Afghan Conflict: Russian Political Leader Meets With Massoud

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The bigger issue is why are we discussing the semantics of what the Talib Stasi calls themselves?

[Fahran]

The bigger issue is why are we discussing the semantics of what the Talib Stasi calls themselves?

Well, the substance of the matter is that they're going to be the ones imposing their strict interpretation of sharia on people, mostly women, and carrying out the punishments. I expect a couple lashings to be reported before year's end.

[Chess Reloaded]

Both are translations, there isn't some canonical English translation. Propagation/enjoining/ordaining virtue/good prevention/forbidding evil/vice it's all a translation of the Arabic term.

I was going to say. Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice sounds like a plausible translation of the local language.

Muslims among themselves often use the Arabic phrase whether or not they speak Arabic. I wasn't aware you were familiar with Dari or Pashto though the phrase itself in English is used by Muslims outside Afghanistan and was used in a general sense of translating the Arabic by Taliban like in My Life with the Taliban which also translates Allah as God. Virtue and Vice probably convey the meaning better in English as things like forcing people to dress decently are included which isn't seen as forbidding evil the west. It primarily functions as a Shari'ah Vice Squad but it also ensures people don't publicly slack on mandatory fasts or prayers which is the “enjoining good”. It also deals with bigger things like violent criminals but the meat and potatoes is stuff like music

[Diahon]

The bigger issue is why are we discussing the semantics of what the Talib Stasi calls themselves?

Well, the substance of the matter is that they're going to be the ones imposing their strict interpretation of sharia on people, mostly women, and carrying out the punishments. I expect a couple lashings to be reported before year's end.

the substance of the matter is that we fucking failed and these fucking murderers can now play with lives like the toys they've always fucking wanted

[Diahon]

I was going to say. Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice sounds like a plausible translation of the local language.

Muslims among themselves often use the Arabic phrase whether or not they speak Arabic. I wasn't aware you were familiar with Dari or Pashto though the phrase itself in English is used by Muslims outside Afghanistan and was used in a general sense of translating the Arabic by Taliban like in My Life with the Taliban which also translates Allah as God. Virtue and Vice probably convey the meaning better in English as things like forcing people to dress decently are included which isn't seen as forbidding evil the west. It primarily functions as a Shari'ah Vice Squad but it also ensures people don't publicly slack on mandatory fasts or prayers which is the “enjoining good”. It also deals with bigger things like violent criminals but the meat and potatoes is stiff like music

and of fucking course you're cheering your not-idols on

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Muslims among themselves often use the Arabic phrase whether or not they speak Arabic. I wasn't aware you were familiar with Dari or Pashto though the phrase itself in English is used by Muslims outside Afghanistan and was used in a general sense of translating the Arabic by Taliban like in My Life with the Taliban which also translates Allah as God. Virtue and Vice probably convey the meaning better in English as things like forcing people to dress decently are included which isn't seen as forbidding evil the west. It primarily functions as a Shari'ah Vice Squad but it also ensures people don't publicly slack on mandatory fasts or prayers which is the “enjoining good”. It also deals with bigger things like violent criminals but the meat and potatoes is stiff like music

and of fucking course you're cheering your not-idols on

I mean the guy ur talking to is completely ok with tyranny as long as its his own religious tribe doing it. This should've ceased to surprise you long ago.

[Fahran]

Muslims among themselves often use the Arabic phrase whether or not they speak Arabic. I wasn't aware you were familiar with Dari or Pashto though the phrase itself in English is used by Muslims outside Afghanistan and was used in a general sense of translating the Arabic by Taliban like in My Life with the Taliban which also translates Allah as God.

I know bits and pieces of Arabic and Dari. My knowledge isn't comprehensive, and my Arabic is likely much better than my Dari. I still plan to properly learn Arabic.

Virtue and Vice probably convey the meaning better in English as things like forcing people to dress decently are included which isn't seem as forbidding evil the west. It primarily functions as a Shari'ah Vice Squad but it also ensures people don't publicly slack on mandatory fasts or prayers which is the “enjoining good”. It also deals with bigger things like violent criminals but the meat and potatoes is stiff like music

It's a bit sad given how central music and poetry have been to Pashtun culture. But, yeah, virtue and vice are probably the best words in English. I think most people understand the crux of what these folks are about.

[Fahran]

I mean the guy ur talking to is completely ok with tyranny as long as its his own religious tribe doing it. This should've ceased to surprise you long ago.

I doubt he's altogether tribal. One of the big things Islamic revivalists have promoted is unity in Islam. Mind you, it's perhaps the most extreme brand of Islam ever practiced historically, but they do have some stiff competition. Like the Almoravids or Almohads, who, in fairness, belonged to different schools.

Islam in Afghanistan has largely been employed as a unifying force, not especially surprising given the ethnic diversity of the country. This has been true whether it was under the monarchy, the Soviet remnants, the Northern Alliance, or the Taliban.

[Kowani]

Well, the substance of the matter is that they're going to be the ones imposing their strict interpretation of sharia on people, mostly women, and carrying out the punishments. I expect a couple lashings to be reported before year's end.

the substance of the matter is that we fucking failed and these fucking murderers can now play with lives like the toys they've always fucking wanted

im not sure we could actually have succeeded tbh
we knew the taliban was going to take over as soon as we left all the way back in the 2000's

the only exit condition where afghanistan is a "liberal" country probably involves concentration camps and what are essentially modern residential schools, only much longer-lasting

all of this while the war continues btw

[Chess Reloaded]

Muslims among themselves often use the Arabic phrase whether or not they speak Arabic. I wasn't aware you were familiar with Dari or Pashto though the phrase itself in English is used by Muslims outside Afghanistan and was used in a general sense of translating the Arabic by Taliban like in My Life with the Taliban which also translates Allah as God.

I know bits and pieces of Arabic and Dari. My knowledge isn't comprehensive, and my Arabic is likely much better than my Dari. I still plan to properly learn Arabic.

Virtue and Vice probably convey the meaning better in English as things like forcing people to dress decently are included which isn't seem as forbidding evil the west. It primarily functions as a Shari'ah Vice Squad but it also ensures people don't publicly slack on mandatory fasts or prayers which is the “enjoining good”. It also deals with bigger things like violent criminals but the meat and potatoes is stiff like music

It's a bit sad given how central music and poetry have been to Pashtun culture. But, yeah, virtue and vice are probably the best words in English. I think most people understand the crux of what these folks are about.

Bacha bazi is a cultural practice as well

[Chess Reloaded]

the substance of the matter is that we fucking failed and these fucking murderers can now play with lives like the toys they've always fucking wanted

im not sure we could actually have succeeded tbh
we knew the taliban was going to take over as soon as we left all the way back in the 2000's

the only exit condition where afghanistan is a "liberal" country probably involves concentration camps and what are essentially modern residential schools, only much longer-lasting

all of this while the war continues btw

The communists tried playing hardball anyway and it didn't pan out. Two million killed and it just made Afghanistan Islamist

[Diahon]

and of fucking course you're cheering your not-idols on

I mean the guy ur talking to is completely ok with tyranny as long as its his own religious tribe doing it. This should've ceased to surprise you long ago.

surprised, no
still outraged, yes
i mean, you want to expect better from people

[Fahran]

Bacha bazi is a cultural practice as well

I'm aware.

I don't think Afghan poetry and music, which can be traced back over a thousand years, are as obviously harmful and immoral as bacha bazi though. I imagine they would burn manuscripts from Ibn Arabi and Antarah ibn Shaddad.

[Chess Reloaded]

Bacha bazi is a cultural practice as well

I'm aware.

I don't think Afghan poetry and music, which can be traced back over a thousand years, are as obviously harmful and immoral as bacha bazi though.

Unfortunately today playing at boy dancing parties is actually a major gig for professional musicians and reciters

[Diahon]

im not sure we could actually have succeeded tbh
we knew the taliban was going to take over as soon as we left all the way back in the 2000's

the only exit condition where afghanistan is a "liberal" country probably involves concentration camps and what are essentially modern residential schools, only much longer-lasting

all of this while the war continues btw

The communists tried playing hardball anyway and it didn't pan out. Two million killed and it just made Afghanistan Islamist

no, it made your not-idols islamists

they are not afghanistan and they will never be, no matter how they bloody up their fuckedup emirate

none of them can claim to be afghan even as they tear to shreds what meant to be afghan before they came and made it their bloody playground

[Fahran]

Unfortunately today playing at boy dancing parties is actually a major gig for professional musicians and reciters

Do you have evidence of this?

Because my inclination has been to believe that this has more to do with blanket bans on music and poetry that the Taliban enforced before, even in private and when no other crimes were committed.

[Fahran]

Snip.

I'm not certain I agree with either of y'all. Firstly, because most of the Taliban didn't actually fight the Soviets in any notable capacity, with the exception of Haqqani and his militia. A couple present leaders served under various warlords, but didn't come to prominence until the 1990s. The bulk of the fighting forces are younger men, many of whom were likely boys when 9/11 happened.

[Kowani]

im not sure we could actually have succeeded tbh
we knew the taliban was going to take over as soon as we left all the way back in the 2000's

the only exit condition where afghanistan is a "liberal" country probably involves concentration camps and what are essentially modern residential schools, only much longer-lasting

all of this while the war continues btw

The communists tried playing hardball anyway and it didn't pan out. Two million killed and it just made Afghanistan Islamist

i mean that is not quite the kind of hardball i am talking about but it is a good example of why this would fail anyway

The communists tried playing hardball anyway and it didn't pan out. Two million killed and it just made Afghanistan Islamist

no, it made your not-idols islamists

they are not afghanistan and they will never be, no matter how they bloody up their fuckedup emirate

none of them can claim to be afghan even as they tear to shreds what meant to be afghan before they came and made it their bloody playground

shocker, the meaning of "afghan" isn't static

[Fahran]

i mean that is not quite the kind of hardball i am talking about but it is a good example of why this would fail anyway

I actually don't think it would fail in the long-term. It would just be inhumane to the extreme. For instance, I think China will eventually succeed in assimilating the Uyghurs.

[Chess Reloaded]

Unfortunately today playing at boy dancing parties is actually a major gig for professional musicians and reciters

Do you have evidence of this?

Because my inclination has been to believe that this has more to do with blanket bans on music and poetry that the Taliban enforced before, even in private and when no other crimes were committed.

I have anecdotal evidence from those I know in Kabul. Music and poetry definitely existed outside those contexts but if you do it for a living gigs that actually pay were very sparse and a big portion of them are parties and in mos big t secular parties in Kabul....

[Chess Reloaded]

i mean that is not quite the kind of hardball i am talking about but it is a good example of why this would fail anyway

I actually don't think it would fail in the long-term. It would just be inhumane to the extreme. For instance, I think China will eventually succeed in assimilating the Uyghurs.

Uygurs are an extremely dominated minority, a big different. Also a lot have been consequently taken in by the Taliban where their militants got most of their training, although the Taliban will not allow their jihadists to use Afghanistan as a base of operations

[Diahon]

even more of a shocker: i consider terrorists as world governments consider pirates -- humani hostis generi, enemies of mankind

devoid of home and hearth, so they'll quarter themselves in other people's homes and thrash other people's hearths so they can make it their own

[Fahran]

I have anecdotal evidence from those I know in Kabul. Music and poetry definitely existed outside those contexts but if you do it for a living gigs that actually pay were very sparse and a big portion of them are parties and in mos big t secular parties in Kabul....

Pop music isn't horribly unpopular in Afghanistan though. I recall reading an article about a retired Taliban militant who had quite the fondness for older radio hits. Not to mention poets tend to be cloistered into academic and literary circles. And, really, the Pashtuns and Tajiks probably valued poetry more on average than Americans if we're counting the last thirty years. We even have war poetry from the Northern Alliance and militants.

[Chess Reloaded]

even more of a shocker: i consider terrorists as world governments consider pirates -- humani hostis generi, enemies of mankind

devoid of home and hearth, so they'll quarter themselves in other people's homes and thrash other people's hearths so they can make it their own

Do you consider the CIA to be terrorists?

[Chess Reloaded]

I have anecdotal evidence from those I know in Kabul. Music and poetry definitely existed outside those contexts but if you do it for a living gigs that actually pay were very sparse and a big portion of them are parties and in mos big t secular parties in Kabul....

Pop music isn't horribly unpopular in Afghanistan though. I recall reading an article about a retired Taliban militant who had quite the fondness for older radio hits. Not to mention poets tend to be cloistered into academic and literary circles. And, really, the Pashtuns and Tajiks probably valued poetry more on average than Americans if we're counting the last thirty years. We even have war poetry from the Northern Alliance and militants.

Poetry isn't considered haram but if you recite it and get paid to you will have limited venues with that kind of disposable income