UK Politics Thread IX: Try turning the UK off and on again.

[Hurdergaryp]

(Image)

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK (myself included). My town has never been more Eastern European (and brown) than it is right now. Although a good chunk of EU citizens have left, I'm guessing Covid has a lot to do with this as well.

The fruit processing factory where my mum works is also lacking workers, I'm told.

But yeah, sucks to suck, nationalists.

...Like, Brexit didn't even make sense even if you were a nationalists afraid of browner people than yourself. Why would you want to disconnect yourself from the whitest trade block in the world? And then become closer with and ease travel for citizens of countries like Albania, Colombia, Cameroon, Jamaica and Egypt??? (Just in case I'm misunderstood - I don't endorse these ideas, just kind of trying to think like a white British racist)

[The Nihilistic view]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

get boris and the corpos to cough up the money then

[Ifreann]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

That's a weird way to spell "cut benefits".

[The Archregimancy]

(Image)

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

[Keira]

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

Huh??? Where did I say anything of the sort?

This feels like you wanted to vent, and then impulsively chose to do so by aggressing on a soft/random target. Not very nice.

[Dakini]

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

I'm Canadian with a surname that is either Central or Eastern European (depending how you count Czechia) and nobody even questioned my surname in a rude way while I was living in the UK. But then I was living in Edinburgh, which voted something like 75% Remain (and the part of Edinburgh I lived in was something like 90% Remain) so it might depend where you are, but I got treated as the "right sort" of immigrant most of the time (the worst that usually happened is someone mistook me for an American or a tourist).

I mean, one of my partner's colleagues here was living in London for a while and people would get really rude to him as soon as they learned he was from Romania (which is part of why he moved back to Romania). So I'm aware that it can be pretty shitty.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

Any more talk like that and Rees-Mogg will set the hounds on you.

[Old Tyrannia]

(Image)

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK (myself included). My town has never been more Eastern European (and brown) than it is right now. Although a good chunk of EU citizens have left, I'm guessing Covid has a lot to do with this as well.

The fruit processing factory where my mum works is also lacking workers, I'm told.

But yeah, sucks to suck, nationalists.

...Like, Brexit didn't even make sense even if you were a nationalists afraid of browner people than yourself. Why would you want to disconnect yourself from the whitest trade block in the world? And then become closer with and ease travel for citizens of countries like Albania, Colombia, Cameroon, Jamaica and Egypt??? (Just in case I'm misunderstood - I don't endorse these ideas, just kind of trying to think like a white British racist)

I find it hilarious that you're so wedded to the assumption that we're all racists that you remain convinced we're racist even whilst admitting yourself that our actions wouldn't make sense if racism were the motivation.

[Keira]

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK (myself included). My town has never been more Eastern European (and brown) than it is right now. Although a good chunk of EU citizens have left, I'm guessing Covid has a lot to do with this as well.

The fruit processing factory where my mum works is also lacking workers, I'm told.

But yeah, sucks to suck, nationalists.

...Like, Brexit didn't even make sense even if you were a nationalists afraid of browner people than yourself. Why would you want to disconnect yourself from the whitest trade block in the world? And then become closer with and ease travel for citizens of countries like Albania, Colombia, Cameroon, Jamaica and Egypt??? (Just in case I'm misunderstood - I don't endorse these ideas, just kind of trying to think like a white British racist)

I find it hilarious that you're so wedded to the assumption that we're all racists that you remain convinced we're racist even whilst admitting yourself that our actions wouldn't make sense if racism were the motivation.

I said "Brexit didn't make sense EVEN if you were [racist]". I didn't say that all leave voters were racists or that racism was their main motivation.

[The Archregimancy]

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

Huh??? Where did I say anything of the sort?

This feels like you wanted to vent, and then impulsively chose to do so by aggressing on a soft/random target. Not very nice.

I think you misunderstood my post.

It wasn't remotely a negative comment directed at your good self; it was a general comment that was building on your post in a spirit of support rather than opposition.

[The Archregimancy]

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

I'm Canadian with a surname that is either Central or Eastern European (depending how you count Czechia) and nobody even questioned my surname in a rude way while I was living in the UK. But then I was living in Edinburgh, which voted something like 75% Remain (and the part of Edinburgh I lived in was something like 90% Remain) so it might depend where you are, but I got treated as the "right sort" of immigrant most of the time (the worst that usually happened is someone mistook me for an American or a tourist).

I think the reaction that people with Slavic/Baltic backgrounds receive depends on where in the UK they live.

I doubt many people would blink in Edinburgh (and I'm a former Edinburgh resident myself) or London.

Where we currently live in the West Midlands, though.... Before we bought our current house, we were renting from a woman who turned out to be a UKIP activist (this was when UKIP was the main Brexit party). When we handed in our notice, she subjected my wife to a 15 minute rant about Eastern Europeans with funny accents ruining the country, not realising that my wife (who took my surname rather than keep her Russian-Latvian surname) was herself an Eastern European. After the rant was over, there was an awkward pause before my wife just said 'I'm Russian'.

We never heard from her again.

But yes, it still rankles. So long as she thought my wife was Australian, then my wife was 'safe'. The moment she realised my wife was Russian, then it mattered. And while I'm focusing on just one person to make the point, this is an attitude we've faced on several occasions.

Who knows; maybe the Gadirova twins will make a slight difference here.

[Keira]

Huh??? Where did I say anything of the sort?

This feels like you wanted to vent, and then impulsively chose to do so by aggressing on a soft/random target. Not very nice.

I think you misunderstood my post.

It wasn't remotely directed at you, nor was it a negative comment on your good self; it was a general comment that was building on your post in a spirit of support rather than opposition.

Ah, gotcha! I think I mainly got confused because your post didn't sound like a reply to anything I said. I mean, I wasn't even talking about my negative experiences as a Lithuanian in UK, so even if you meant it in a spirit of support, it's still kind of random.

Although, now that you've started...

I've noticed, once more and more Balkan and Romani people started arriving to my town, I started receiving nicer treatment. Suddenly, there were "worse" type of immigrants in town, and now I was "one of the better ones".

Another experience of semi-positive discrimination I've had was when I used to go to a private dentist place which was run by Christian UKIP activist ladies. They were super nice to me and would casually talk to me about Christian-related stuff, because they were assuming that all Eastern Europeans are super Christian, "unlike dem westerners who are letting go of their roots" or something. When I checked my dentist's Facebook profile (she was a cute milf okayyyy) I found one of those "don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas!" and "Islam is taking over" meme-y image posts.

If you're interested in hearing my more negative experiences, though, I wouldn't necessarily mind sharing/venting.

[The Nihilistic view]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

Any more talk like that and Rees-Mogg will set the hounds on you.

It's the solution if you are a marketeer, cut the unlimited supply of cheap labour watch as wages go up. And I've had a look this evening and they seem to be, in some cases up towards £20 an hour. Next stage will be more casual workers taking jobs in the sector because of the increased pay.

I think I'd have to put the moggster on the rack if he felt that way.

[The Nihilistic view]

This isn't a problem, this is how Labour markets are supposed to work. It's only seen as a problem by certain people because they have become addicted to unlimited cheap immigrant Labour for the last 20 years. Picking fruit should be an above minimum wage job, it's a harder more demanding job than dossing about in a retail shop for many reasons. The people doing the job have been underpaid for a long time compared to what they would earn in a market with a better balance between demand and supply. If you had the choice between picking fruit or some retail shop for the same pay the vast majority of people will pick the retail job.

Most of you think the minimum wage is too low, so this really should be celebrated. Brexit in this case for the workers is an opportunity to see a higher wage. So you shouldn't complain about it. And yes it will add a bit to the price of fruit and veg in the supermarkets but regardless of how the wage level was increased an increase to the wage levels is what you guys want to see. But where else is the money going to come from but from an increase to the price of the end product. But this is how a functioning market is supposed to work.

These things are not usually instant but filter through over a period of time. So for a brexit supporting free marketeer this is a good sign and so far follows what I hoped would happen. The minimum wage should be a minimum wage not thee wage, a wage most people earn more than. However when you basically have an unlimited unskilled Labour supply feeding into an economy the minimum wage or a tiny bit above becomes the only wage on offer in certain industries. This is only one industry and probably the one that I would expect to see the biggest jump but I hope to varying degrees it puts pressure on other industries overtime.

[Celritannia]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

You mean like how the Tories froze wages for public sector workers?

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

They tried this early on after Brexit, it did not end well.

https://theconversation.com/the-real-re ... ruit-80152

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 69806.html

[Hirota]

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

It's a convenient narrative, but not entirely that simple. Aside from the fact one of your own articles demonstrates it's untrue that nobody bothered to apply, and also completely contradicts one of your other articles which claimed nobody was applying.

[Dakini]

I'm Canadian with a surname that is either Central or Eastern European (depending how you count Czechia) and nobody even questioned my surname in a rude way while I was living in the UK. But then I was living in Edinburgh, which voted something like 75% Remain (and the part of Edinburgh I lived in was something like 90% Remain) so it might depend where you are, but I got treated as the "right sort" of immigrant most of the time (the worst that usually happened is someone mistook me for an American or a tourist).

I think the reaction that people with Slavic/Baltic backgrounds receive depends on where in the UK they live.

I doubt many people would blink in Edinburgh (and I'm a former Edinburgh resident myself) or London.

Where we currently live in the West Midlands, though.... Before we bought our current house, we were renting from a woman who turned out to be a UKIP activist (this was when UKIP was the main Brexit party). When we handed in our notice, she subjected my wife to a 15 minute rant about Eastern Europeans with funny accents ruining the country, not realising that my wife (who took my surname rather than keep her Russian-Latvian surname) was herself an Eastern European. After the rant was over, there was an awkward pause before my wife just said 'I'm Russian'.

We never heard from her again.

But yes, it still rankles. So long as she thought my wife was Australian, then my wife was 'safe'. The moment she realised my wife was Russian, then it mattered. And while I'm focusing on just one person to make the point, this is an attitude we've faced on several occasions.

Who knows; maybe the Gadirova twins will make a slight difference here.

Eeesh, awkward. My landlord's son, who basically functioned as our property manager, would say some pretty shitty things about how Eastern Europeans don't have the same cultural values and so on, but how Commonwealth citizens like Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders were totally cool. Then I'd ask him about the Commonwealth citizens of India or Nigeria and he'd dodge the question. But this guy was English, not Scottish (and the sort of English guy with a super posh accent who didn't actually do anything useful in life because his parents are solidly middle or upper class).

[CoraSpia]

I mean, there are still lots of Eastern Europeans in UK

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

Well, there are plenty of Australians with highly suspicious last names, some of them even sound Greek or, as bad as this might sound, Italian. Thankfully they have largely merged into Australia and are happily eating barbecues and pavlova like the Australians whose ancestors came over in the way that good honest immigrants do: on prison ships.

[CoraSpia]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

You mean like how the Tories froze wages for public sector workers?

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

They tried this early on after Brexit, it did not end well.

https://theconversation.com/the-real-re ... ruit-80152

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 69806.html

The freezing of wages for public sector workers is part of the plan. The left knows there's a plan, they know what the plan is, they know what the end result of the plan will be, they know how the plan works and they do nothing about the plan. Sounds to me like there's a national political consensus for demoralising public sector workers until the services fall apart and selling what's left to American billionaires.

[Celritannia]

You mean like how the Tories froze wages for public sector workers?

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

They tried this early on after Brexit, it did not end well.

https://theconversation.com/the-real-re ... ruit-80152

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 69806.html

The freezing of wages for public sector workers is part of the plan. The left knows there's a plan, they know what the plan is, they know what the end result of the plan will be, they know how the plan works and they do nothing about the plan. Sounds to me like there's a national political consensus for demoralising public sector workers until the services fall apart and selling what's left to American billionaires.

Well... this is a hot take.

[The Archregimancy]

I often wonder...

Is my wife the right sort of immigrant because she has an Australian passport (the Commonwealth; huzzahs!)

Or is she the wrong sort of immigrant because her family are all Eastern European refugees (bloody foreigners; boo...)

She's faced both sort of reactions, incidentally; so please don't try and tell me that this is an abstract issue we shouldn't worry about.

Well, there are plenty of Australians with highly suspicious last names, some of them even sound Greek or, as bad as this might sound, Italian. Thankfully they have largely merged into Australia and are happily eating barbecues and pavlova like the Australians whose ancestors came over in the way that good honest immigrants do: on prison ships.

Related true story that emphasises how you have to be very careful about phrasing when moving between different English-speaking countries; even Commonwealth countries.

In Australia, local Greeks and Italians are often referred to affectionately within and between those communities as 'wogs'. Russian-Australians often jokingly refer to themselves as 'honorary wogs'. While it was originally a slur, it's subsequently been embraced by the relevant communities.

When we moved to the UK, I had to explain to Mrs Arch that under no circumstances whatsoever could she ever use that word in public if she wanted to avoid difficult ... misunderstandings. She simply didn't realise its broader context.

Similarly, 'Paki' is still sometimes used as innocent shorthand in Australia along the same lines as 'Aussie', 'Kiwi', or 'Pom', and with little awareness of how the term is used in the UK; so I had to warn her off that one as well.

[CoraSpia]

The freezing of wages for public sector workers is part of the plan. The left knows there's a plan, they know what the plan is, they know what the end result of the plan will be, they know how the plan works and they do nothing about the plan. Sounds to me like there's a national political consensus for demoralising public sector workers until the services fall apart and selling what's left to American billionaires.

Well... this is a hot take.

It's so obvious what's been going on for many, many years though. If labour truly wanted to, they could put this closer to the centre of their manifesto and point out everything that's happening that works towards this. They either don't do it because they're stupid or they don't do it because they're part of the same political club that is aware of two important things: that things are coming down in Britain and that they're in a great position to take advantage of what happens when they do. The biggest con that both of these parties play is convincing sections of society that they have their best interests at heart.

[The Nihilistic view]

Or you know pay decent wages and then people will consider doing the job.

You mean like how the Tories froze wages for public sector workers?

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

They tried this early on after Brexit, it did not end well.

https://theconversation.com/the-real-re ... ruit-80152

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 69806.html

You know what a major problem is they all highlight? Pay and conditions. It's like I've been talking about this........

They are also all from the time where instead of working out a new buisness model they have been moaning about a need for cheap labour whilst not offering a wage that the job justifies. It's clear the industry is still more like 19th century than the 21st. And investment in equipment along with pay and working practices that fit the 21st century is needed if they want to stay in buisness and attract workers.

[CoraSpia]

You mean like how the Tories froze wages for public sector workers?

Plus, Britons don't want to do farm work, no matter how much money there will be. The Farmers won't be able to offer it, and the people generally do not like this sort of hard labour work anymore.

They tried this early on after Brexit, it did not end well.

https://theconversation.com/the-real-re ... ruit-80152

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 69806.html

You know what a major problem is they all highlight? Pay and conditions. It's like I've been talking about this........

They are also all from the time where instead of working out a new buisness model they have been moaning about a need for cheap labour whilst not offering a wage that the job justifies. It's clear the industry is still more like 19th century than the 21st. And investment in equipment along with pay and working practices that fit the 21st century is needed if they want to stay in buisness and attract workers.

The immigration debate isn't actually about helping people 'find a better life' etc, from either side. The left wants people to come and work in terrible conditions in this country, the right just wants to export the problem to another.