Toxic Masculinity Discussion Thread

[Galloism]

Gotcha covered.

https://seii.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads ... rier-1.pdf

Moving to outcomes during high school (four years after the bias), I find that having a
math teacher who is 1 SD more biased in favor of girls increases girls’ probability of selecting a scientific track in high school by 2.7 percentage points compared to boys. Interestingly, without teachers’ bias in favor of girls, the gender gap in choosing a science track–a predictor of careers in STEM fields–would be 11.7 percent larger in favor of boys

While actually, the average math teacher they studied had a 0.3 SD bias in favor of girls.

In literacy, they found no bias at all, btw. Boring.

I suggest that marking in middle-school to create an illusion of equality, is not the kind of injustice we should die on the hill for.

However, the study shows pretty clearly that some maths teachers have no bias, while some have quite a lot. We should sack some maths teachers, offer head-hunting salaries to attract math teachers from the UK, and we're all good, yeah?

And there's quite a lot of bias as well - they studied two classes, math and literacy. There's a lot of classes besides math and literacy.

Class discrimination intersects with gender discrimination and race discrimination - lower class black boys get all three, lower class black girls get two, lower class white girls get one, higher class black boys get two, higher class white boys get one, and higher class white girls get none at all.

But here's an examination in the same school district - which is usually made up of the same or similar classes, given how our school districts are done (this is also an issue incidentally).

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/20 ... discipline

School behaviour, and response to it, depends too much on unreliable witnesses: other students. Lots and lots of surveillance is my answer. I'm sure boys or minority students wouldn't behave any worse, if they weren't isolated or bullied by other students, so some social engineering might be called for.

The teachers are ALSO unreliable witnesses. The simple fact is that we view the same behavior out of men as being more heinous than that out of women. We can see this in a lot of contexts. School is one, but there's many others.

Schools do not so much create a social environment, as seek to modify a social environment which students make for themselves. Students are by far the majority, so imposing a culture on them is impossible. Without going too far into social engineering, schools need an excess of teachers to form classes of whatever size and age-range works, since class time is the only time staff have control over how students interact.

Yeah, it costs a bit, but if all students are 'privileged' or 'special' according to their needs, discrimination by sex becomes an irrelevant metric. It might happen, it might not, it does not matter compared the the vast disparity between "good" students and "bad" ones now.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. The article confirms the same behavior is punished more harshly when the person being punished is male.

This is a top down problem.

Notably, as I said, black students face even more along the same lines:



This is the same treatment boys get, but worse because they're also black.

Do not dare accuse me of not reading all your links. I feel no obligation to. Reading all that another poster wrote before I reply, is all that I owe anybody.

The distinction of socio-economic class is far greater, in school outcomes, college outcomes, and interaction with law-enforcement. The socioeconomic classes are nowhere near as distinct as the Male/Female classes, but with one simple qualification "of the distinct classes, boys are most clearly disadvantaged compared to girls" you would have made an affirmable statement.

WITHOUT that qualification, the disadvantage of boys is quite mild, and doesn't stack up against even Black/White. Considering you're arguing from a position of perceived privilege, it's a really bad idea to exaggerate.

This is not true. If it were quite mild, we wouldn't see the dramatic effects we're seeing throughout the school system based on gender. These effects are cumulative, self reinforcing, and continue to drive dramatic gaps in male and female achievement.

[Galloism]

In every systematic metric in the west, men are discriminated against in at least some fashion, while women are only discriminated against in some of them.

Well that just sounds silly to me. Even if you're talking about the laws-as-written, or even the laws as enforced. Most men, and most women, are only affected by the laws if they commit a crime.

But I expect you will make a list of the "systemic metrics" and unless I can provide an equally long list, you will say it is "most".

Here's a small list to start with - oh look, it was in this thread.

One specific factoid doesn't change a global, systemic, all-level discrimination from being true. And btw the police who kill men are themselves men in their large majority. Men oppressing men is indeed a problem, and if you've read my posts in other threads you would know I take police brutality as a very serious issue, but it's not the same kind of problem, and not directly relevant to feminism. Men oppressing men is not the same than men oppressing women or women oppressing men, it's not sexism but something else.

And it actually has roots into toxic masculinity so denying it exists prevent you from fixing that problem... congrats, your hatred of feminists made you unable to fix the problems you pretend you care about !

Here’s some global systemic discrimination.

1) Boys are systematically discriminated against from before they even get to kindergarten, punished more harshly for the same misbehavior in school based on sex. Across the world.
2) Boys are systematically discriminated against in school in most of the western world in a broad systemic fashion, both academically and from a discipline standpoint
3) Men are systematically discriminated against in the legal sphere, having fewer rights over their own body compared with women
4) Men are systematically discriminated against in the legal system, being more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted on the same evidence, and serve about 60% more time for equivalent crimes compared with women
5) Men are systematically disenfranchised, so much so women have had the majority of he political power in my country for over 40 years.
6) Men are systematically discriminated against in work, particularly when it comes to taking time off for family emergencies, and are punished more harshly based on sex for doing so
7) Men are systematically discriminated against when it comes to scholarships and such, even though women make up a significant majority of college attendees and graduates
8 )Men get their genitals mutilated at birth and their genital flesh used to feed the women’s makeup market (which is hugely fucked up)
9) Men are systematically discriminated against when it comes to rape and domestic violence, with authorities laughing at them and charities and shelters largely refusing to help them except when they’ve been literally forced to by the courts

And that’s just the start, off the top of my head.

And you're missing the point that "toxic masculinity" is designed as a way to blame the small time individual victims and make sure that we never ever pause long enough to look at the extreme, severe, persistent, and systematic discrimination against men by the institutions and powers in our system.

Institutions. Powers. Not "society" because any suggestion that institutions should work against society to change it, is offensively undemocratic to you.

I say the institutions should just keep doing the good work, until you raise up a majority to change them! Women deserve the same income, in fact everyone deserves the same income, whether working for a boss or raising children. That young women have been entering the workforce at the same rate as men, better qualified in some cases, yet they get penalized for work someone has to do, ie raising children, creates material disadvantage in this world where material wealth matters a lot more than whether a person gets busted for a small amount of drugs during a traffic stop.

Over-policing and violent policing does disproportionately affect men. Is the solution to that to set a quota of equal men and women pulled over or treated as suspects on a callout? Of course not. The problem is gendered, but the solution is not.

It's hugely fucked up that you think "putting victims of domestic violence in jail because they had the rudeness to be born with a penis" is "good work". It's hugely fucked up to think that institutions literally laughing at rape victims and denying them any services or help is "good work" because they had the temerity to be born a male.

It's hugely fucked up that you think people should be forced to sign up to die in the draft largely thanks to their genitals is "good work".

It's hugely fucked up that you think the institutional protection of genital mutilation is "good work".

It's absolutely hugely fucked up that you think these things are good work.

[New Piscea]

I'm autistic can I claim ableism?

No, unless he insults you or trolls you about being "autistic." The Rules can be found here. Political Geography may be arguing in bad faith, but it would be hard to make the case for rule breaking, unless you find something obvious.

My pervious post was probably a bit pessimistic, but still.

hmmm

[The Reformed American Republic]

No, unless he insults you or trolls you about being "autistic." The Rules can be found here. Political Geography may be arguing in bad faith, but it would be hard to make the case for rule breaking, unless you find something obvious.

My pervious post was probably a bit pessimistic, but still.

hmmm

And that would most likely be flaming with covers pretty much any insult, "ableist" or not. Regardless, not worth talking about. If you feel like something breaks rules, report it.

[Page]

Well that's nice. None of them uses the term "toxic masculinity" then?

Toxic masculinity is used to distract from the fact that men are the oppressed class in our society.

It's used to blame the victim. It's why they don't use it for women for the same behaviors.

You missing the forest for the trees here.

Men are a class that experience certain forms of oppression. Men are not the oppressed class though.

[Nolo gap]

the whole idea that any behavior should be dictated by gender is itself toxic.
that's really the logical basis for the coining of the term.
i believe its rejection is denial of the simple truth of that.

[Vassenor]

Toxic masculinity is used to distract from the fact that men are the oppressed class in our society.

It's used to blame the victim. It's why they don't use it for women for the same behaviors.

You missing the forest for the trees here.

Men are a class that experience certain forms of oppression. Men are not the oppressed class though.

No but you see oppression is when society is set up for your benefit and the more it bends over to help you the more oppressed you are.

[Galloism]

Toxic masculinity is used to distract from the fact that men are the oppressed class in our society.

It's used to blame the victim. It's why they don't use it for women for the same behaviors.

You missing the forest for the trees here.

Men are a class that experience certain forms of oppression. Men are not the oppressed class though.

In the gender sphere, men face a lot more systematic discrimination than women do.

If we're talking about systematic discrimination, men are the oppressed class, not women.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Men are a class that experience certain forms of oppression. Men are not the oppressed class though.

No but you see oppression is when society is set up for your benefit and the more it bends over to help you the more oppressed you are.

I bet those men who were drafted to fight and die in world War I really felt like society benefited them when it said "come with us, you're going to war." Or those young black men killed by the police, or the men who lose custody of their kids in court, or the men who get laughed at when they tell people someone raped them.

Sexism does not benefit men as much as you think it does.

[Galloism]

And yet, on this, I have the conservative advantage. It's not my place to defend these things. It's your place to change them.

You know, when you say they are doing "good work" in a conversation about doing these things, whether you intended to or not, you are defending them.

I'll support you when you support me. Payments for parenthood.

Yes, done.

Ban private ownership of guns (very much a bloke thing, you must admit, and given their role in male suicide, not something you should support).

No, not done. You think the institutions are free to oppress men now, go ahead and take their guns away. We DO need to do something specific to male suicide (Ostro has helpfully pointed out that the psychology field is woefully badly set up in regard to men's mental health, and that needs to change).

The child support thing: why are MRA's so inept at supporting it as good for everyone? Yes, some MRA's support these things but indifferently because these things do not oppose feminist demands.

I'm not an MRA and will not spend time defending MRAs. You're tilting at a windmill. As they are the bastard unwanted child of feminism, they share many of the same problems as their mother, as it were.

Institutions are by definition, what our forebears wanted. There are many things wrong with them, besides being sexist. Now if you could just find a way to oppose them while ignoring feminists (whether they would support them or not) you'd be well on the way to a politically viable platform of change.

I can't ignore people who specifically and purposefully work hard to dispute the existence of, defend, and support rapists and domestic abusers because they happen to be female. If you looked at ANY of the links I shared with you out of my long effort post, you'll see a common theme.

A group of people said "hey, this may be more equal than we thought" or "hey, let's make rape applicable to men as well as women", and feminist groups stood up and said "NO! YOU CANT MAKE IT EQUAL! YOU CANT VIEW IT EQUALLY! IF YOU VIEW IT EQUALLY YOU ARE SEXIST TRASH PIG? CAN YOU ALL BELIEVE THIS SEXIST TRASH PIG TRYING TO MAKE IT A CRIME FOR WOMEN TO RAPE MEN? MEN WILL JUST USE THIS TO CLAIM WOMEN RAPED THEM!!!!"

(Which, if you read my links, is pretty much their explicit argument in Israel and India, and the reason they still don't have gender neutral rape laws today)

How should I respond to that? No response? No pushback?

No. When you support rapists, domestic abusers, and violent attacks on people on the basis of their gender, you get pushback.

Polarizing with feminists, declaring yourself an enemy (because they did it first, or whatever) is just so futile, it's a mindless battle on the way to political change. Granted you personally do seem to avoid that, you could rebuke your fellow travellers better.

I didn't declare myself an enemy. I was a feminist. Like Erin Pizzey, I tried to bring this up in feminist circles from a feminist perspective as an equality issue.

They declared me an enemy. For seeking equality.

How should I take that?

[Boomhaueristan]

Toxic Masculinity, Toxic Sexuality, Toxic Racism, et cetera.

There are toxic people, who happen to be sexist, sure. There are all kinds of toxic people. I believe in true equality, if we're going to have a draft make it an equal draft. If we're going to have females in male dominated professional sports, then have them be forced to compete and hold the same standards as their male counterparts.

1. Does toxic masculinity exist / to which extent does it exist?

I do believe it exists in the form of plain old sexism, yes. I believe it exists because of not the inherent biological differences that make up what a male is or what a female is, but also because of societal factors.

2. How did it come to exist according to you?

I couldn't really say, I believe in the scientific fact that males are biologically stronger and made for more manual tasks, and that society has evolved alongside this fact. Yet I have never put a woman down or believed she shouldn't do something because of this fact, nor have I personally encountered it outside of people I wouldn't care to associate with.

3. How can it be solved, if it has to be solved?

Unless somehow the biological differences between a male and a female are changed through scientific mumbo jumbo... never?

There will always be people that put their skin color, gender, religion et cetera over others. The most we can do is educate them and set our children on a different path.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

One aspect of toxic masculinity that I find to be really annoying is this constant need to assert dominance or physical prowess. I recently had a guy I know threaten to beat my ass if I ever talked to a certain girl again who he had a falling out with. He claimed he was joking but I simply said "you're not gonna talk to me that way. I don't let anyone else say that to me, and I'm not gonna sit back and let you say that." I didn't threaten him or tell him "no ill kick your ass instead." I just told him "you're not gonna talk to me that way my guy. Don't make threats lightly." I'm a guy who lives by certain rules, and one major rule I live by is I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and it was after they kept physically messing with me and being repeatedly told to cut it out. It was the same guy who physically threatened me over the girl. I think it's some bullshit when someone goes looking for a fight and tries to provoke one to prove their manliness. #1 that's the mark of a little boy, not a grown man. #2 It will get your ass kicked, and then you can go get your whiteboard and explain how actually this makes you more of a man to go pick a fight you couldn't win.

Really guys, it isnt hard. Your life will be easier if you don't go looking for violence.

[Galloism]

One aspect of toxic masculinity that I find to be really annoying is this constant need to assert dominance or physical prowess. I recently had a guy I know threaten to beat my ass if I ever talked to a certain girl again who he had a falling out with. He claimed he was joking but I simply said "you're not gonna talk to me that way. I don't let anyone else say that to me, and I'm not gonna sit back and let you say that." I didn't threaten him or tell him "no ill kick your ass instead." I just told him "you're not gonna talk to me that way my guy. Don't make threats lightly." I'm a guy who lives by certain rules, and one major rule I live by is I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and it was after they kept physically messing with me and being repeatedly told to cut it out. It was the same guy who physically threatened me over the girl. I think it's some bullshit when someone goes looking for a fight and tries to provoke one to prove their manliness. #1 that's the mark of a little boy, not a grown man. #2 It will get your ass kicked, and then you can go get your whiteboard and explain how actually this makes you more of a man to go pick a fight you couldn't win.

Really guys, it isnt hard. Your life will be easier if you don't go looking for violence.

You should have convinced him to rethink his life by telling him what he was doing was "toxic masculinity", and see how persuasive that can be in convincing people to open up and consider whether their actions are good or bad.

[Dakini]

3. How can it be solved, if it has to be solved?

Unless somehow the biological differences between a male and a female are changed through scientific mumbo jumbo... never?

There's nothing about being a man that means you can't be sad or cry or show affection or show emotion other than anger or seek help when you need it or visit the doctor or eat your veggies and look after your health. The term "toxic masculinity" doesn't refer to all masculine behaviours, just the destructive ones that are also traditionally associated with masculinity.

[Galloism]

Unless somehow the biological differences between a male and a female are changed through scientific mumbo jumbo... never?

There's nothing about being a man that means you can't be sad or cry or show affection or show emotion other than anger or seek help when you need it or visit the doctor or eat your veggies and look after your health. The term "toxic masculinity" doesn't refer to all masculine behaviours, just the destructive ones that are also traditionally associated with masculinity.

Also, a supermajority of people view the term as an insult, it’s horrifically and needlessly gendered, it reinforces the actor/object dichotomy between men and women, and psychologists have said you should leave off using the term because it’s offensive and self-defeating.

If any of that matters.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Toxc masculinity is a term used by sexist radfems. It's reminiscent of the equally ridiculous term Female Hysteria.

[Thepeopl]

... I'm a guy who lives by certain rules, and one major rule I live by is I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and it was after they kept physically messing with me and being repeatedly told to cut it out. It was the same guy who physically threatened me over the girl.

Hasn't it occurred to you he might bear a grudge for being attacked without warning? "Those are my rules" doesn't mean he has to accept them as fair.

Supposing he did still bear a grudge, and you asked him if he did. Would the answer "no" mean anything at all?

It was Not without warning. The guy was repeatedly told to stop horsing around.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

One aspect of toxic masculinity that I find to be really annoying is this constant need to assert dominance or physical prowess. I recently had a guy I know threaten to beat my ass if I ever talked to a certain girl again who he had a falling out with. He claimed he was joking but I simply said "you're not gonna talk to me that way. I don't let anyone else say that to me, and I'm not gonna sit back and let you say that." I didn't threaten him or tell him "no ill kick your ass instead." I just told him "you're not gonna talk to me that way my guy. Don't make threats lightly." I'm a guy who lives by certain rules, and one major rule I live by is I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and it was after they kept physically messing with me and being repeatedly told to cut it out. It was the same guy who physically threatened me over the girl. I think it's some bullshit when someone goes looking for a fight and tries to provoke one to prove their manliness. #1 that's the mark of a little boy, not a grown man. #2 It will get your ass kicked, and then you can go get your whiteboard and explain how actually this makes you more of a man to go pick a fight you couldn't win.

Really guys, it isnt hard. Your life will be easier if you don't go looking for violence.

You should have convinced him to rethink his life by telling him what he was doing was "toxic masculinity", and see how persuasive that can be in convincing people to open up and consider whether their actions are good or bad.

You think toxic masculinity is annoying? This same person has a grudge against a friend of mine for not being cool with him and keeps calling him white privileged.

Like damn bro at least you can't help having that. You can choose to be toxic or not.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

... I'm a guy who lives by certain rules, and one major rule I live by is I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and it was after they kept physically messing with me and being repeatedly told to cut it out. It was the same guy who physically threatened me over the girl.

Hasn't it occurred to you he might bear a grudge for being attacked without warning? "Those are my rules" doesn't mean he has to accept them as fair.

Supposing he did still bear a grudge, and you asked him if he did. Would the answer "no" mean anything at all?

I told him repeatedly "stop trying to wrestle me and put me in a chokehold" like 5 times. If telling someone peacefully doesn't get the point across, they can blame themselves when I lose my shit with them.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It was Not without warning. The guy was repeatedly told to stop horsing around.

Under what circumstances of "horsing around" is it acceptable to give someone orders, without any warning that you're prepared to physically attack them? Rojava does specify "physically" messing with him, but if that's tossing pistachio shells at him wouldn't you say escalating from giving orders to a physical attack is a bit much?

"I don't threaten people at all. The last time I kicked someone's ass, I didn't warn them. I just did it, and ..."

How is it a virtue not to threaten people? Letting them learn the hard way that you're the sort of person who will kick their ass their ass without warning, seems like a great way to make enemies. But I sense it's a pride thing, it's about macho reputation, and only negative real world consequences will persuade him out of it.

It's bang on topic, which personal anecdotes usually aren't.

My guy, I don't start fights with people over throwing pistachios. Matter of fact I don't start fights at all. I dont get violent until somebody physically assaults me. And even when he did, I told him to cut it out first. Like, you can't seriously feel much sympathy for someone who was given the chance to stop acting stupid, kept crossing a line and got beat down, right?

I dont make threats because #1 threats suggest preemptive action which I don't do and #2 I hate how other people make threats and don't do anything. Just 5 weeks ago I had a couple girls threatening to kick a friend of mine's ass only to show up and give him alot of talking instead. It's annoying and lame and immature. So no, I don't make threats. If a person can't keep their hands to themselves, i don't think they require or deserve a warning beforehand. That should go without a say. The good news is I haven't physically fought someone in 3 years.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I told him repeatedly "stop trying to wrestle me and put me in a chokehold" like 5 times. If telling someone peacefully doesn't get the point across, they can blame themselves when I lose my shit with them.

Well details like pistachio shells v. chokeholds make quite a difference. He pretty much was fighting you already, so sudden escalation is OK.

Guys can be pretty aggressive while pretending they're just joking. Maybe they think that if you throw the first "serious" punch then "you started it". And other people might believe that. The first time.

I'm just tired of guys thinking fighting makes you tough or dominating other people makes you a real man. Your life won't be any less fulfilling if you just don't do that.

[Galloism]

You should have convinced him to rethink his life by telling him what he was doing was "toxic masculinity", and see how persuasive that can be in convincing people to open up and consider whether their actions are good or bad.

You think toxic masculinity is annoying? This same person has a grudge against a friend of mine for not being cool with him and keeps calling him white privileged.

Like damn bro at least you can't help having that. You can choose to be toxic or not.

Daily reminder that "white privilege" also has bad societal effects just like "toxic masculinity", although in that case the mechanism is by reducing sympathy based on class for the lower class whites by liberals, and seeing them as more responsible for their plight of being poor.

It also makes conservatives have more racial solidarity with the poor whites, and white racial solidarity has not been... historically preferable.

[Atheris]

1. Does toxic masculinity exist / to which extent does it exist?
2. How did it come to exist according to you?
3. How can it be solved, if it has to be solved?

1. Yes, and it's a problem.
2. The same way misogyny did.
3. It has to be solved. We solve it by destroying traditional gender roles. Stop making men the breadwinner, stop making women the housekeeper. Let a man raise a child, let a woman join the army. Let a man be a nurse, let a woman be a cop.

[Great Algerstonia]

Toxic Masculinity does not exist

[Madrinpoor]

Toxic Masculinity does not exist

...yeah, ok.