NationStates

Atheris wrote:

1. Does toxic masculinity exist / to which extent does it exist?
2. How did it come to exist according to you?
3. How can it be solved, if it has to be solved?

1. Yes, and it's a problem.
2. The same way misogyny did.
3. It has to be solved. We solve it by destroying traditional gender roles. Stop making men the breadwinner, stop making women the housekeeper. Let a man raise a child, let a woman join the army. Let a man be a nurse, let a woman be a cop.

Already happened where I live. My dad makes less and keeps the house organized just as much as my mom. I was raised equally by my mom and dad. I know female cops and male nurses

Great Algerstonia wrote:Toxic Masculinity does not exist

Literally ever high school movie ever: "bruh."

Great Algerstonia wrote:Toxic Masculinity does not exist

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Atheris wrote:

Great Algerstonia wrote:Toxic Masculinity does not exist

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

ok

Great Algerstonia wrote:

Atheris wrote:
1. Yes, and it's a problem.
2. The same way misogyny did.
3. It has to be solved. We solve it by destroying traditional gender roles. Stop making men the breadwinner, stop making women the housekeeper. Let a man raise a child, let a woman join the army. Let a man be a nurse, let a woman be a cop.

Already happened where I live. My dad makes less and keeps the house organized just as much as my mom. I was raised equally by my mom and dad. I know female cops and male nurses

This is just your anecdotal experience, however. The true question is whether equality, alongside equity, exists on the general plane.

Great Algerstonia wrote:

Atheris wrote:
1. Yes, and it's a problem.
2. The same way misogyny did.
3. It has to be solved. We solve it by destroying traditional gender roles. Stop making men the breadwinner, stop making women the housekeeper. Let a man raise a child, let a woman join the army. Let a man be a nurse, let a woman be a cop.

Already happened where I live. My dad makes less and keeps the house organized just as much as my mom. I was raised equally by my mom and dad. I know female cops and male nurses

While I think its great that your upbringing has been more or less neutral as far as gender roles go, anecdotal evidence demonstrating the swapping of those roles in your own life does not amount to a substantial argument as to why it doesn't exist.

To be completely honest I associate the term more with a political/social agenda then I do with whatever actions it’s supposed to describe, which I tend to just file under “dickwad” activity.

Instead most of the time when I see the subject of toxic masculinity pop up it’s general meant as an attack against activities that are traditionally considered to be masculine and that the individual accusing doesn’t particularly like, generally followed by accusations of compensating for small dick size.

But that may just be due to the crowds and situations I’ve come across.

Adamede wrote:To be completely honest I associate the term more with a political/social agenda then I do with whatever actions it’s supposed to describe, which I tend to just file under “dickwad” activity.

Instead most of the time when I see the subject of toxic masculinity pop up it’s general meant as an attack against activities that are traditionally considered to be masculine and that the individual accusing doesn’t particularly like, generally followed by accusations of compensating for small dick size.

But that may just be due to the crowds and situations I’ve come across.

We've seen it in this thread.

Largely, with a few exceptions, those who have been supporting of "toxic masculinity" as a term are the same ones trying to shame men into not complaining about it using traditional male gender roles surrounding stoicism and silent resilience.

There's a huge overlap there - as we've seen in this thread. In fact, it's downright eerie how it comes up damn near without fail.

Toxic Masculinity is not dating single moms, but making them.

Galloism wrote:

Adamede wrote:To be completely honest I associate the term more with a political/social agenda then I do with whatever actions it’s supposed to describe, which I tend to just file under “dickwad” activity.

Instead most of the time when I see the subject of toxic masculinity pop up it’s general meant as an attack against activities that are traditionally considered to be masculine and that the individual accusing doesn’t particularly like, generally followed by accusations of compensating for small dick size.

But that may just be due to the crowds and situations I’ve come across.

We've seen it in this thread.

Largely, with a few exceptions, those who have been supporting of "toxic masculinity" as a term are the same ones trying to shame men into not complaining about it using traditional male gender roles surrounding stoicism and silent resilience.

There's a huge overlap there - as we've seen in this thread. In fact, it's downright eerie how it comes up damn near without fail.

I'm still not sure what activities it's supposed to be a catch-all for.

Toxic masculinity doesn’t really exist.

The only “toxic masculinity” that actually does exist is crude jokes made about females by men.

But females do the exact same thing, but nobody calls it “toxic femininity”.

I work in a fairly big office, and the jokes are rife among both sexes. It’s not an issue and people take it in good fun.

Phenix Springs wrote:Toxic masculinity doesn’t really exist.

The only “toxic masculinity” that actually does exist is crude jokes made about females by men.

But females do the exact same thing, but nobody calls it “toxic femininity”.

I work in a fairly big office, and the jokes are rife among both sexes. It’s not an issue and people take it in good fun.

That's not what toxic masculinity is. I mean making crude jokes about women could be part of it but it's the tip of the iceberg.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

Phenix Springs wrote:Toxic masculinity doesn’t really exist.

The only “toxic masculinity” that actually does exist is crude jokes made about females by men.

But females do the exact same thing, but nobody calls it “toxic femininity”.

I work in a fairly big office, and the jokes are rife among both sexes. It’s not an issue and people take it in good fun.

That's not what toxic masculinity is. I mean making crude jokes about women could be part of it but it's the tip of the iceberg.

Then what is it?

CoraSpia wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
That's not what toxic masculinity is. I mean making crude jokes about women could be part of it but it's the tip of the iceberg.

Then what is it?

Made up nonsense driven by penis envy.

CoraSpia wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
That's not what toxic masculinity is. I mean making crude jokes about women could be part of it but it's the tip of the iceberg.

Then what is it?

The following is toxic masculinity:

•Only valuing a woman for her physical appearance and saying sexually demeaning and degrading things about her.

•Telling a man who isn't as strong as you that he isn't really a man at all.

•Believing that constantly starting physical fights with people makes you even more manly and not just a menace to society.

Basically think of the biggest scumbag jock you ever were in school with, or, if you're American, think about the guy with a punisher skull on his truck and a come take it bumper sticker who talks about his guns like he went and married them. Toxic masculinity is when a person or society defines masculinity in a very obnoxious and confrontational manner.

Grinning Dragon wrote:

CoraSpia wrote:Then what is it?

Made up nonsense driven by penis envy.

What the gods honest fuck is penis envy?

CoraSpia wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
That's not what toxic masculinity is. I mean making crude jokes about women could be part of it but it's the tip of the iceberg.

Then what is it?

A self-defeating title for when men have male gender roles shoved onto them by both men and women and it leads to them not reacting well and/or shoving it on other men in turn, or something like that. The term is oftentimes viewed as an attack on masculinity in general, which it is how it is sometimes used (intentionally or not).

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

Grinning Dragon wrote:Made up nonsense driven by penis envy.

What the gods honest fuck is penis envy?

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

CoraSpia wrote:Then what is it?

The following is toxic masculinity:

•Only valuing a woman for her physical appearance and saying sexually demeaning and degrading things about her.

•Telling a man who isn't as strong as you that he isn't really a man at all.

•Believing that constantly starting physical fights with people makes you even more manly and not just a menace to society.

Basically think of the biggest scumbag jock you ever were in school with, or, if you're American, think about the guy with a punisher skull on his truck and a come take it bumper sticker who talks about his guns like he went and married them. Toxic masculinity is when a person or society defines masculinity in a very obnoxious and confrontational manner.

And some women also exhibit those same behaviors, which isn't toxic as well. Just call for what it is, someone being a shitbag.
And LOL on the punisher skull and talks about guns. That isn't toxic.

Grinning Dragon wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
The following is toxic masculinity:

•Only valuing a woman for her physical appearance and saying sexually demeaning and degrading things about her.

•Telling a man who isn't as strong as you that he isn't really a man at all.

•Believing that constantly starting physical fights with people makes you even more manly and not just a menace to society.

Basically think of the biggest scumbag jock you ever were in school with, or, if you're American, think about the guy with a punisher skull on his truck and a come take it bumper sticker who talks about his guns like he went and married them. Toxic masculinity is when a person or society defines masculinity in a very obnoxious and confrontational manner.

And some women also exhibit those same behaviors, which isn't toxic as well. Just call for what it is, someone being a shitbag.
And LOL on the punisher skull and talks about guns. That isn't toxic.

I mean it kind of is. As a gun owner myself, I think it's annoying when someone brings their guns up in a context it isn't warranted in. Like it's cool to like guns but don't start trying to impress people and show off with them. The primary reason imo someone should own a firearm is self defense.

Also we do have a term for when women exhibit toxic version of feminine behavior. Toxic femininity.

Stellar Colonies wrote:

CoraSpia wrote:Then what is it?

A self-defeating title for when men have male gender roles shoved onto them by both men and women and it leads to them not reacting well and/or shoving it on other men in turn, or something like that. The term is oftentimes viewed as an attack on masculinity in general, which it is how it is sometimes used (intentionally or not).

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
What the gods honest fuck is penis envy?

supposed envy of the male's possession of a penis, postulated by Freud to account for some aspects of female behavior (notably the castration complex) but controversial among modern theorists.

I can't say with certainty that there are zero women in the world who envy penises but I'm fairly certain 95+% of women don't. I mean I don't envy vaginas. They just exist. So why would a woman think "it sure sucks I don't have a dick"

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

Grinning Dragon wrote:
And some women also exhibit those same behaviors, which isn't toxic as well. Just call for what it is, someone being a shitbag.
And LOL on the punisher skull and talks about guns. That isn't toxic.

I mean it kind of is. As a gun owner myself, I think it's annoying when someone brings their guns up in a context it isn't warranted in. Like it's cool to like guns but don't start trying to impress people and show off with them. The primary reason imo someone should own a firearm is self defense.

Also we do have a term for when women exhibit toxic version of feminine behavior. Toxic femininity.

People like to interject and brag about their shit in conversations unrelated to the topic at hand. Happens amongst our group, we acknowledge the brag and move on, nothing about it is toxic, annoying yes, toxic no.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

CoraSpia wrote:Then what is it?

The following is toxic masculinity:

•Only valuing a woman for her physical appearance and saying sexually demeaning and degrading things about her.

•Telling a man who isn't as strong as you that he isn't really a man at all.

•Believing that constantly starting physical fights with people makes you even more manly and not just a menace to society.

Basically think of the biggest scumbag jock you ever were in school with, or, if you're American, think about the guy with a punisher skull on his truck and a come take it bumper sticker who talks about his guns like he went and married them. Toxic masculinity is when a person or society defines masculinity in a very obnoxious and confrontational manner.

So instead of using a needlessly divisive expression, it surely makes more sense for society to tackle those things in a separate and non-gendered way, no?

Ayytaly wrote:Toxic Masculinity is not dating single moms, but making them.

"toxic masculinity is when you die"
-Ayytaly, 2021

Kowani wrote:

Ayytaly wrote:Toxic Masculinity is not dating single moms, but making them.

"toxic masculinity is when you die"
-Ayytaly, 2021

Toxic masculinity is when you're ticking me off, and the more you make me mad, the toxic masculinitier it is.

CoraSpia wrote:

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
The following is toxic masculinity:

•Only valuing a woman for her physical appearance and saying sexually demeaning and degrading things about her.

•Telling a man who isn't as strong as you that he isn't really a man at all.

•Believing that constantly starting physical fights with people makes you even more manly and not just a menace to society.

Basically think of the biggest scumbag jock you ever were in school with, or, if you're American, think about the guy with a punisher skull on his truck and a come take it bumper sticker who talks about his guns like he went and married them. Toxic masculinity is when a person or society defines masculinity in a very obnoxious and confrontational manner.

So instead of using a needlessly divisive expression, it surely makes more sense for society to tackle those things in a separate and non-gendered way, no?

Fair enough, what do you think we should call this toxic version of male gender roles?