67 Palestinian and 7 Israeli Civilians Killed in Conflict

[Dowaesk]

We need to cut off all economic and financial access to Israel, impose a UN no fly zone and deploy peace keepers to the West Bank as well as Jerusalem. The latter shall be declared an international city under joint administration, administered by Pakistani, Sudanese, and Bolivian troops. While you're at it, arrest and shut down the ADL and AIFPAC for being unregistered foreign agents.

Nah nah. Thats too extreme. That wouldn't even be implemented during a war.

[Major-Tom]

You can't solve these increasing tensions through new policy alone, but the increasingly vitriolic rhetoric that has been used by Netanyahu and similar right-populist/hardcore right parties in Israel has only contributed to this. They're taking on a rhetorical space that almost equals that of the anti-semitic bile spouted by Hamas or Fatah.

I don't know how you can get those groups to settle down to let cooler heads prevail, I just don't.

[Jarvikan]

Why?Israel offered a great deal,yet they refused it after coming up with some of the best lies ever made.2000.

[citation needed]

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pr ... vid-summit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp ... #Aftermath
You should be able to find on YouTube when Arafat said of how Palestine will have overland control with the Golden Dome and areas with the former Solomon Temple as “the mosque was there first”.Clinton interrupted with “When my Jesus was in Jerusalem,there was no mosque!There was only the Jewish temple!”

[Nakena]

We need to cut off all economic and financial access to Israel, impose a UN no fly zone and deploy peace keepers to the West Bank as well as Jerusalem. The latter shall be declared an international city under joint administration, administered by Pakistani, Sudanese, and Bolivian troops. While you're at it, arrest and shut down the ADL and AIFPAC for being unregistered foreign agents.

Nah nah. Thats too extreme. That wouldn't even be implemented during a war.

It was has been done to other countries though who were considered bad by the so-called international community such as Iraq and Yugoslavia.

[Dowaesk]

So if Hitler won. All his crimes would be justified?

Don't ask him that. Please do not ask Sai if hitler's crimes were justified cause you won't like the answer you get.

Dont worry. I know Saiwania. Im expecting quite a nice answer.

[Nakena]

So if Hitler won. All his crimes would be justified?

It depends. History is written by the victor. If we go by Robert Harris Fatherland alt history, maybe we would have now a lot of memorials about the Holodemor and various stalinist atrocities instead of those of the Holocaust etc. Who knows.

[Columbestria]

snip

For a second when I saw this topic, I thought this was one of your roleplays, until I saw the news article. Hopefully the Israelis and Palestinians can come to a peaceful conclusion, though I doubt it considering the history between these two.

[Dowaesk]

[citation needed]

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pr ... vid-summit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp ... #Aftermath
You should be able to find on YouTube when Arafat said of how Palestine will have overland control with the Golden Dome and areas with the former Solomon Temple as “the mosque was there first”.Clinton interrupted with “When my Jesus was in Jerusalem,there was no mosque!There was only the Jewish temple!”

Islam didnt exist back in the time of Jesus. If Christianity hadnt been tampered with. We'd be Christians too.

[Jarvikan]

Why?Israel offered a great deal,yet they refused it after coming up with some of the best lies ever made.2000.

"We take half your land including the vast majority of the coast" isn't a great deal.

Giving 93% of the West Bank,taking all soldiers out in both there and Jordan within 3 years,full recognition and helping a Palestinian Security Force training is a great deal to me

[Jarvikan]

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pr ... vid-summit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp ... #Aftermath
You should be able to find on YouTube when Arafat said of how Palestine will have overland control with the Golden Dome and areas with the former Solomon Temple as “the mosque was there first”.Clinton interrupted with “When my Jesus was in Jerusalem,there was no mosque!There was only the Jewish temple!”

Islam didnt exist back in the time of Jesus. If Christianity hadnt been tampered with. We'd be Christians too.

That was his point.The temple came 1400 years before the mosque

[Theriok]

History is written by the victor. If we go by Robert Harris Fatherland alt history, maybe we would have now a lot of memorials about the Holodemor and various stalinist atrocities instead of those of the Holocaust etc. Who knows.

People need to stop repeating this high-school tier oversimplification.

History is written by historians. Sometimes, they are, by gunpoint or financial incentive, persuaded by the government to write lies (or "alternative facts").

In reality, we have plenty of books detailing the crimes of the Romans, the United States, the British Empire, the USSR, etc., all "victors" in history. The U.S. even allows its citizens to openly decry the country's crimes without any sanction whatsoever, despite being the indisputable victor.

[Dowaesk]

"We take half your land including the vast majority of the coast" isn't a great deal.

Giving 93% of the West Bank,taking all soldiers out in both there and Jordan within 3 years,full recognition and helping a Palestinian Security Force train is a great deal to me

Giving 93%. Nah. They didnt give an inch. Its just illusions and Israeli propaganda. I got a Jewish/Israeli friend living in the West Bank who admitted so.

[Nakena]

History is written by the victor. If we go by Robert Harris Fatherland alt history, maybe we would have now a lot of memorials about the Holodemor and various stalinist atrocities instead of those of the Holocaust etc. Who knows.

People need to stop repeating this high-school tier oversimplification.

History is written by historians. Sometimes, they are, by gunpoint or financial incentive, persuaded by the government to write lies (or "alternative facts").

In reality, we have plenty of books detailing the crimes of the Romans, the United States, the British Empire, the USSR, etc., all "victors" in history. The U.S. even allows its citizens to openly decry the country's crimes without any sanction whatsoever, despite being the indisputable victor.

The thing is though that most people, including here and specifically here on NSG, are heavily indulging in high-school tier oversimplification as does mainstream media and pop-history.

Things that are not in the spotlight receive little to no attention and certain narratives are preferred over others.

[Jarvikan]

Giving 93% of the West Bank,taking all soldiers out in both there and Jordan within 3 years,full recognition and helping a Palestinian Security Force train is a great deal to me

Giving 93%. Nah. They didnt give an inch. Its just illusions and Israeli propaganda. I got a Jewish/Israeli friend living in the West Bank who admitted so.

Palestine rejected the plan to give them that much.Didn’t you know that the Camp David plan fell through?

[Aspistan]

What makes them entitled or not? Generally, people of an oppressed or exploited nationality, who want a state, should get one. That includes not just the Jews but also the Kurds, Amerindians, and the Black nation.

For me, that is more and not less reason to not give some group a state. I'm not going to reward weakness more often than not. I'm far more impressed by dominant groups or empires. Why would the stronger faction give any concessions to the weaker or defeated faction where that isn't necessary? What is in it for them?

Only those peoples who've won successful wars of secession or independence should be given a state.

Gross social darwinism. Please never gain any political power.

[Dowaesk]

Islam didnt exist back in the time of Jesus. If Christianity hadnt been tampered with. We'd be Christians too.

That was his point.The temple came 1400 years before the mosque

Then the Romans destroyed the temple didnt they? Then we Muslims rebuilt the temple or in which case the Mosque above the temple that is in ruins. So now, the Jews want to destroy our Holy Mosque of Aqsa in order to have their temple back?

[Theriok]

People need to stop repeating this high-school tier oversimplification.

History is written by historians. Sometimes, they are, by gunpoint or financial incentive, persuaded by the government to write lies (or "alternative facts").

In reality, we have plenty of books detailing the crimes of the Romans, the United States, the British Empire, the USSR, etc., all "victors" in history. The U.S. even allows its citizens to openly decry the country's crimes without any sanction whatsoever, despite being the indisputable victor.

The thing is though that most people, including here and specifically here on NSG, are heavily indulging in high-school tier oversimplification as does mainstream media and pop-history.

Things that are not in the spotlight receive little to no attention and certain narratives are preferred over others.

That is a question of pop media and propaganda, not how history "is written." History could be written in a way that is indisputable that Event X happened, but a successful propaganda campaign could convince someone it didn't, regardless of who the prior victor is.

[Jarvikan]

That was his point.The temple came 1400 years before the mosque

Then the Romans destroyed the temple didnt they? Then we Muslims rebuilt the temple or in which case the Mosque above the temple that is in ruins. So now, the Jews want to destroy our Holy Mosque of Aqsa in order to have their temple back?

When the hell did I ever mention destroying it?The Muslims didn’t rebuild it.They put another religion’s holy building on it’s ruins

[Theriok]

People need to stop repeating this high-school tier oversimplification.

History is written by historians. Sometimes, they are, by gunpoint or financial incentive, persuaded by the government to write lies (or "alternative facts").

In reality, we have plenty of books detailing the crimes of the Romans, the United States, the British Empire, the USSR, etc., all "victors" in history. The U.S. even allows its citizens to openly decry the country's crimes without any sanction whatsoever, despite being the indisputable victor.

The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945

In the 1990s, the book became controversial in the context of a debate on war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht. While the book mentions investigations of German war crimes in Poland, the Soviet Union and elsewhere, about half of the archival records of the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau are missing, according to de Zayas, and those extant files concern primarily Soviet war crimes.

And yet countless literature exists depicting the Soviet war crimes in the Eastern Front.

See, e.g., The Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder.

[Nakena]

The thing is though that most people, including here and specifically here on NSG, are heavily indulging in high-school tier oversimplification as does mainstream media and pop-history.

Things that are not in the spotlight receive little to no attention and certain narratives are preferred over others.

That is a question of pop media and propaganda, not how history "is written." History could be written in a way that is indisputable that Event X happened, but a successful propaganda campaign could convince someone it didn't, regardless of who the prior victor is.

Still it doesnt matters to the big narratives. Unfortunatly.

Thats why, in the White Supremacy thread, everyone screams fascism and invokes Hitler and Mussolini over US racial issues. When Jim Crow and Know Nothing are far more relevant to it.

People are ignorant. Including those who fancy themself to be better.

See, e.g., The Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder.

Thats a good choice.

[Theriok]

Still it doesnt matters to the big narratives. Unfortunatly.

Thats why, in the White Supremacy thread, everyone screams fascism and invokes Hitler and Mussolini over US racial issues. When Jim Crow and Know Nothing are far more relevant to it.

People are ignorant. Including those who fancy themself to be better.

It matters to any political discussion. Nobody here is running a political campaign - where it would be a fairly good idea to pick and choose what to focus on.

In an intellectual conversation, however, historical facts do matter.

[Theriok]

And yet countless literature exists depicting the Soviet war crimes in the Eastern Front.

See, e.g., The Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder.

You miss the point, however, which is that while all the files on the Soviets were left intact, the War Crimes Bureau had about half its files-including all of those related to Western Allied war crimes-disappear. You don't need an active propaganda campaign to suppress inconvenient facts about your nation if you actively destroy the evidence of it.

No, the selection you have specifically dealt with Soviet war crimes. The purpose of the bureau in general was to document the war crimes as recorded by the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau.

The war crimes committed by the Western Allies - which nearly universally included strategic decision like bombings, v. the wholesale slaughter of entire villages sanctioned by the Wehrmacht - is quite well-documented.

The selection you quoted, even, says the missing document primarily ascertains to alleged Soviet war crimes - which, again, are fairly well-documented, especially after the collapse of the USSR.

[Nakena]

Still it doesnt matters to the big narratives. Unfortunatly.

Thats why, in the White Supremacy thread, everyone screams fascism and invokes Hitler and Mussolini over US racial issues. When Jim Crow and Know Nothing are far more relevant to it.

People are ignorant. Including those who fancy themself to be better.

It matters to any political discussion. Nobody here is running a political campaign - where it would be a fairly good idea to pick and choose what to focus on.

In an intellectual conversation, however, historical facts do matter.

Don't get me wrong I wholeheartly agree with you here, but what I am saying is that in our current days a lot of people are running - also here - sort of a political campaign really. Or at least do as if that would be the case.

[Theriok]

No, the selection you have specifically dealt with Soviet war crimes. The purpose of the bureau in general was to document the war crimes as recorded by the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau.

The war crimes committed by the Western Allies - which nearly universally included strategic decision like bombings, v. the wholesale slaughter of entire villages sanctioned by the Wehrmacht - is quite well-documented.

The selection you quoted, even, says the missing document primarily ascertains to alleged Soviet war crimes - which, again, are fairly well-documented, especially after the collapse of the USSR.

So you don't know what the word extant means, I see? Let me help you:

1a: currently or actually existing
the most charming writer extant
— G. W. Johnson
b: still existing : not destroyed or lost
extant manuscripts

So let's go back to the cited paragraph, shall we?

In the 1990s, the book became controversial in the context of a debate on war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht. While the book mentions investigations of German war crimes in Poland, the Soviet Union and elsewhere, about half of the archival records of the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau are missing, according to de Zayas, and those extant files concern primarily Soviet war crimes.

i.e. the Soviet files are fine and always were, even before the end of the Cold War. Those concerning the other fronts-against the Western Allies-were largely destroyed. That you think Western Allies war crimes only extend to strategic bombing tells me how woefully misinformed you are on this subject.

I understand you are clearly sympathetic to Wehrmacht and the Nazi cause, and have an ideological desire to prove the existence of some hypothetical epidemic of Allied war crimes and to downplay Nazi war crimes. You shouldn't let that drive cloud your interpretation of English grammar, however.

That sentence you bolded used the word those in reference to:

about half of the archival records of the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau are missing

It then describes those files as "extant," i.e. as you pointed out, existing. Construing together as a single unit of language, the author states that the "those" "missing files" are "extant" and describe "Soviet crimes."

[-Astoria-]

Obligatory /notamod, but Soviet/Nazi files & war crimes have nothing to do with east Jerusalem.