Toxic Masculinity Discussion Thread

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Our culture is having a masculinity crisis. It seems like we've replaced the heroic masculinity of the past with wimpy beta types on one side and screaming raging animals on the other, and we can't have men anymore with strength but calm, justice but fairness and power but restraint.

If heroic types even serve a purpose in modern society, let half of them be women I say.

I don't think men who choose to take cover when there's gunfire nearby deserve to be called "wimpy beta types". In fact, they deserve credit for making better life decisions than some "hero" who picks up a chair and goes out looking to get shot.

If a man or a woman have to do that, I say it should be whichever one loses Scissors Paper Rock

Taking cover when someone is shooting isn't beta. Beta is when somebody continually puts you and your family down and walks all over you and you don't fight back when you should.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Its not a problem from my standpoint, it is how men ought to be. Society began going wrong as soon as the established gender norms were gradually broken from the 1950s onward.

"Society was better when you could rape a woman and she got criticized for it." This is basically what you're saying.

[Stellar Colonies]

It is just bizarre how cultural misunderstandings of rape and flawed statistics (likely) feeding off each other in a vicious cycle have so drastically distorted the perception of what rape is from what the reality seems to be.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It is just bizarre how cultural misunderstandings of rape and flawed statistics (likely) feeding off each other in a vicious cycle have so drastically distorted the perception of what rape is from what the reality seems to be.

In what way?

[Stellar Colonies]

It is just bizarre how cultural misunderstandings of rape and flawed statistics (likely) feeding off each other in a vicious cycle have so drastically distorted the perception of what rape is from what the reality seems to be.

In what way?

It being vaguely (if not entirely) balanced instead of almost entirely one-way.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

In what way?

It being vaguely (if not entirely) balanced instead of almost entirely one-way.

You mean like people understanding that rape isn't always man on woman?

[Stellar Colonies]

It being vaguely (if not entirely) balanced instead of almost entirely one-way.

You mean like people understanding that rape isn't always man on woman?

yep

[Borderlands of Rojava]

You mean like people understanding that rape isn't always man on woman?

yep

Yeah we need to really figure out that rapist doesn't equal man. Women can rape and do.

[Esalia]

Because the use of "toxic masculinity" pretty much exclusively refers to men. I've never seen an instance of it get used against masculine women.

If the issue is with masculinity, it is exclusively with male masculinity, and therefore a connection between men and masculinity is pretty easy to make.

Let's leave your own personal experiences aside for a moment. Do you think it is impossible to use toxic masculinity when talking about masculine women? If the answer is yes, I will have no more objections. If the answer is no, I have to think the easy solution isn't the most accurate one.

Impossible? No.

But then this is purely hypothetical, and what the phrase can be used and the way the phrase is used aren't the same.

The phrase is exclusively used in regards to male masculinity (or at least used far more frequently in regards to men). That's the reality of its use, and I don't see the problem with pointing out that a phrase used exclusively in regards to men is connected to men in some way.

Are all men masculine? Is an effeminate male singer more or less a man then a macho cowboy? What level of masculinity is the baseline for a man?

I don't see the point in this questioning.

I'm not arguing that "all men are masculine", nor that being effeminate makes you less of a man, so I don't see the need for these questions.

[Zapato]

Let's leave your own personal experiences aside for a moment. Do you think it is impossible to use toxic masculinity when talking about masculine women? If the answer is yes, I will have no more objections. If the answer is no, I have to think the easy solution isn't the most accurate one.

Impossible? No.

But then this is purely hypothetical, and what the phrase can be used and the way the phrase is used aren't the same.

The phrase is exclusively used in regards to male masculinity (or at least used far more frequently in regards to men). That's the reality of its use, and I don't see the problem with pointing out that a phrase used exclusively in regards to men is connected to men in some way.

Are all men masculine? Is an effeminate male singer more or less a man then a macho cowboy? What level of masculinity is the baseline for a man?

I don't see the point in this questioning.

I'm not arguing that "all men are masculine", nor that being effeminate makes you less of a man, so I don't see the need for these questions.

So masculinity is not the measure of a man, not all men are masculine, and "toxic masculinity" can potentially be used to describe women. But, when we're talking about toxic masculinity we're saying something is wrong with men because there is a connection between men and masculinity, is that correctly understood?

[Esalia]

Impossible? No.

But then this is purely hypothetical, and what the phrase can be used and the way the phrase is used aren't the same.

The phrase is exclusively used in regards to male masculinity (or at least used far more frequently in regards to men). That's the reality of its use, and I don't see the problem with pointing out that a phrase used exclusively in regards to men is connected to men in some way.



I don't see the point in this questioning.

I'm not arguing that "all men are masculine", nor that being effeminate makes you less of a man, so I don't see the need for these questions.

So masculinity is not the measure of a man, not all men are masculine, "toxic masculinity" can potentially be used to describe women. But, when we're talking about toxic masculinity we're saying something is wrong with men because a connection between men and masculinity, is that correctly understood?

More or less, yes.

[SD_Film Artists]

Our culture is having a masculinity crisis. It seems like we've replaced the heroic masculinity of the past with wimpy beta types on one side and screaming raging animals on the other, and we can't have men anymore with strength but calm, justice but fairness and power but restraint.

If heroic types even serve a purpose in modern society, let half of them be women I say.

The important thing is that they are strong characters who are women rather than women who are strong. For example Ripply in Alien is a strong, independent character and she doesn't get any complaints from a "toxic fandom" because she's actually a well-written character who adds to the story; whereas the new Mulan is a total Mary Sue which at worst sends a bad message of entitlement and at best is just lazy writing with a bland narrative arc.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

If heroic types even serve a purpose in modern society, let half of them be women I say.

The important thing is that they are strong characters who are women rather than women who are strong. For example Ripply in Alien is a strong, independent character and she doesn't get any complaints from a "toxic fandom" because she's actually a well-written character who adds to the story; whereas the new Mulan is a total Mary Sue which at worst sends a bad message of entitlement and at best is just lazy writing with a bland narrative arc.

"Did I mention I'm actually a woman?"

"Nah Mulan. Did I mention I'm actually foreign?"

[Outer Solar System]

"Toxic masculinity" is just another way to attack Men and males in a society that no longer needs them. People can't just openly hate males for being male so they have to invent leftist word salads and mental gymnastics to justify their hate.

As with every other social issue, you cannot legislate away millions of years of genetic programming simply because you don't like it. Men are Men, and will ultimately always act like Men whether you like it or not.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

"Toxic masculinity" is just another way to attack Men and males in a society that no longer needs them. People can't just openly hate males for being male so they have to invent leftist word salads and mental gymnastics to justify their hate.

As with every other social issue, you cannot legislate away millions of years of genetic programming simply because you don't like it. Men are Men, and will ultimately always act like Men whether you like it or not.

"It isnt my fault I constantly go looking for violence. My genetics make me that way." Idk man that sounds pretty sexist.

[Outer Solar System]

"Toxic masculinity" is just another way to attack Men and males in a society that no longer needs them. People can't just openly hate males for being male so they have to invent leftist word salads and mental gymnastics to justify their hate.

As with every other social issue, you cannot legislate away millions of years of genetic programming simply because you don't like it. Men are Men, and will ultimately always act like Men whether you like it or not.

"It isnt my fault I constantly go looking for violence. My genetics make me that way." Idk man that sounds pretty sexist.

Yes, Men tend toward violence more due to genetics. What's your point?

[Ifreann]

Anyone else notice the way that people insist that "toxic masculinity" is a nonsensical term, leftist word salad, a meaningless jumble, when it's obviously not? It's just two words, it's not even one of those terms where the adjective comes second, like attorney general. There's no reason for a fluent English speaker to have any trouble understanding this combination of words. So clearly these people are all lying, right? It can't be that they have this very specific gap in their otherwise perfectly workable understanding of English, that they understand that the adjective describes the noun in every case except this one, that would be absurd. So it must be that they do understand the term "toxic masculinity" perfectly well, but are pretending that it's unintelligible. I don't see any other reasonable explanation.

What's up with that?

[Page]

Anyone else notice the way that people insist that "toxic masculinity" is a nonsensical term, leftist word salad, a meaningless jumble, when it's obviously not? It's just two words, it's not even one of those terms where the adjective comes second, like attorney general. There's no reason for a fluent English speaker to have any trouble understanding this combination of words. So clearly these people are all lying, right? It can't be that they have this very specific gap in their otherwise perfectly workable understanding of English, that they understand that the adjective describes the noun in every case except this one, that would be absurd. So it must be that they do understand the term "toxic masculinity" perfectly well, but are pretending that it's unintelligible. I don't see any other reasonable explanation.

What's up with that?

People have been propagandized into thinking that critical theory of any kind is an attack on them and only the concern affluent college professors.

[Lisander]

I lost all my faith in this thread when the user with Nagatoro (a female bully) on its avatar asked if "Toxic Feminility" exists. It's like a drug dealer asking: "Are drugs bad?"

[Galloism]

Anyone else notice the way that people insist that "toxic masculinity" is a nonsensical term, leftist word salad, a meaningless jumble, when it's obviously not? It's just two words, it's not even one of those terms where the adjective comes second, like attorney general. There's no reason for a fluent English speaker to have any trouble understanding this combination of words. So clearly these people are all lying, right? It can't be that they have this very specific gap in their otherwise perfectly workable understanding of English, that they understand that the adjective describes the noun in every case except this one, that would be absurd. So it must be that they do understand the term "toxic masculinity" perfectly well, but are pretending that it's unintelligible. I don't see any other reasonable explanation.

What's up with that?

People have been propagandized into thinking that critical theory of any kind is an attack on them and only the concern affluent college professors.

Again, there's a reason why basically no one uses "toxic femininity" or "toxic black culture" or "toxic jewishness" or any of those things.

Everyone knows it's offensive, and again, the public broadly agrees it is.

[Grenartia]

I really don't understand why so many men who insist they aren't toxically masculine get offended by the very existence of the term "toxic masculinity". Like, chill, dude, it is possible to be non-toxic and masculine, and getting offended by the existence of the term indicates maybe you aren't so non-toxic after all. But if that is the case, you can stop being toxic, and it'll cease applying to you, and you can stop being offended by it.

[Ifreann]

Anyone else notice the way that people insist that "toxic masculinity" is a nonsensical term, leftist word salad, a meaningless jumble, when it's obviously not? It's just two words, it's not even one of those terms where the adjective comes second, like attorney general. There's no reason for a fluent English speaker to have any trouble understanding this combination of words. So clearly these people are all lying, right? It can't be that they have this very specific gap in their otherwise perfectly workable understanding of English, that they understand that the adjective describes the noun in every case except this one, that would be absurd. So it must be that they do understand the term "toxic masculinity" perfectly well, but are pretending that it's unintelligible. I don't see any other reasonable explanation.

What's up with that?

People have been propagandized into thinking that critical theory of any kind is an attack on them and only the concern affluent college professors.

I could see it being that people are starting from a belief that the left always makes up nonsense terminology and from there concluding that this term must be nonsense, never mind that it's actually perfectly simple to understand the term.

[Auzkhia]

"Toxic masculinity" is just another way to attack Men and males in a society that no longer needs them. People can't just openly hate males for being male so they have to invent leftist word salads and mental gymnastics to justify their hate.

As with every other social issue, you cannot legislate away millions of years of genetic programming simply because you don't like it. Men are Men, and will ultimately always act like Men whether you like it or not.

I wonder if anyone knows that men as part of a men's movement coined the term toxic masculinity.

And also "boys will be boys" is not the effective defense you think it is.

I really don't understand why so many men who insist they aren't toxically masculine get offended by the very existence of the term "toxic masculinity". Like, chill, dude, it is possible to be non-toxic and masculine, and getting offended by the existence of the term indicates maybe you aren't so non-toxic after all. But if that is the case, you can stop being toxic, and it'll cease applying to you, and you can stop being offended by it.

People don't wanna be part of the problem even though they are. It's an ego thing.

[Galloism]

I really don't understand why so many men who insist they aren't toxically masculine get offended by the very existence of the term "toxic masculinity". Like, chill, dude, it is possible to be non-toxic and masculine, and getting offended by the existence of the term indicates maybe you aren't so non-toxic after all. But if that is the case, you can stop being toxic, and it'll cease applying to you, and you can stop being offended by it.

No, it's a hate term. Here's the thing, when you marginalize a group of people based on their sex or gender, and they tell you they hate it and view it as insulting - especially when supermajorities view it as hateful and insulting - you are using hate terms.

It's not ok to use hate terms.

[Galloism]

"Toxic masculinity" is just another way to attack Men and males in a society that no longer needs them. People can't just openly hate males for being male so they have to invent leftist word salads and mental gymnastics to justify their hate.

As with every other social issue, you cannot legislate away millions of years of genetic programming simply because you don't like it. Men are Men, and will ultimately always act like Men whether you like it or not.

I wonder if anyone knows that men as part of a men's movement coined the term toxic masculinity.

Yep, we talked about its sexist origins and usage in an attempt to pin men into gender roles harmful to them back on page 3:

To be honest, I don't think that that's why the term was chosen. It seems more like it was chosen without proper thought given to it as opposed to being a conscious decision. The term makes sense if work backwards from the definition to the term itself. "Masculinity" referring to traits traditionally thought to be manly, and "toxic" to indicate that these traits have become harmfully internalized. The problem is that the reverse wasn't really considered, and that the connotations of the term weren't really thought of without the context of the definition (just the phrase "toxic masculinity" on it's own is extremely vague and implies a direct harm towards women, as opposed to the mindset the leads to such behaviors).

That being said, that's my own personal theory, I'm interested to see what other insight people can provide in that regard.

That’s really not the origin of the term. The term comes from the mythopoetic mens movement, who thought that men were suffering “toxic masculinity” by having insufficient male role models and that the “men’s voice” had been muted by feminism (the irony of feminists then adopting the term is not lost on me).

And they proposed the solution was “deep masculinity”, which involved taking up masculine rituals and develop a “warrior culture”.

Most of which is bullshit and hogwash. We just need to stop oppressing men and let them be who we want them to be.