UK Politics Thread IX: Try turning the UK off and on again.

[The Nihilistic view]

A devolved Yorkshire Parliament is far more likely than an independent United North. Its absolutely stupid.

I mean, if the idea was for the various counties to have their own devolved parliaments (but to remain part of the UK), with control over finances, for instance, (a devolved Cumbria, a devolved Northumberland, a devolved Yorkshire, a devolved Lancashire and devolved Lincolnshire)... that might be something that people would actually consider a realistic proposition.

Doesn't really work in a country this small. It can be a problem in America with regards to different state taxes distorting behaviour.

[Celritannia]

I mean, if the idea was for the various counties to have their own devolved parliaments (but to remain part of the UK), with control over finances, for instance, (a devolved Cumbria, a devolved Northumberland, a devolved Yorkshire, a devolved Lancashire and devolved Lincolnshire)... that might be something that people would actually consider a realistic proposition.

Doesn't really work in a country this small. It can be a problem in America with regards to different state taxes distorting behaviour.

Have you let Switzerland, Malaysia, and Belgium know they are too small to be federal countries?
Also, a population of the country matters just as much as area when it comes to a federation.

[The Nihilistic view]

So, who do you think is going to be Tory leader after BoJo? My money is on Priti Patel

I'd guess Rishi Sunak. I hear he's a superhero of some kind.

The Borrower

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Look I'm not really for all this 'break the UK up further' business, but if it ends with me commanding a motte and bailey and my own personal Barony then I might have to sign up.

[Celritannia]

Look I'm not really for all this 'break the UK up further' business, but if it ends with me commanding a motte and bailey and my own personal Barony then I might have to sign up.

His Lordship, Baron "The Mad" Jack.

[The New California Republic]

Look I'm not really for all this 'break the UK up further' business, but if it ends with me commanding a motte and bailey and my own personal Barony then I might have to sign up.

I would ask for my ancestral lands back, but the whole area is quite rough now, so I don't want to become a slum lord overnight.

[The Nihilistic view]

Doesn't really work in a country this small. It can be a problem in America with regards to different state taxes distorting behaviour.

Have you let Switzerland, Malaysia, and Belgium know they are too small to be federal countries?

I've not looked into it but if they have different rates for various taxes that will distort economic and residency decisions.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Motte and Bailey always sounds to me like a really naff detective duo on daytime TV.

[The New California Republic]

Motte and Bailey always sounds to me like a really naff detective duo on daytime TV.

It has a Scottish spinoff of a crimefighting trio as well: Haggis, Neeps and Tatties, valiantly stopping the heroin smuggling to being Scotland's high rate of drug deaths down.

[Celritannia]

Have you let Switzerland, Malaysia, and Belgium know they are too small to be federal countries?

I've not looked into it but if they have different rates for various taxes that will distort economic and residency decisions.

Taxes wont distort the UK at a federal level, it will make taxes fairer and more equal.
Look at how the Tories have given an increase of budgets to only Tory controlled local English councils.

We need a Federal UK to remove the control from the elected single party dictatorship in Westminster, and allow each region to have control over certain issues.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Motte and Bailey always sounds to me like a really naff detective duo on daytime TV.

It has a Scottish spinoff of a crimefighting trio as well: Haggis, Neeps and Tatties, valiantly stopping the heroin smuggling to being Scotland's high rate of drug deaths down.

Can they take down the Morningside Mafia...

[The Nihilistic view]

I've not looked into it but if they have different rates for various taxes that will distort economic and residency decisions.

Taxes wont distort the UK at a federal level, it will make taxes fairer and more equal.
Look at how the Tories have given an increase of budgets to only Tory controlled local English councils.

We need a Federal UK to remove the control from the elected single party dictatorship in Westminster, and allow each region to have control over certain issues.

Local fiscal autonomy can lead to distorting behaviour. Rich regions like the South East takes more tax than it spends, so when they become responsible for a large part of their spending and thus revenue raising they will cut taxes because they don't need the money. Regions like the Midlands spends more than its current tax contribution so will have to put it's local taxes up or cut services. So rich people move to the south East creating an even bigger asset price bubble but also further balloning the tax take of the South East. Rich people leave Midlands because they want to pay less tax so you further exacerbate the problem. You could commute to the Midlands from the wealthy areas that will probably have lower tax I the end.

I don't think it works anyway in the end but with the concentration of wealth and income that you already have in the UK with just three regions actually giving you a surplus you are going to see tax policy at a regional and local level have to reflect that. That's actually not just really harmful for the poor regions but harmful for the poorer or younger people in the three wealthy regions as the asset price increase you'd see will further price them out of the market and leave them either stuck renting or they have to commute from a region where they are paying more tax if they want to buy.

The UK isn't a big enough country for this sort of thing to not matter so much, its not like America. Its doesn't matter that California has a high state tax because anywhere else is far too far away from the major economic zones in California that unless you are private Jet level wealthy you can't live somewhere else. People just have to put up with it if they want to work there.

And that's just Income tax. Start throwing things like sales, capital gains and inheritance tax into the mix and you start to do this on a federal, regional and local level and things start to get seriously complicated. The great thing about our tax system is that for 99% of people it's supper simple.

[The New California Republic]

It has a Scottish spinoff of a crimefighting trio as well: Haggis, Neeps and Tatties, valiantly stopping the heroin smuggling to being Scotland's high rate of drug deaths down.

Can they take down the Morningside Mafia...

Yes but they are saving that for the final episode.

[The Nihilistic view]

From that point of view I'd actually love it, I'd probably see a slightly lower income tax. I'd probably see inheritance tax thresholds massively increased. The really big one would be capital gains, I bet that would get slashed because so many people have second properties or other chargeable assets. Oh and we are going to have a sustained house price rise thrown into the mix so those already with properties are going to see a nice little profit? Yes please.

And the regional parliment will be perpetually Tory pretty much. My county council has been Tory in all but one election since 1973 and its not much different for any other county around here.

From a tax point of view a federalised UK would be excellent for me but what the North and Scotland gonna do when it turns out they got no money?

[Celritannia]

Taxes wont distort the UK at a federal level, it will make taxes fairer and more equal.
Look at how the Tories have given an increase of budgets to only Tory controlled local English councils.

We need a Federal UK to remove the control from the elected single party dictatorship in Westminster, and allow each region to have control over certain issues.

Local fiscal autonomy can lead to distorting behaviour. Rich regions like the South East takes more tax than it spends, so when they become responsible for a large part of their spending and thus revenue raising they will cut taxes because they don't need the money. Regions like the Midlands spends more than its current tax contribution so will have to put it's local taxes up or cut services. So rich people move to the south East creating an even bigger asset price bubble but also further balloning the tax take of the South East. Rich people leave Midlands because they want to pay less tax so you further exacerbate the problem. You could commute to the Midlands from the wealthy areas that will probably have lower tax I the end.

I don't think it works anyway in the end but with the concentration of wealth and income that you already have in the UK with just three regions actually giving you a surplus you are going to see tax policy at a regional and local level have to reflect that. That's actually not just really harmful for the poor regions but harmful for the poorer or younger people in the three wealthy regions as the asset price increase you'd see will further price them out of the market and leave them either stuck renting or they have to commute from a region where they are paying more tax if they want to buy.

The UK isn't a big enough country for this sort of thing to not matter so much, its not like America. Its doesn't matter that California has a high state tax because anywhere else is far too far away from the major economic zones in California that unless you are private Jet level wealthy you can't live somewhere else. People just have to put up with it if they want to work there.

And that's just Income tax. Start throwing things like sales, capital gains and inheritance tax into the mix and you start to do this on a federal, regional and local level and things start to get seriously complicated. The great thing about our tax system is that for 99% of people it's supper simple.

The UK is large enough, has the population, and the ability to become federal.
You have each Region to spend money how they wish, than Westminster dictating who gets what.

Also, I love how you say federalisation would make people poorer, while a 10 year tory government has done that already. Absolutely laughable for you to say really.

[The Nihilistic view]

Local fiscal autonomy can lead to distorting behaviour. Rich regions like the South East takes more tax than it spends, so when they become responsible for a large part of their spending and thus revenue raising they will cut taxes because they don't need the money. Regions like the Midlands spends more than its current tax contribution so will have to put it's local taxes up or cut services. So rich people move to the south East creating an even bigger asset price bubble but also further balloning the tax take of the South East. Rich people leave Midlands because they want to pay less tax so you further exacerbate the problem. You could commute to the Midlands from the wealthy areas that will probably have lower tax I the end.

I don't think it works anyway in the end but with the concentration of wealth and income that you already have in the UK with just three regions actually giving you a surplus you are going to see tax policy at a regional and local level have to reflect that. That's actually not just really harmful for the poor regions but harmful for the poorer or younger people in the three wealthy regions as the asset price increase you'd see will further price them out of the market and leave them either stuck renting or they have to commute from a region where they are paying more tax if they want to buy.

The UK isn't a big enough country for this sort of thing to not matter so much, its not like America. Its doesn't matter that California has a high state tax because anywhere else is far too far away from the major economic zones in California that unless you are private Jet level wealthy you can't live somewhere else. People just have to put up with it if they want to work there.

And that's just Income tax. Start throwing things like sales, capital gains and inheritance tax into the mix and you start to do this on a federal, regional and local level and things start to get seriously complicated. The great thing about our tax system is that for 99% of people it's supper simple.

The UK is large enough, has the population, and the ability to become federal.

Thank you for your detailed rebuttal.

[Celritannia]

From that point of view I'd actually love it, I'd probably see a slightly lower income tax. I'd probably see inheritance tax thresholds massively increased. The really big one would be capital gains, I bet that would get slashed because so many people have second properties or other chargeable assets. Oh and we are going to have a sustained house price rise thrown into the mix so those already with properties are going to see a nice little profit? Yes please.

And the regional parliment will be perpetually Tory pretty much. My county council has been Tory in all but one election since 1973 and its not much different for any other county around here.

From a tax point of view a federalised UK would be excellent for me but what the North and Scotland gonna do when it turns out they got no money?

You would allow PR or AM for each Regional Parliament though.

Scotland and Wales actually show devolution, and federalisation is possible.

[Celritannia]

The UK is large enough, has the population, and the ability to become federal.

Thank you for your detailed rebuttal.

Because this isn't even accurate.

[The Nihilistic view]

From that point of view I'd actually love it, I'd probably see a slightly lower income tax. I'd probably see inheritance tax thresholds massively increased. The really big one would be capital gains, I bet that would get slashed because so many people have second properties or other chargeable assets. Oh and we are going to have a sustained house price rise thrown into the mix so those already with properties are going to see a nice little profit? Yes please.

And the regional parliment will be perpetually Tory pretty much. My county council has been Tory in all but one election since 1973 and its not much different for any other county around here.

From a tax point of view a federalised UK would be excellent for me but what the North and Scotland gonna do when it turns out they got no money?

You would allow PR or AM for each Regional Parliament though.

Scotland and Wales actually show devolution, and federalisation is possible.

Doesn't matter, conservative or a few years ago before the EU referendum conservative and UKIP is normally around or over 50% of the vote.

You seriously underestimate how blue most of the South East is. The 2019 general election had us on 54% of the vote and that's normally not quite as good.

[Kowani]

British Army set to recruit bomb sniffing rats after Porton Down scientists designed a high-tech system to train rodents

[The Nihilistic view]

Thank you for your detailed rebuttal.

Because this isn't even accurate.

Because you have said literally nothing about the potential problem regions would have fiscally when you give them revenue rasing powers and cut national taxes to reflect the reduced responsibility that Westminster now has.

I think therefore I am....... you could make the UK the Kingdom of the kazoo, just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea. If you can't write a single word in defence of federalism against one set of potential fiscal problems it's probably a sign it's not a good idea.

[Celritannia]

You would allow PR or AM for each Regional Parliament though.

Scotland and Wales actually show devolution, and federalisation is possible.

Doesn't matter, conservative or a few years ago before the EU referendum conservative and UKIP is normally around or over 50% of the vote.

You seriously underestimate how blue most of the South East is. The 2019 general election had us on 54% of the vote and that's normally not quite as good.

Sure, in the South, but That would be within that devolved Legislature.
They would still be able to spend money how they see fit, and oversee issues which they can focus on, like education, policing, environment, instead of waiting for central government all the time.

A federal UK will help places deal with situations without waiting for action by Westminster. Too much control from a central authority limits reactions from local areas. A Federal system allows this.

[Celritannia]

Because this isn't even accurate.

Because you have said literally nothing about the potential problem regions would have fiscally when you give them revenue rasing powers and cut national taxes to reflect the reduced responsibility that Westminster now has.

I think therefore I am....... you could make the UK the Kingdom of the kazoo, just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea. If you can't write a single word in defence of federalism against one set of potential fiscal problems it's probably a sign it's not a good idea.

We already have examples to follow, like Scotland and Wales, so how can we not do it?

[The Nihilistic view]

Because you have said literally nothing about the potential problem regions would have fiscally when you give them revenue rasing powers and cut national taxes to reflect the reduced responsibility that Westminster now has.

I think therefore I am....... you could make the UK the Kingdom of the kazoo, just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea. If you can't write a single word in defence of federalism against one set of potential fiscal problems it's probably a sign it's not a good idea.

We already have examples to follow, like Scotland and Wales, so how can we not do it?

We have examples of devolution with almost zero fiscal devolution.

[Celritannia]

We already have examples to follow, like Scotland and Wales, so how can we not do it?

We have examples of devolution with almost zero fiscal devolution.

Because the Central Government would require less funding if more authority was federalised to the Regional federal parliaments.