UK Politics Thread IX: Try turning the UK off and on again.

[The Archregimancy]

Wales is just a semi-autonomous region of England anyway.

I assume you're joking.

But if you're not joking - if that was completely unironic - you might need to take a moment for pause for thought about how the attitudes embedded in the assumptions of the only UK-wide party to overtly proclaim itself unionist in its official name have proven to be so singularly counterproductive as regards the preservation of that union since the 1880s.

And even if you were joking, it's the type of joke that really doesn't help.

Though between the Scottish nationalists running Holyrood, the English nationalists running Westminster, and the British and Irish nationalists attempting to run Stormont between them, at least Cardiff Bay is the only major UK legislature not currently run by a nationalist party.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Scotland's Andy Murray when he loses

Britain's Andy Murray when he wins

Or.... whatever that joke is about him.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Wales is just a semi-autonomous region of England anyway.

I assume you're joking.

But if you're not joking - if that was completely unironic - you might need to take a moment for pause for thought about how the attitudes embedded in the assumptions of the only UK-wide party to overtly proclaim itself unionist in its official name have proven to be so singularly counterproductive as regards the preservation of that union since the 1880s.

And even if you were joking, it's the type of joke that really doesn't help.

Though between the Scottish nationalists running Holyrood, the English nationalists running Westminster, and the British and Irish nationalists attempting to run Stormont between them, at least Cardiff Bay is the only major UK legislature not currently run by a nationalist party.

Of course the welsh have to ruin the fun and not elect a nationalist party.

[Ifreann]

Scotland's Andy Murray when he loses

Britain's Andy Murray when he wins

Or.... whatever that joke is about him.

Britain's Shane Lowry, from Offalyshire.

[The Nihilistic view]

Wales is just a semi-autonomous region of England anyway.

I assume you're joking.

But if you're not joking - if that was completely unironic - you might need to take a moment for pause for thought about how the attitudes embedded in the assumptions of the only UK-wide party to overtly proclaim itself unionist in its official name have proven to be so singularly counterproductive as regards the preservation of that union since the 1880s.

And even if you were joking, it's the type of joke that really doesn't help.

Though between the Scottish nationalists running Holyrood, the English nationalists running Westminster, and the British and Irish nationalists attempting to run Stormont between them, at least Cardiff Bay is the only major UK legislature not currently run by a nationalist party.

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

[The Archregimancy]

I assume you're joking.

But if you're not joking - if that was completely unironic - you might need to take a moment for pause for thought about how the attitudes embedded in the assumptions of the only UK-wide party to overtly proclaim itself unionist in its official name have proven to be so singularly counterproductive as regards the preservation of that union since the 1880s.

And even if you were joking, it's the type of joke that really doesn't help.

Though between the Scottish nationalists running Holyrood, the English nationalists running Westminster, and the British and Irish nationalists attempting to run Stormont between them, at least Cardiff Bay is the only major UK legislature not currently run by a nationalist party.

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

I think you perhaps missed the point.

On the narrow historical issue - which I would like to think you would probably concede I'm going to be more aware of than most posting in this thread - the acts retrospectively considered as the Welsh Acts of Union, more accurately the Laws in Wales Acts of 1535 and 1542, 'united and annexed [Wales] to and with [Henry VIII's] Realm of England'. They abolished the residual powers of the Marcher Lordships, granted all of Wales representation at Westminster, extended English law to all of Wales, and ended the use of Welsh in the legal system (for the next few centuries, anyway). However, it's a misconception that they completely abolished separate Welsh institutions; see, inter alia, the Court of Great Sessions and the Council of Wales & the Marches.

But, even leaving aside the fact that our unwritten constitution evolves over time (something you're fond of reminding us), and that the situation as established in the first half of the 16th century no longer fully applies, the basic point was that having supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party dismiss Wales as 'just a semi-autonomous region of England' is the type of staggeringly tone-deaf remark that only serves to feed nationalism.

I imagine that you think that's unfair, and that you would probably argue that you were only making a technical point that can be defended on the basis of being a simple statement of historical fact. Perhaps. But if those are the points you would choose to make in this case, it only helps to demonstrate why the English nationalists running the current Westminster government - and their supporters - are so ill-suited to keeping together a union that they ostensibly claim to treasure. And if you can't see why that's the case, then there's likely nothing I can do to help.

[The Nihilistic view]

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

I think you perhaps missed the point.

On the narrow historical issue - which I would like to think you would probably concede I'm going to be more aware of than most posting in this thread - the acts retrospectively considered as the Welsh Acts of Union, more accurately the Laws in Wales Acts of 1535 and 1542, 'united and annexed [Wales] to and with [Henry VIII's] Realm of England'. They abolished the residual powers of the Marcher Lordships, granted all of Wales representation at Westminster, extended English law to all of Wales, and ended the use of Welsh in the legal system (for the next few centuries, anyway). However, it's a misconception that they completely abolished separate Welsh institutions; see, inter alia, the Court of Great Sessions and the Council of Wales & the Marches.

But, even leaving aside the fact that our unwritten constitution evolves over time (something you're fond of reminding us), and that the situation as established in the first half of the 16th century no longer fully applies, the basic point was that having supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party dismiss Wales as 'just a semi-autonomous region of England' is the type of staggeringly tone-deaf remark that only serves to feed nationalism.

I imagine that you think that's unfair, and that you would probably argue that you were only making a technical point that can be defended on the basis of being a simple statement of historical fact. Perhaps. But if those are the points you would choose to make in this case, it only helps to demonstrate why the English nationalists running the current Westminster government - and their supporters - are so ill-suited to keeping together a union that they ostensibly claim to treasure. And if you can't see why that's the case, then there's likely nothing I can do to help.

Unfair, never. I'm being narrowly technical, you're being pedantic. That's how the world should be Arch.

[Dakini]

I assume you're joking.

But if you're not joking - if that was completely unironic - you might need to take a moment for pause for thought about how the attitudes embedded in the assumptions of the only UK-wide party to overtly proclaim itself unionist in its official name have proven to be so singularly counterproductive as regards the preservation of that union since the 1880s.

And even if you were joking, it's the type of joke that really doesn't help.

Though between the Scottish nationalists running Holyrood, the English nationalists running Westminster, and the British and Irish nationalists attempting to run Stormont between them, at least Cardiff Bay is the only major UK legislature not currently run by a nationalist party.

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

[Ifreann]

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

You don't have to endear people to the union if you just never let them leave.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Government acted unlawfully in handing £560,000 covid contract to mates of Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57413115

[Dakini]

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

You don't have to endear people to the union if you just never let them leave.

Yeah, I suppose you can just treat the other home countries like glorified colonies, telling them they're too poor, too small and too stupid to make it on their own if you refuse to let them leave. You just end up with a lot of resentment.

[Ifreann]

Government acted unlawfully in handing £560,000 covid contract to mates of Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57413115

Sure, maybe the Tories are corrupt criminals, but what about the big yacht for the Queen?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Government acted unlawfully in handing £560,000 covid contract to mates of Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57413115

Shocking.

[The Archregimancy]

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

You don't have to endear people to the union if you just never let them leave.

Well, we let you leave; or let 81.25% of your counties leave, anyway.

Though only after the Conservative Party - backed by Liberal Unionists - spent the best part of 30 years doing their best to wreck Gladstone's attempts to negotiate a home rule compromise that might, just possibly, have kept Ireland in the United Kingdom; or at least might have offered a better opportunity to negotiate a route to independence that wouldn't have involved civil war and partition. It's incredibly depressing to see the same historic themes recur, even if the specific context is different.

It's a bit like what Talleyrand allegedly said about the Bourbons learning nothing and forgetting nothing.

That said, notwithstanding radical SNP MSP attempts to argue that Scotland should just declare independence without a referendum, because the First Dáil didn't bother with a referendum in 1919 (no, but then it did lead to a fairly nasty civil war), or occasional English attempts to argue that any parts of Scotland that don't vote for independence in a second referendum should be allowed to stay in the UK (and how did that end up working out for Northern Ireland?), I think we should manage to avoid the worst mistakes of 1886-1921 this time around; if (stressing the conditional) any part of the current UK were to assert its right to leave.

You'd like to think so, anyway.

[The Nihilistic view]

That's not the reason it's not a joke. What was it 1530ish Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England, that's more what was being pointed out rather than today's nationalist shitshow.

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

Kicking arse? 6 doses ahead of the rest of the UK average. That's about a week at current pace? You talk like it's six weeks ahead.

[Dakini]

The NHS is devolved and Wales is kicking ass at getting the Welsh people vaccinated. Trying to take credit for that and act like this is just because Wales is basically just England whenever it does something well (but of course, they're Welsh when things don't go well) doesn't endear anyone.

This England is the best, everyone else is terrible shit doesn't endear anyone to the union.

Kicking arse? 6 doses ahead of the rest of the UK average. That's about a week at current pace? You talk like it's six weeks ahead.

See, you go between taking credit for Wales doing well and diminishing its achievements. Wales can't be doing well unless it's basically England and if it's not basically England then it's not doing that well. You can't just be happy for Wales doing well. Also, the current rate is better than the UK average, which suggests it will continue to pull ahead.

[The Nihilistic view]

Kicking arse? 6 doses ahead of the rest of the UK average. That's about a week at current pace? You talk like it's six weeks ahead.

See, you go between taking credit for Wales doing well and diminishing its achievements. Wales can't be doing well unless it's basically England and if it's not basically England then it's not doing that well. You can't just be happy for Wales doing well. Also, the current rate is better than the UK average, which suggests it will continue to pull ahead.

I'm not taking any credit on one country. I'm saying the UK is doing well.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Everyone arguing whether Wales is England or not and all I'm thinking is "People from Cardiff sound English. I don't think they identify as English."

[Salandriagado]

Is the UK really that far behind in vaccinations? Here in the US we opened vaccinations for that group months ago

Scotland opened up vaccinations to over 18s a few weeks ago. I don't know why England just opened them up to 25+ now.

We're not behind: we're prioritising. The US got through the highest-risk categories then went "fuck it, open it up for everybody". We kept on working our way down in 2-5 year jumps all the way through the age range. We're aiming for maximal death rate reduction in a context where we have extremely high uptake and relatively limited (in the short term) capacity and very low background transmission, whereas the US is aiming for a mixture of death rate and transmission reduction in a context with lower uptake, higher capacity, and higher background transmission.

No, England seems behind. Scotland prioritised the highest risk people, even going so far as to ensure everyone in a care home was taken care of before moving onto the general population (while people were going on about how it was lagging behind England) and it managed to open up vaccinations to 18+ weeks ago (iirc, it is ahead of England on total vaccinations per capita as well).

Hell, I'm in the EU (which is apparently hopelessly behind) and I got vaccinated before a lot of my friends my age in the UK. Some of my friends in Canada have had two doses while people my age in the UK were barely being offered the vaccine.

How things "seem" to you has no relevance to reality. The fact is that the UK is not behind in vaccine numbers: we've just prioritised. Scotland is, numbers wise, a rounding error, so their limited prioritisation compared to England Is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

[The Blaatschapen]

You don't have to endear people to the union if you just never let them leave.

Well, we let you leave; or let 81.25% of your counties leave, anyway.

Though only after the Conservative Party - backed by Liberal Unionists - spent the best part of 30 years doing their best to wreck Gladstone's attempts to negotiate a home rule compromise that might, just possibly, have kept Ireland in the United Kingdom; or at least might have offered a better opportunity to negotiate a route to independence that wouldn't have involved civil war and partition. It's incredibly depressing to see the same historic themes recur, even if the specific context is different.

It's a bit like what Talleyrand allegedly said about the Bourbons learning nothing and forgetting nothing.

That said, notwithstanding radical SNP MSP attempts to argue that Scotland should just declare independence without a referendum, because the First Dáil didn't bother with a referendum in 1919 (no, but then it did lead to a fairly nasty civil war), or occasional English attempts to argue that any parts of Scotland that don't vote for independence in a second referendum should be allowed to stay in the UK (and how did that end up working out for Northern Ireland?), I think we should manage to avoid the worst mistakes of 1886-1921 this time around; if (stressing the conditional) any part of the current UK were to assert its right to leave.

You'd like to think so, anyway.

(emphasis mine)

Wait, parts of the UK have the right to leave? I mean, I know about NI, the right to leave is written inside the Good Friday Agreement. But can Wales leave? Like, is there currently a legal document that says under which circumstances it can leave?

[Dakini]

How things "seem" to you has no relevance to reality. The fact is that the UK is not behind in vaccine numbers: we've just prioritised. Scotland is, numbers wise, a rounding error, so their limited prioritisation compared to England Is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

Amazing. So Scotland isn't doing better, it's just been ahead of England for the last couple of days and is now more than a day ahead, seeming to pull further ahead still it's because it's a "rounding error". When they opened vaccination to everyone 18+ a few weeks ago and England just opened vaccines to 25+ this week, I'm sure this is also a mistake because Scotland surely can't do anything right.

Again, Scotland also prioritised vulnerable groups and back in January, the news was all about how Scotland was so slow rolling out the vaccine while the Scottish government focused on vaccinating people in care homes which is slower work than vaccinating people who aren't in care homes. The result is that Scotland finished vaccinating people in care homes and could move on to vaccinating the general community, which goes much faster.

[The Nihilistic view]

Is it really that far gone that the idea of a unionist that feels just British and nothing else is an alien concept even here. I've never said anything else but people keep trying to put me in the wrong pigeonhole as if they struggle to comprehend that somebody might not subscribe to a minor national identity alongside or instead of a british one.

[Dakini]

Is it really that far gone that the idea of a unionist that feels just British and nothing else is an alien concept even here. I've never said anything else but people keep trying to put me in the wrong pigeonhole as if they struggle to comprehend that somebody might not subscribe to a minor national identity alongside or instead of a british one.

Considering that you didn't say the Welsh were just British, but rather a subset of England, it seems like you have a loyalty to a particular home country instead of the union as a whole.

[Salandriagado]

How things "seem" to you has no relevance to reality. The fact is that the UK is not behind in vaccine numbers: we've just prioritised. Scotland is, numbers wise, a rounding error, so their limited prioritisation compared to England Is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

Amazing. So Scotland isn't doing better, it's just been ahead of England for the last couple of days and is now more than a day ahead, seeming to pull further ahead still it's because it's a "rounding error". When they opened vaccination to everyone 18+ a few weeks ago and England just opened vaccines to 25+ this week, I'm sure this is also a mistake because Scotland surely can't do anything right.

Again, Scotland also prioritised vulnerable groups and back in January, the news was all about how Scotland was so slow rolling out the vaccine while the Scottish government focused on vaccinating people in care homes which is slower work than vaccinating people who aren't in care homes. The result is that Scotland finished vaccinating people in care homes and could move on to vaccinating the general community, which goes much faster.

I have no fucking clue what you're on about, but it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the content of my post.

[The Nihilistic view]

Well, we let you leave; or let 81.25% of your counties leave, anyway.

Though only after the Conservative Party - backed by Liberal Unionists - spent the best part of 30 years doing their best to wreck Gladstone's attempts to negotiate a home rule compromise that might, just possibly, have kept Ireland in the United Kingdom; or at least might have offered a better opportunity to negotiate a route to independence that wouldn't have involved civil war and partition. It's incredibly depressing to see the same historic themes recur, even if the specific context is different.

It's a bit like what Talleyrand allegedly said about the Bourbons learning nothing and forgetting nothing.

That said, notwithstanding radical SNP MSP attempts to argue that Scotland should just declare independence without a referendum, because the First Dáil didn't bother with a referendum in 1919 (no, but then it did lead to a fairly nasty civil war), or occasional English attempts to argue that any parts of Scotland that don't vote for independence in a second referendum should be allowed to stay in the UK (and how did that end up working out for Northern Ireland?), I think we should manage to avoid the worst mistakes of 1886-1921 this time around; if (stressing the conditional) any part of the current UK were to assert its right to leave.

You'd like to think so, anyway.

(emphasis mine)

Wait, parts of the UK have the right to leave? I mean, I know about NI, the right to leave is written inside the Good Friday Agreement. But can Wales leave? Like, is there currently a legal document that says under which circumstances it can leave?

Just modernday democratic niceties. Nobody is going to stop a referendum if there is sustain support to have one provided it's not a case of neverendums until the nationalists win. That's the whole problem with Scotland. They should just pencil in 2034 as the date.