abilities got changed to his... I’d still be Me if I still control the body like a video game joystick holder.

If that is what you think, my best suggestion is to read more science textbooks and watch less Game of Thrones.

Your personality and proclivities are major parts of what make you who you are. Your upbringing and environment another major part (how much is nature or nurture is still a debate).

[Infected Mushroom]

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

So if I went back in time and became Tywin Lannister and my personality, skill set, proclivities, and abilities got changed to his... I’d still be Me I still control the body like a video game joystick holder.

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

[The Free Joy State]

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

I may be the first one to tell you this, but your brain is not a video game. There are no saved states.

[Heloin]

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

It's absolutely hilarious to me that when faced with an actually question related to the metaphysical you insist without a second though that there is a definitive answer.

I may be the first one to tell you this, but your brain is not a video game. There are no saved states.

This is a permadeath server. Cheat codes are disabled.

[Suriyanakhon]

As much as I would like to reset my childhood, I really don't care about the Olympics to erase everything about myself to win a small metal disc that I can put around my neck.

[Sparanoda]

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

The thing is that the mind and body are different. The "Control Link" is between someone who lived a different life. "You" do not exist anymore. The you as you are now is not the same as a you that would exist if you grew up on the other side of the planet. There might be similarities in genetics, personality, and physical characteristics, but you and alternate you are different.

A person is like a painting. A person starts as a canvas, and the identity of the painting depends on what paints are applied to it. If I went back in time, stole some blank canvas from Da Vinci, and painted a flower on it, would it still be the Mona Lisa? No. The Mona Lisa is what it is because of the forces acting upon it - i.e., the paints that combined together in very specific ways to create a painting.

[Galloism]

I think the question you should be asking is:

What makes you you?

If I go back in time, swipe you from your family, put you in Afghanistan as a child, and you grow up in that environment, would you still be you, even if that you joined the Taliban based on what you knew and the culture you grew up in?

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

Let's say I go back a little further. Not all that much further. A matter of a few months.

And I use <insert technological medical solution from the future> to deny the hormone rush that changed you from female to male, that all males go through. Your underlying genes remain unchanged, but due to forming ovaries instead of testes, and the other changes from denying this critical rush of hormones during development, you are born female. An XY female, but still a female. Same genes.

Are you still you, even though you believe yourself to be female, present as female, grew up as female, and were pushed into the female olympics by some really suck ass parents? Are you still you, even though nothing in your life would be anything like what you know, and none of your beliefs and views about yourself would likely be the same at all?

[Luziyca]

Probably not: mainly because all the choices that made me me in this timeline would not exist in that timeline. Sure, maybe if I became a good enough rock climber I might be able to compete at Tokyo in rock climbing on behalf of Canada, but I would not be here to post on this thread. I would not have found this community, and I would certainly have not pissed away the past 12 or so years on this site, because I'd be busy preparing to win a gold at Tokyo.

Had I not been stung by a wasp, had I not discovered SkipTheDishes, had I lived in a family who is not part of the precariat, all of those things would have changed my life, but it would not be me that exists right now. It would be someone different, even if it's just someone who didn't sneeze several times in a row because of how messy their living room is. And the me in 2031 would almost certainly be different from the me in 2031 if I don't make those decisions that shape my path in the next decade.

[Deacarsia]

I choose my current life.

All that glisters is not gold.

[Infected Mushroom]

Me = that link between mind and body

You can alter the components of the mind and body to an extent, but so long as I retain that Control Link, I exist as an entity

So in your scenario, if I can still jump, swim, or fight when I want to... I am Me.

If I’m now in Spectator Mode where I see through the eyes of that Taliban kid but can’t will my body to move in specific ways, then I’ve become a third party

Let's say I go back a little further. Not all that much further. A matter of a few months.

And I use <insert technological medical solution from the future> to deny the hormone rush that changed you from female to male, that all males go through. Your underlying genes remain unchanged, but due to forming ovaries instead of testes, and the other changes from denying this critical rush of hormones during development, you are born female. An XY female, but still a female. Same genes.

Are you still you, even though you believe yourself to be female, present as female, grew up as female, and were pushed into the female olympics by some really suck ass parents? Are you still you, even though nothing in your life would be anything like what you know, and none of your beliefs and views about yourself would likely be the same at all?

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

[The Free Joy State]

Let's say I go back a little further. Not all that much further. A matter of a few months.

And I use <insert technological medical solution from the future> to deny the hormone rush that changed you from female to male, that all males go through. Your underlying genes remain unchanged, but due to forming ovaries instead of testes, and the other changes from denying this critical rush of hormones during development, you are born female. An XY female, but still a female. Same genes.

Are you still you, even though you believe yourself to be female, present as female, grew up as female, and were pushed into the female olympics by some really suck ass parents? Are you still you, even though nothing in your life would be anything like what you know, and none of your beliefs and views about yourself would likely be the same at all?

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

So, if nothing changed about a person's life, personality, proclivities, family, upbringing, experiences, but they became a quadriplegic (i.e. they could not will their body to move) they would no longer be the same person?

That is the logical extension of what you are saying.

And why your concept fails even basic scrutiny.

[Suriyanakhon]

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

There's no “entity” which exists outside of the physical, your brain is a biological organ that would be shaped by hormones like the rest of your body.

[Kannap]

Sure, sure, sure, but you're not understanding that if you took me and reset me to one year old and changed my entire life trajectory then I would no longer be me.

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

So if I went back in time and became Tywin Lannister and my personality, skill set, proclivities, and abilities got changed to his... I’d still be Me if I still control the body like a video game joystick holder.

...

So the exception would be... I’m Tywin now AND the supernatural entity decides how my limbs move (with a type of command override like how a tank commander can take over the gunner’s controls from his seat)

I'm me, who I am today, because of the things I've done and experienced over the course of the last 24 years. Naturally, there are some things I was born with and can't change, but a lot of who you become as a person is based on your past experiences. As we build upon those experiences we become a different person sometimes, and that's okay, that's good. I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago, and I'll probably be a different person in another 5 years.

Of course, I'm physically the same person, the same slab of meat in my head controlling this human vessel I use to piss myself around the surface of the Earth, sure. But that's hardly the important part, innit?

[Kannap]

Let's say I go back a little further. Not all that much further. A matter of a few months.

And I use <insert technological medical solution from the future> to deny the hormone rush that changed you from female to male, that all males go through. Your underlying genes remain unchanged, but due to forming ovaries instead of testes, and the other changes from denying this critical rush of hormones during development, you are born female. An XY female, but still a female. Same genes.

Are you still you, even though you believe yourself to be female, present as female, grew up as female, and were pushed into the female olympics by some really suck ass parents? Are you still you, even though nothing in your life would be anything like what you know, and none of your beliefs and views about yourself would likely be the same at all?

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

So is you are predominantly based on physical aspects of human nature or solely on physical aspects of human nature? Because you seem to be removing personality from the equation altogether, which I would argue is the predominant force that makes a person who they are.

[Ifreann]

Sure, sure, sure, but you're not understanding that if you took me and reset me to one year old and changed my entire life trajectory then I would no longer be me.

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

Your understanding is wrong, and I struggle to imagine how you could have come to this bizarre and wrong understanding.

[Infected Mushroom]

My understanding of identity is that if you can still 100 percent will your (new) body to move then you are still you.

So if I went back in time and became Tywin Lannister and my personality, skill set, proclivities, and abilities got changed to his... I’d still be Me if I still control the body like a video game joystick holder.

...

So the exception would be... I’m Tywin now AND the supernatural entity decides how my limbs move (with a type of command override like how a tank commander can take over the gunner’s controls from his seat)

I'm me, who I am today, because of the things I've done and experienced over the course of the last 24 years. Naturally, there are some things I was born with and can't change, but a lot of who you become as a person is based on your past experiences. As we build upon those experiences we become a different person sometimes, and that's okay, that's good. I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago, and I'll probably be a different person in another 5 years.

Of course, I'm physically the same person, the same slab of meat in my head controlling this human vessel I use to piss myself around the surface of the Earth, sure. But that's hardly the important part, innit?

Yes. But your identity (who you are) is a fluid concept. It can change, whether you go forward or backward in time or if it gets transferred to another body etc

[Infected Mushroom]

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

So is you are predominantly based on physical aspects of human nature or solely on physical aspects of human nature? Because you seem to be removing personality from the equation altogether, which I would argue is the predominant force that makes a person who they are.

Personalities can change.

[Kalosia]

Oooh that means I get to grow up athletic and potentially become tall/muscular/have any of the features that athletes have that I find attractive. And be a pro at figure skating or whatever sport I choose.

Sign me up!



...although technically I don't need to be an athlete to achieve a certain physique but it sure is easier, huh? Not to mention the first 20 years or so of human life is the most crucial to one's development so being trained from a young age sets one up for better success later on in life. And this is assuming I can still casually pursue hobbies or other interests on the side, or at least once I've peaked.

edit: Of course this means I would likely not be on NationStates or have met many of the amazing people I have in my lifetime or have many of the experiences I have, but I probably wouldn't know what I'm missing anyway in this alternate timeline. If anything, there are experiences and moments I would've loved to have in my current life that I don't know about, that I would never know I missed.

[The Free Joy State]

So is you are predominantly based on physical aspects of human nature or solely on physical aspects of human nature? Because you seem to be removing personality from the equation altogether, which I would argue is the predominant force that makes a person who they are.

Personalities can change.

Gradually, throughout your life, as a result of your experiences. However, IRL, sudden personality changes are more unusual and can even be a sign of a medical or mental health disorder.

However, if you change your upbringing, your experiences, your family, your environment and if there is a total change of your personality and the form of your body, you will be in no way the same person.

[Kannap]

I'm me, who I am today, because of the things I've done and experienced over the course of the last 24 years. Naturally, there are some things I was born with and can't change, but a lot of who you become as a person is based on your past experiences. As we build upon those experiences we become a different person sometimes, and that's okay, that's good. I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago, and I'll probably be a different person in another 5 years.

Of course, I'm physically the same person, the same slab of meat in my head controlling this human vessel I use to piss myself around the surface of the Earth, sure. But that's hardly the important part, innit?

Yes. But your identity (who you are) is a fluid concept. It can change, whether you go forward or backward in time or if it gets transferred to another body etc

To an extent, sure. Like I said, the events I experience and decisions I make in the next five years may make me a different person than I am today but I'll still be me.

But that only applies to the future, as I keep moving forward and change as a person, I am still me. However, if you go back in time and railroad me onto a different path, changing a pivotal decision or even a minor event that made me who I am today, you've taken away part of who I am.

Entertaining the theory of alternate universes, there are infinite Kannaps out there living different versions of their lives but none of them are me. If you go back and time and change the college I decided to go to first, for example, and shunt Kannap onto another alternate timeline, that's no longer me - the Kannap who exists in this reality and is typing this post right now.

[Kannap]

So is you are predominantly based on physical aspects of human nature or solely on physical aspects of human nature? Because you seem to be removing personality from the equation altogether, which I would argue is the predominant force that makes a person who they are.

Personalities can change.

I agree, but only in the sense that you've made a statement so vague that its meaningless.

Elaborate.

[Galloism]

Let's say I go back a little further. Not all that much further. A matter of a few months.

And I use <insert technological medical solution from the future> to deny the hormone rush that changed you from female to male, that all males go through. Your underlying genes remain unchanged, but due to forming ovaries instead of testes, and the other changes from denying this critical rush of hormones during development, you are born female. An XY female, but still a female. Same genes.

Are you still you, even though you believe yourself to be female, present as female, grew up as female, and were pushed into the female olympics by some really suck ass parents? Are you still you, even though nothing in your life would be anything like what you know, and none of your beliefs and views about yourself would likely be the same at all?

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

And let's say I go back a little further and just, tweak your DNA a bit. Not a whole lot. Just enough to make you more passive and less likely to get aggressive with anyone. It's for the good of your trainers of course - to keep you from lashing out at them.

[The Free Joy State]

Personalities can change.

I agree, but only in the sense that you've made a statement so vague that its meaningless.

Elaborate.

But it's also not wholly true, which is why I made a reference to abrupt personality changes being something worth investigating outside the boundaries of a hypothetical.

While our families, our upbringing, our experiences all contribute to our personality, it is thought that aspects of our personalities are very evident from a few months old -- before we can even talk. A longitudinal study found that infants classified as “well-adjusted”, “under-controlled”, “confident”, “inhibited” or “reserved” will be mostly consistent at age 26.

Further research suggests that a child's personality by first grade is pretty much set for life.

[Infected Mushroom]

Yes if I am still able to consciously use my brain to move all parts of my body

You have replaced some of the internal biological hardware but not necessarily to the extent that the control link from entity to the physical has been severed

Am I still able to will the body to move? That’s the key for me

And let's say I go back a little further and just, tweak your DNA a bit. Not a whole lot. Just enough to make you more passive and less likely to get aggressive with anyone. It's for the good of your trainers of course - to keep you from lashing out at them.

if you alter the DNA without me losing motor control (that Control Link between mind and body), then I would say I am still me