UK Politics Thread IX: Try turning the UK off and on again.

[Straicean]

It was asking the main reason. I think a better way for Labour to gauge why they lost, and the Conservatives why they won, would be to present this list and ask voters to tick off all of the reasons why they chose to vote the way they did.

I know, as i mentioned above i thought it would tie into what Ostro was talking about earlier.

Ah, my bad. I got you.

[The Nihilistic view]

The meme youtuber beat Laurence Fox. Get fucked.

How is it that close. I swear the last poll I saw had Khan about 15% ahead.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The meme youtuber beat Laurence Fox. Get fucked.

How is it that close. I swear the last poll I saw had Khan about 15% ahead.

I know right, its a lot closer than i thought it would be too. Which is surprising as Bailey seemed like an absolute idiot and i heard he had even been abandoned by the rest of the party over his performance.

edit: Oh its even closer than last i checked.

[Straicean]

The meme youtuber beat Laurence Fox. Get fucked.

How is it that close. I swear the last poll I saw had Khan about 15% ahead.

Vote isn't over yet. There are four constituencies that voted Khan in 2016 still to release numbers. Much closer than expected but I am thinking 55-45 for Khan is a fair guess at this point. Happy to see Ealing voted Bailey, even though they re-elected their Labour AM.

[The Nihilistic view]

How is it that close. I swear the last poll I saw had Khan about 15% ahead.

I know right, its a lot closer than i thought it would be too. Which is surprising as Bailey seemed like an absolute idiot and i heard he had even been abandoned by the rest of the part over his performance.

edit: Oh its even closer than last i checked.

No I've never thought much of him with the brief things I've watched.

If it ends up that close Central office will be kicking themselves about not putting in more resources lol.

[Kowani]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

[The Nihilistic view]

Count binface has an outside chance of 6th though.

Penny for the thoughts of all the serious candidates he's currently ahead of.

[Dakini]

My former constituency (Edinburgh Southern) stayed Labour (it looks like the Tory voters either voted strategically for the unionist candidate most likely to win or didn't like the Tories this time). Ruth Davidson's former constituency was picked up by the SNP though.

[Labbos]

Corbyn admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

Did you mean Starmer rather then Corbyn?

[The Nihilistic view]

Corbyn admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

Did you mean Starmer rather then Corbyn?

Freudian slip.

[Kowani]

Corbyn admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

Did you mean Starmer rather then Corbyn?

i did, yes
editing now

[San Lumen]

Labor holds Vale of Glamorgan.

[Vassenor]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

And what is he proposing to do about it?

[Fartsniffage]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

And what is he proposing to do about it?

He's going to call for a public inquiry.

[Kowani]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

And what is he proposing to do about it?

The Labour leader, who called the local election results “bitterly disappointing”, is considering moving his party’s headquarters out of London to reflect Labour’s determination to show that it represents the whole country, party sources told the Guardian.

He is also expected to reshuffle his top team and launch an across-the-board review of the party’s policies.

[Souseiseki]

The takeaway is that the british and american left are abnormal and abberant in disliking their countries to the extent they do, because everyone else doesn't do that. The french left, the german left, the centrists of all countries, and the right wing of all countries.

maybe the US and UK are just abnormally bad.

like as a leftist that likes germany better than the UK anyway because half of my big personal issues with the UK either don't exist there are or are less severe that would be my first guess. i used to be proud of this country until it screwed me, so idk, maybe if it stopped screwing people more people would be proud of it?

like that's seriously one of the big issues that the left faces. we're often criticized for shitting on britain or saying that the british people are wrong, but the inherent assumption behind these statements is that britain is actually great and the british public are actually cool dudes and the leftists are just being self-hating ninnies. but we can actually pull up the statistics showing that the US and UK actually are underperforming in several metrics and that the british public are outright "you think the numbers are X, your position is based on the numbers being X, the numbers are actually Y, therefore you are basically wrong and your position is incoherent as a result because it's based on something that isn't true" levels of wrong on half of the big issues of the day that we're supposed to appeal to them on. there's nothing in the leftist or rightist playbook that actually covers a scenario when the country is actually shit and the voters are actually wrong. once you discount "lie to the voters" or "do something you know is dumb and will harm the country but the public want it so just shove their hand on the stove" which are fundamentally immoral positions and therefore untenable to people that want to act morally.

the only real way out of it is probably a performative nationalism SNP style. focus on making the country better and rebuilding national identity. but the problem with that again is that your first need to acknowledge that the country is shit. you don't get the rise of the SNP or brexit in a country that isn't shit. people know things are bad, which is why they treated into radical change. the SNP at least have the advantage where they're 100% free to say the UK is shit. and the self-hating leftist thing seems to happen less here. indeed many of the self-hating english people seem to love scotland. so that brings up the question again - is that really a question of them being self-hating leftists, or is that really a case of england just being shitter than scotland (from their perspective anyway - i'm sure there's many people that think england is great despite the fact that its public services are failing and it is politically imploding because it keeps re-electing the same band of corrupt crooks that ruined it in the first place). what do you even do in such a scenario?

i need to go to bed so i can't fully finish or polish this post, but i'm posting it anyway. in summary, perhaps labour could look into some kind of mixture of socialism and nationalism??? that might help.

[Philjia]

The meme youtuber beat Laurence Fox. Get fucked.

How is it that close. I swear the last poll I saw had Khan about 15% ahead.

And even the Tories thought Bailey was shit.

[Philjia]

The takeaway is that the british and american left are abnormal and abberant in disliking their countries to the extent they do, because everyone else doesn't do that. The french left, the german left, the centrists of all countries, and the right wing of all countries.

maybe the US and UK are just abnormally bad.

like as a leftist that likes germany better than the UK anyway because half of my big personal issues with the UK either don't exist there are or are less severe that would be my first guess. i used to be proud of this country until it screwed me, so idk, maybe if it stopped screwing people more people would be proud of it?

like that's seriously one of the big issues that the left faces. we're often criticized for shitting on britain or saying that the british people are wrong, but the inherent assumption behind these statements is that britain is actually great and the british public are actually cool dudes and the leftists are just being self-hating ninnies. but we can actually pull up the statistics showing that the US and UK actually are underperforming in several metrics and that the british public are outright "you think the numbers are X, your position is based on the numbers being X, the numbers are actually Y, therefore you are basically wrong and your position is incoherent as a result because it's based on something that isn't true" levels of wrong on half of the big issues of the day that we're supposed to appeal to them on. there's nothing in the leftist or rightist playbook that actually covers a scenario when the country is actually shit and the voters are actually wrong. once you discount "lie to the voters" or "do something you know is dumb and will harm the country but the public want it so just shove their hand on the stove" which are fundamentally immoral positions and therefore untenable to people that want to act morally.

the only real way out of it is probably a performative nationalism SNP style. focus on making the country better and rebuilding national identity. but the problem with that again is that your first need to acknowledge that the country is shit. you don't get the rise of the SNP or brexit in a country that isn't shit. people know things are bad, which is why they treated into radical change. the SNP at least have the advantage where they're 100% free to say the UK is shit. and the self-hating leftist thing seems to happen less here. indeed many of the self-hating english people seem to love scotland. so that brings up the question again - is that really a question of them being self-hating leftists, or is that really a case of england just being shitter than scotland (from their perspective anyway - i'm sure there's many people that think england is great despite the fact that its public services are failing and it is politically imploding because it keeps re-electing the same band of corrupt crooks that ruined it in the first place). what do you even do in such a scenario?

i need to go to bed so i can't fully finish or polish this post, but i'm posting it anyway. in summary, perhaps labour could look into some kind of mixture of socialism and nationalism??? that might help.

Britain has rarely given me the opportunity to be proud of it. How can I be proud of a country that has gleefully supported over a decade of negligent, contemptuous Tory government? What pride is there to take in a nation unable to observe its imperial legacy without rose tinted spectacles? I go beyond my village into the rest of west Gateshead and see villages left to decay. I walk the streets of Sheffield and see unacceptable deprivation. I go on Twitter and find out people are once again incensed that trans people want to live. Then I turn on the news and watch kids in Belfast throwing petrol bombs. Then the next story comes on and it's about how the government dont care about any of this but do care about giving fat contracts to their friends and family. This is my home. I cannot fathom living anywhere else. England, Tyneside, is where I belong. It is a part of me and I am a part of it. I wish it to be better and will fight to make it so. I love it like a mother loves her son who's serving time for glassing a guy outside a pub. But love is not pride. Not yet.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

Labour hasn't had their trust since Blair. Where's he been?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

maybe the US and UK are just abnormally bad.

like as a leftist that likes germany better than the UK anyway because half of my big personal issues with the UK either don't exist there are or are less severe that would be my first guess. i used to be proud of this country until it screwed me, so idk, maybe if it stopped screwing people more people would be proud of it?

like that's seriously one of the big issues that the left faces. we're often criticized for shitting on britain or saying that the british people are wrong, but the inherent assumption behind these statements is that britain is actually great and the british public are actually cool dudes and the leftists are just being self-hating ninnies. but we can actually pull up the statistics showing that the US and UK actually are underperforming in several metrics and that the british public are outright "you think the numbers are X, your position is based on the numbers being X, the numbers are actually Y, therefore you are basically wrong and your position is incoherent as a result because it's based on something that isn't true" levels of wrong on half of the big issues of the day that we're supposed to appeal to them on. there's nothing in the leftist or rightist playbook that actually covers a scenario when the country is actually shit and the voters are actually wrong. once you discount "lie to the voters" or "do something you know is dumb and will harm the country but the public want it so just shove their hand on the stove" which are fundamentally immoral positions and therefore untenable to people that want to act morally.

the only real way out of it is probably a performative nationalism SNP style. focus on making the country better and rebuilding national identity. but the problem with that again is that your first need to acknowledge that the country is shit. you don't get the rise of the SNP or brexit in a country that isn't shit. people know things are bad, which is why they treated into radical change. the SNP at least have the advantage where they're 100% free to say the UK is shit. and the self-hating leftist thing seems to happen less here. indeed many of the self-hating english people seem to love scotland. so that brings up the question again - is that really a question of them being self-hating leftists, or is that really a case of england just being shitter than scotland (from their perspective anyway - i'm sure there's many people that think england is great despite the fact that its public services are failing and it is politically imploding because it keeps re-electing the same band of corrupt crooks that ruined it in the first place). what do you even do in such a scenario?

i need to go to bed so i can't fully finish or polish this post, but i'm posting it anyway. in summary, perhaps labour could look into some kind of mixture of socialism and nationalism??? that might help.

Britain has rarely given me the opportunity to be proud of it. How can I be proud of a country that has gleefully supported over a decade of negligent, contemptuous Tory government? What pride is there to take in a nation unable to observe its imperial legacy without rose tinted spectacles? I go beyond my village into the rest of west Gateshead and see villages left to decay. I walk the streets of Sheffield and see unacceptable deprivation. I go on Twitter and find out people are once again incensed that trans people want to live. Then I turn on the news and watch kids in Belfast throwing petrol bombs. Then the next story comes on and it's about how the government dont care about any of this but do care about giving fat contracts to their friends and family. This is my home. I cannot fathom living anywhere else. England, Tyneside, is where I belong. It is a part of me and I am a part of it. I wish it to be better and will fight to make it so. I love it like a mother loves her son who's serving time for glassing a guy outside a pub. But love is not pride. Not yet.

"Nothing Great about Britain."

-Slowthai speaking the truth for many young citizens of the UK.

[The Nihilistic view]

The takeaway is that the british and american left are abnormal and abberant in disliking their countries to the extent they do, because everyone else doesn't do that. The french left, the german left, the centrists of all countries, and the right wing of all countries.

maybe the US and UK are just abnormally bad.

like as a leftist that likes germany better than the UK anyway because half of my big personal issues with the UK either don't exist there are or are less severe that would be my first guess. i used to be proud of this country until it screwed me, so idk, maybe if it stopped screwing people more people would be proud of it?

like that's seriously one of the big issues that the left faces. we're often criticized for shitting on britain or saying that the british people are wrong, but the inherent assumption behind these statements is that britain is actually great and the british public are actually cool dudes and the leftists are just being self-hating ninnies. but we can actually pull up the statistics showing that the US and UK actually are underperforming in several metrics and that the british public are outright "you think the numbers are X, your position is based on the numbers being X, the numbers are actually Y, therefore you are basically wrong and your position is incoherent as a result because it's based on something that isn't true" levels of wrong on half of the big issues of the day that we're supposed to appeal to them on. there's nothing in the leftist or rightist playbook that actually covers a scenario when the country is actually shit and the voters are actually wrong. once you discount "lie to the voters" or "do something you know is dumb and will harm the country but the public want it so just shove their hand on the stove" which are fundamentally immoral positions and therefore untenable to people that want to act morally.

the only real way out of it is probably a performative nationalism SNP style. focus on making the country better and rebuilding national identity. but the problem with that again is that your first need to acknowledge that the country is shit. you don't get the rise of the SNP or brexit in a country that isn't shit. people know things are bad, which is why they treated into radical change. the SNP at least have the advantage where they're 100% free to say the UK is shit. and the self-hating leftist thing seems to happen less here. indeed many of the self-hating english people seem to love scotland. so that brings up the question again - is that really a question of them being self-hating leftists, or is that really a case of england just being shitter than scotland (from their perspective anyway - i'm sure there's many people that think england is great despite the fact that its public services are failing and it is politically imploding because it keeps re-electing the same band of corrupt crooks that ruined it in the first place). what do you even do in such a scenario?

i need to go to bed so i can't fully finish or polish this post, but i'm posting it anyway. in summary, perhaps labour could look into some kind of mixture of socialism and nationalism??? that might help.

Only problem with that is health outcomes are worse in Scotland, education outcomes are worse in Scotland and the housing situation is broadly worse in Scotland. If it genuinely was better in Scotland all these people would have a point but I think far too many people believe this myth that everything is amazing in Scotland I want to move there.

Scotland isn't objectively better, some things are better and some things are worse. Problem is I would have thought health, education and housing are kind of fairly important things to the sort of people that think Scotland is great because they hate the Tories. Not only are they generally doing worse at these things they are managing to do worse when they have about 20% more money to spend per head.

So in the end it's really just the fact that the SNP aren't the Tories, nothing more than that. In this both groups at each end of the spectrum are actually as delusional as each other.

There is something in the playbook though, you got to do what Thatcher did. You need to invent something new to this country and fit it to what people in England are comfortable with.

[Celritannia]

Well done to the Greens picking up 40 new councillors so far.

Awesome wish I could see it on video. The BBC video live stream still wont work for me.

I'm surprised you're saying that. The Greens are more left-wing than Labour, or Bernie Sander. They do border socialism.

[Ifreann]

*NEW: @JLPartnersPolls on why people voted the way they did, for @Channel4News*

The top reason given for not voting Labour on Thursday was Keir Starmer’s leadership. This was followed by not agreeing with Labour’s policies, or worrying that they did not have any at all.

GRIM.

(Image)

(Image)

Grimb.

---

i'm having a huge sous over people not voting labour because of keir's leadership

remember when we were told corbyn needed to go to make room for The Electables

lmao

one job

Clearly no one told the voters about how electable Starmer is.

---

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

And what is he proposing to do about it?

Waffle about change.

[Celritannia]

Starmer admits that "Labour has lost the trust of the working people"

I admit I did have hope for Keir, I truly did. But the working-class people truly believed in Corbyn, and Keir is not getting the same attention as Corbyn did.

[The Nihilistic view]

To be fair Sous Labour have done it before after the war. That's the kind of new ideas that need to be thought up. But today it's probanly got to be a way that applies certain key values to the modern indervidualist mindset and works with that rather than fighting against it all the time.